Inside Dublin’s Housing Crisis

02-12-2018 11:43am

Technocentral wrote: »

Word.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/29/empty-dublin-housing-crisis-airbnb-homelessness-landlords

This is it in a nutshell. Return these properties to the rental market and problem solved. “in August 2018, there were reckoned to be 3,165 entire properties listed on Airbnb in Dublin, compared with only 1,329 available for long-term rent.”

STB. · 02-12-2018 12:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

This is it in a nutshell. Return these properties to the rental market and problem solved. “in August 2018, there were reckoned to be 3,165 entire properties listed on Airbnb in Dublin, compared with only 1,329 available for long-term rent.”

These properties are privately owned.

It is not the job of private landlords to provide social or affordable housing. Its the states.

Direct your ire at the same government who have sat on their hands in the last 10 years.

The simple answer to why we got here can be traced back to the government handing back money to unsecured bondholders. As recent as 2011, this government could have saved €9 billion by imposing these losses on senior debt holders as advised by the NTMA, but didnt. That money would have built an awful lot of affordable and social housing.

Then, NAMA which disposed of all the distressed assets did not keep any for social housing etc. Why wasn't some of this ring fenced ? 90% of it was sold to large American Vulture Funds at a massive discount - (the IBRC sold 60% of assets to Lone Star Capital). Then you had a ludicrous situation that housing agencies were buying back off said vulture funds at market value.

Meanwhile this same government with everything sold off and fúck all money did nothing and here we are. We have a situation created by this FG government where we are in deep shít with no social housing built in the last 10 years other than the small percentages that must be built by developers as part of their planning permissions for large private housing market. Councils are building nothing.

In the absence of a housing strategy over the last 10 years and the culmination of a large shortfall of housing stock, the Government solution was to lean on private housing landlords and impose social housing obligations as if private landlords had some public service obligations. Meanwhile the root cause is not questioned. WTF where these voted in politicians doing for the last 10 years.

You couldn't make it up.

Graces7 · 02-12-2018 1:00pm

Augeo wrote: »

It's not uncommon here.
Much of the housing list consists of like minded folk looking for the free to them (it essentially is) forever home.

That she would then grouse about her child;s distress? Words there are none.

Graces7 · 02-12-2018 1:02pm

STB. wrote: »

These properties are privately owned.

It is not the job of private landlords to provide social or affordable housing. Its the states.

Hmmmmm....not sure on that one

02-12-2018 1:07pm

Graces7 wrote: »

That she would then grouse about her child;s distress? Words there are none.

Yes, it's terrible.
There are many in unsuitable emergency accommodation as they are not willing to lose their place on the list.
Sinn Fein had a "homeless" poster girl at the same game maybe two years ago.
There are all two many overly fond of the idea of their entitlement to a state supplied forever home.
These people are worsening the crisis and making attempts to solve or ease it very challenging.....

02-12-2018 1:07pm

Graces7 wrote: »

STB. wrote: »

These properties are privately owned.

It is not the job of private landlords to provide social or affordable housing. Its the states.

Hmmmmm....not sure on that one

And those privately owned houses, built as family homes, are being used as a business.

Also, people need to take personal responsibility for their own lives ie housing, food, clothing, etc.

STB. · 02-12-2018 1:10pm

Graces7 wrote: »

STB. wrote: »

These properties are privately owned.

It is not the job of private landlords to provide social or affordable housing. Its the states.

Hmmmmm....not sure on that one

What are you not sure about ?

You don't understand who is responsible for social housing provision ?

Deleted User wrote: »

And those privately owned houses, built as family homes, are being used as a business.

So what. What part of private ownership is not clear to you.

Graham · 02-12-2018 1:25pm

STB. wrote: »

So what. What part of private ownership is not clear to you.

Private ownership does not include the provision to opt-out of the planning regulations.

STB. · 02-12-2018 1:33pm

Graham wrote: »

Private ownership does not include the provision to opt-out of the planning regulations.

