Should I repeat? Or go for GEM

dublindoctor wrote: »

It was just an observation that there are 6 med schools here, and it's a small country...I wasn't making comments at reducing students, the problem of people leaving is due to poor pay and working conditions.

So back to the topic, for the LC students, you can do a science degree and grad med in 7 years, if all goes to plan, or repeat and do med in either 5 or 6 years makingi 6 or 7 in total!

PC11 you seem fairly up to speed with GAMSAT etc, what do you think will happen to the scores this year, stay the same or increase/decrease....Do you think the fact that the scores being in the same percentiles as last year will be an indication that scores may stay the same?

Or they could do another 3 year degree like Arts or Commerce. I have my own thoughts on the relative merits of the various degrees, but some people here don't like to hear that different degrees are easier or harder.

Well, predicting in general is a mug's game. Look at the posts here from a few years ago predicting GAMSAT scores would continue to go up, they were wide of the mark.

I don't really have any special understanding of the percentile curves or GAMSAT marking however, and I'm a little sceptical of those who claim such knowledge.

That said, I can't see them going up. Apart from the financial challenge, I have a theory that there was a pent-up demand for graduates to do medicine before GEM started and the first few years partly satisfied that, so the pool of candidates may have eased a little by now. Just an idea though.

pc11 wrote: »

Yup, I said undergrads can certainly be excellent doctors. No-one here said anything about 600 point students being anti-social except you. And if you're saying GEMs have too much debt, I totally agree with you! I would be all for having our debt mountain reduced, that's for sure. As we have shorter careers, it's a tough mountain to climb. But that's not a reflection on GEMs, that's a reflection on the system. It's not our fault the fees are so high, it's not our fault the funds are hard to get, it's not our fault the career opportunities are restricted. But you know what? You too will spend most of your adult life in debt, get used to it.

You know, I've been very careful not to criticise undergrads, but you're having quite a go at GEMs. Not cool. You sound a bit threatened in fact, no idea why.



That may well be, I don't know, and whether that means anything is an open question. Again, you seem to be insulting GEMs. Why, I don't know.

Again, no-one is criticising undergrads. It's not about undergrad and GEM being in opposition, I was pretty careful to say that. Why can't we all just get along?

I'm not insulting GEMs, I'm just challenging an attitude that is definitely out there about GEMs being assumed to be better students than undergrads. It may not be explicit but it's definitely there and it's disrespectful. Trust me I don't feel threatened by any GEMs, or any other student for that matter. It just irks me when people are quick to jump on the 'older students are better than younger' train.

Anyway this has gotten silly so I don't want to get into it further, I think I've made my feelings known. Please know that I wasn't insulting GEMs in any way, I have admiration for their commitment and med school is hard for everyone.

caroline1111 wrote: »

As far as I know they don't actually, what would make you think that?



In fairness its probably the same for some grads, they just didnt get in first time round..

Don't get me wrong, I think that grad med is great and there will be many people with degrees that are useful and who have a real passion for medicine and will be great doctors but I feel that the current system isn't selective enough. Now almost anyone who can afford to can do it whilst many young people may just miss out on a place o people far better suited just can't afford it...

The sarcasm obviously didn't jump off the page then? That line was ment to poke fun at the sentiment expressed toward some LC entrants on this thread. To clarify, that is not my opinion of LC entrants. My understanding is that gem people do better overall in the degree. Ill have to post a link up to where I read that later on. Almost anyone who can afford it gets in? Going by what I've read that is not the case. The gamsat requires what the institutions regard as the intelligence required. Do you know better? Could the same argument be levelled at those who attend grinds schools? If you want to go down the "privileged people are disproportionately represented in med" route, then you can wipe alot of the LC grinds school out as well and move to a system that takes your class rank into account.

If your going to kick out "the privileged", you'll be sending a hefty percentage of the LC crowd home as well.

Maybe they could introduce interviews which would weed out a few right goofs from both sides of it

caroline1111 wrote: »

I agree about there being some privilged leaving certers, but I thought one of the points of grad med was that the intelligent, non-priviliged could get in after their undergrad.
As for the gamsat requiring what the universities regard as the intelligence required, I don't really see how this is the case as there is no minimum cut off?

I agree that the fees are getting too high and it's going that way but to be honest, for most people that are considering it, it is doable. Get the loan, pay it off eventually. Thats the way it is in the UK and the states for undergrad.

I've met a few lads now that will be doing the course and I've spoken to a few more. I think that that characterises them fairly well. Intellectually capable and diverse (psychology, pharmacy, philosophy, something else begining with p, law etc) passionate about doing medicine.

Final point; 485 is the minimum points for med in ucd but I think 535 were the lowest points before hpat to get in. Does someone who gets 550ish having repeated in a private college turn out to be a better doctor than the guy who gets 500 first time out, does a degree in whatever and does gem? I doubt it and for that matter, if a guy gets 600 points in a public school, is he going to be a better doctor then the guy that scrapes by having repeated in a fee paying school? I don't think that I could say yes with any degree of certainty. I reckon that the 485 is what they think is the requirment to pass the exams during the course. The higher points that we're looking at in LC entry is more a reflection of how competitive it is for the places that are there. Both arguments are a bit redundant. Once you can pass the exams that are set during the course then you have what it takes so to speak.