You better explain to me what part of the planning regulations you are talking about, especially in the context of what I responded to.

zell12 · 02-12-2018 1:33pm

66% of households own/mortgage their property.
They vote for those who maintain, increase, the value of their assets
Until that changes, the status quo will remain.

02-12-2018 1:35pm

STB. wrote: »

So what. What part of private ownership is not clear to you.

The bit that says that houses built or bought as private dwellings cannot be used as a business venture.

There was a time when someone on the housing list were given keys to a house and they got on with things. Nowadays, some who are on housing lists demand a house in a certain area, certain size and with a garden. It may sound harsh, but beggars cannot be choosers.

Graham · 02-12-2018 1:37pm

STB. wrote: »

You better explain to me what part of the planning regulations you are talking about.

I'll leave that to An Bord Pleanála:

the use of an entire residential apartment on a year-round basis for a series of short-term holiday lettings constitutes a change of use;
such change of use raises planning considerations that are materially different to the planning considerations relating to the ‘normal’ use as a residential apartment;
the change of use is a material change of use, and therefore constitutes ‘development’ under the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended; and
such ‘development’ is not exempted development, and therefore requires planning permission.

beauf · 02-12-2018 1:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

This is it in a nutshell. Return these properties to the rental market and problem solved. “in August 2018, there were reckoned to be 3,165 entire properties listed on Airbnb in Dublin, compared with only 1,329 available for long-term rent.”

There is net increase in population of 50~60k per year.

In 2017, local authorities and approved housing bodies built and bought 6,297 homes according to the figures. The target for 2018 is just 5,869.

The Department of Housing confirmed last month that the total number of houses built by local authorities in 2017 was 780.

More than 3,600 local authority homes lay vacant at the end of last year, with councils taking on average 28.9 weeks to re-let houses after they become vacant.

Fr McVerry says that there were 6,900 social homes built by councils in 1985, compared to 75 in 2015. ...

AirBnb is not the issue. It may not help. But even if it disappeared tomorrow the problem is far bigger than that.

Graham · 02-12-2018 1:43pm

beauf wrote: »

AirBnb is not the issue. It may not help. But even if it disappeared tomorrow the problem is far bigger than that.

It's been said many times. Enforcing planning regulations to return short-term lettings back to the residential market is not a silver-bullet. It is one of many actions that needs to be taken.

STB. · 02-12-2018 1:44pm

Graham wrote: »

I'll leave that to An Bord Pleanála:
the use of an entire residential apartment on a year-round basis for a series of short-term holiday lettings constitutes a change of use;

such change of use raises planning considerations that are materially different to the planning considerations relating to the ‘normal’ use as a residential apartment;

the change of use is a material change of use, and therefore constitutes ‘development’ under the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended; and

such ‘development’ is not exempted development, and therefore requires planning permission.

Ah I see we are talking at cross purposes. You are talking about AirBnB.

Deleted User wrote: »

The bit that says that houses built or bought as private dwellings cannot be used as a business venture.

Their is no such "bit". They CAN and ARE. Renting a property on a long term basis is a business venture and the tax man takes his cut.

Graham · 02-12-2018 1:46pm

STB. wrote: »

Ah I see we are talking at cross purposes. You are talking about AirBnB.

In the context of the last few posts discussing AirBnb and properties being used 'as a business venture', that would be my interpretation.

beauf · 02-12-2018 1:50pm

victor8600 wrote: »

Immigration is not a problem, unless suddenly the government decides to import a million refugees with no right to work and no skills. This is not going to happen. The fact is that people want to live in the country that has work and good prospects. If you have many immigrants coming into the country, it means the country is doing well.

Take a hypothetical construction worker from, say, Hungary, coming to Ireland. Let this person build you houses and in 10 years there will be no housing crisis. Why is this not happening? My guess is that there no political will to actually build anything. Even we take the approach that the free market will sort the problem out, the government needs to take action to make things such as high rise apartment building in the city possible, compulsory purchase orders on vacant sites etc.

That has nothing to do with the housing crisis. They still need somewhere to live now, not in 10yrs.

We have about 50~60k net population increase per year. Much of it Irish people returning home. We are building less housing than we have even done. So little in fact that even if our population didn't increase there still wouldn't be enough housing for many years.

We don't need rapid growth and boom and bust cycles. We need slow and steady.

02-12-2018 1:56pm

STB. wrote: »

Ah I see we are talking at cross purposes. You are talking about AirBnB.

Their is no such "bit". They CAN and ARE. Renting a property on a long term basis is a business venture and the tax man takes his cut.

There’s a huge difference in a property being rented out to families long term and ones used as holiday lets. There are different planning regulations for private use and business use. With AirBnB these regulations are being ignored.

STB. · 02-12-2018 1:57pm

Graham wrote: »

In the context of the last few posts discussing AirBnb and properties being used 'as a business venture', that would be my interpretation.

Well Graham I was responding to an article about Dublin's Housing crisis and a few quotes that you have since tidied up including someone who did not understand who was responsible for social housing provision, which is not at all surprising given that the government has attempted to abdicate all its social housing responsibility to private landlords.

We all know that the reason that some private landlords had to resort to AirBNB scenarios is because they are afforded no protections whilst being lumbered with social housing schemes, whether they liked it or not.

Then we see the clueless harping on about "those privately owned houses, built as family homes, are being used as a business".

beauf · 02-12-2018 1:58pm

Graham wrote: »

It's been said many times. Enforcing planning regulations to return short-term lettings back to the residential market is not a silver-bullet. It is one of many actions that needs to be taken.

It way over stated.

We seem to want to avoid all the big issues, and focus entirely about the small ones.
Which is exactly what the govt want people do to. Take the blame entirely off them.

I wonder do all the people who campaign for all these minor changes, not at some point stop and wonder why they are having no effect, and is fact getting worse.

Idbatterim · 02-12-2018 1:59pm

Developers will build what is most profitable, understandably! But what I’d not understandable, is the morons in abp and the city councils supporting low density developments. There should be an insiststance on a minimum units per hectare that effectively stops house building in the city, unless it’s on tiny sites. A prime example is here , a site with planning for 22 houses and now planning being sought for 107 apartments and that is with surface parking!!!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/cairn-homes-plans-107-high-end-apartments-in-dublin-scheme-1.3706026?mode=amp

02-12-2018 2:02pm

STB. wrote: »

Then we see the clueless harping on about "those privately owned houses, built as family homes, are being used as a business".

Imagine if those houses were returned to the housing market? The housing situation (almost) sorted in one fell swoop.

And don’t be worrying about the poor hoteliers. Once the homeless vacate their rooms, they’ll have plenty of space for the AirBnB clients.

STB. · 02-12-2018 2:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There’s a huge difference in a property being rented out to families long term and ones used as holiday lets. There are different planning regulations for private use and business use. With AirBnB these regulations are being ignored.

So you accept that

Deleted User wrote: »

"The bit that says that houses built or bought as private dwellings cannot be used as a business venture".

Does not exist. It couldn't or we wouldn't have a rental sector at all.

Just as an aside I agree with the long term restriction placed on properties for AirBNB use. I do not however agree with the inequality of protections on private landlords nor the enforced social obligations in the absence of a government social and affordable housing strategy.

Deleted User wrote: »

Imagine if those houses were returned to the housing market? The housing situation (almost) sorted in one fell swoop.

And don’t be worrying about the poor hoteliers. Once the homeless vacate their rooms, they’ll have plenty of space for the AirBnB clients.

Returned to the rental market by the owners ?

That would solve the lack of social and affordable homes ? what planet are you living on ?

beauf · 02-12-2018 2:08pm

STB. wrote: »

Well Graham I was responding to an article about Dublin's Housing crisis and a few quotes that you have since tidied up including someone who did not understand who was responsible for social housing provision, which is not at all surprising given that the government has attempted to abdicate all its social housing responsibility to private landlords.

We all know that the reason that some private landlords had to resort to AirBNB scenarios is because they are afforded no protections whilst being lumbered with social housing schemes, whether they liked it or not.

Then we see the clueless harping on about "those privately owned houses, built as family homes, are being used as a business".

You are wasting your time. Its like those time when someone does something they are advised not to. Then when it ends in disaster they claim no one warned them. Some people only learn that fire is hot by sticking their hand in the fire, repeatedly.

Graham · 02-12-2018 2:08pm

beauf wrote: »

It way over stated.

We seem to want to avoid all the big issues, and focus entirely about the small ones.

Which is exactly what the govt want people do to. Take the blame entirely off them.

I'm certainly not one of the 'we' you mention.

The 'big issues' you're talking about have generally come about as an accumulation of the affects of many more smaller issues.

There is no singular approach that's going to fix it unless you over-simplify to the point of uselessness; build more homes.

Graham · 02-12-2018 2:17pm

STB. wrote: »

and a few quotes that you have since tidied up

For clarity; the tidying up consisted of closing the quotes properly. The content remains unmoderated.

Graham · 02-12-2018 2:22pm

STB. wrote: »

Then we see the clueless harping on about "those privately owned houses, built as family homes, are being used as a business".

It's not a huge stretch to describe holiday lettings as a business, all be it that residential lettings are also a business. The implication is, those properties are not being used for the purpose they were intended; residential.

I'm sure you understood that without resorting to arguing semantics.

STB. · 02-12-2018 2:24pm

Graham wrote: »

The 'big issues' you're talking about have generally come about as an accumulation of the affects of many more smaller issues.

There is no singular approach that's going to fix it unless you over-simplify to the point of uselessness; build more homes.

Social and affordable housing are big issues at any time. This issue did not come about as a an accumulation of smaller issues. The lack of attention to housing came about as a result of this governments inaction over 10 years. There were many missed opportunities including the ring fencing of property and land by NAMA for social and affordable purposes. Instead the government sold the lot to vulture funds who now have the country to ransom.

The singular approach is to have professional advisors in government to make sure it does not happen again. The second thing that needs to be sorted is for accountability at the highest levels of government. There is too much behind closed doors political decision making that overrides public good.

Graham wrote: »

It's not a huge stretch to describe holiday lettings as a business, all be it that residential lettings are also a business. The implication is, those properties are not being used for the purpose they were intended; residential.

I'm sure you understood that without resorting to arguing semantics.

Renting properties for short or long term use is a business. The government insists it is and tax accordingly.

There are many arguments going on in this thread (and across others too by the same posters) and many of them are the same said message, that private property owners should be told what they can and cannot do with their privately owned property because there is a housing crisis.

The government have been successful in pointing the finger elsewhere as there are people who do not understand the bigger picture. It will take 10 years to solve and the short term plan is to abdicate responsibility to the privately owned sector.

beauf · 02-12-2018 2:54pm

Graham wrote: »

I'm certainly not one of the 'we' you mention.

The 'big issues' you're talking about have generally come about as an accumulation of the affects of many more smaller issues.

There is no singular approach that's going to fix it unless you over-simplify to the point of uselessness; build more homes.

This is a bit like worrying about was the paint work scratched on the titanic.

Graham · 02-12-2018 3:31pm

STB. wrote: »

There are many arguments going on in this thread (and across others too by the same posters) and many of them are the same said message, that private property owners should be told what they can and cannot do with their privately owned property because there is a housing crisis.

:rolleyes:

Prepare yourself STB because this is going to come as a shock.

Planning permission has been around for much longer than the housing crisis.

Are you suggesting there are a large cohort of property investors that are only now discovering this?

Inside Dublin’s Housing Crisis

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