Final final point; What does it matter? I honestly don't think that either route produces better doctors. This arguement gets a bit septic when you starts to point out the pros and cons of either route as grads and undergrads alike take some of these points as a personal slight against them. Regarding minimum gamsat score, I agree that there should be a minimum. UL at the moment has the lowest cut off but from what I've heard, that's no reflection on the course which in terms of workload is the toughest in Ireland. So, again, if they are not able for the profession, rest assured, they won't make it through the four years.

Ana27 wrote: »

I know this is possibly a stupid question- why didn't I try harder first time round?

But, I really want to do medicine, have just finished the leaving this week and know I am not getting the points.

Should I do a science degree (that's what's on my cao now) and go for GEM in 4 years, or repeat now and try and get in as an undergrad?

Please help! Don't know what to do right now! Thanks

beardedmaster wrote: »

Repeat. I was 19 doing the LC the first time, did very well, and still regret not repeating.
I've just finished my 3rd year in a Science degree (doing very well in it and enjoying it), but still regret not repeating.
GEM & a BSc in a biomedical-related Science is a solidly great idea, if it wasn't for the seriously exorbitant costs of the courses. Sure, a degree in Physiology is the best preparation for GEM, but don't underestimate free fees, ever. I still want to do medicine after my degree, and have a good GAMSAT score, but the fees are simply frightening.

nomoreexams wrote: »

I have to say after reading through some of the ludicrous arguments on this thread I have to say I find this childish and churlish. There are pros and cons to being either an undergrad or a GEM. As far as I'm concerned we're all in the same boat- and we all have a struggle ahead of us fighting against a government and a public who doesn't see our problems as a priority so to have us undermining each other is foolish.

To answer the question of the thread, I did a non-science degree and started a career. I'm glad I did it this way. I'm a lot more confident now than I was post LC and trust my instinct now without doubting myself. This confidence came from working- not from studying. Had I opted to do medicine from LC I would have made a terrible doctor. This was just me. An absolute subjective reason for why I'm happy with my decision to go off and work and make mistakes and live a little. I don't doubt that there are some very sociable, caring, intelligent people who will make fantastic doctors that start med as an undergrad but there's no harm is having a mix of people in med just as there is in every other career out there. So in my opinion it's no harm to have a degree in another discipline (as someone else said, you might love it) there is the major issue of the increase cost of doing it this way though, once you're aware of that.

Ana27 - there are pros and cons of doing medicine straight from school, as there are doing another degree and then studying medicine as either a GEM or a mature student. However there are massive financial implications of doing another degree before medicine. I am a mature student, and yes there are benefits to having worked, etc., but thought it might be worthwhile listing the costs of doing another degree first.

There are some valid points in this thread but then it seemed to get a bit away from your original question and kind of developed into an undergraduate vs GEM debate/argument. The US have used the GEM route for decades, the UK/Ireland the undergraduate route all produce capable/competent doctors. The US has the USMLEs, the UK/Ireland have memberships of the various colleges.

The undergraduate route you have to pay the Student contribution. Here is some info from http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third_level_education/fees_and_supports_for_third_level_education/fees.html
Most colleges charge an annual student contribution, formerly called the student services charge. It is also known as a registration fee and it covers student services and examinations. The amount of the contribution varies from one institution to another. The maximum rate of the student contribution for the academic year 2013-2014 is €2,500.

Budget 2013: It was announced that the student contribution will be €2,750 in 2014-2015 and €3,000 in 2015-2016.

You may be eligible for a grant, there are various levels, some levels pay this charge, some also provide financial support towards living expenses, etc. But SUSI this year was really late in granting some claims. Medicine as an undergraduate is either a 5/6 year course, so this charge is close to €15k/18k.

GEM - you need a minimum of a 2.1 degree and sit the GAMSAT, places are allocated in Ireland purely on that score. This is expensive, you will pay approximately €60k in fees. You will also need to live, eat, buy books, etc. It is difficult to get funding, check out some of the threads posted here. Unless you have quite a substantial credit history you will probably require a guarantor.

Mature route - realistically you need a degree, and they take this into account, along with your work experience, voluntary experience, personal statements, and you have to sit the HPAT, and then they interview you. And as you already have a degree then you have to pay fees. And ultimately mature medicine is expensive. Fees in Trinity have remained constant since 2009 at €8,456 http://www.tcd.ie/Treasurers_Office/...es_2012-13.pdf giving a 5 year total of €42,280.
RCSI - this year's rates http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?p=112&n=202&a=745#Fees are €15,890. The undergraduate (straight from school fee is €10,127 http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?p=112&n=202&a=745#Fees) and I don't think you are eligible for this rate as you need to be allocated a spot on the MEP route. That means 5 years in RCSI is currently €79,450, or 6 years is €95,340.
If you already have a degree you are not eligible for a grant or other fee funding - this applies to both the mature and GEM route.

This is a huge level of debt to graduate with. The current intern starting salary is €30,257, and the Haddington Road deal is being voted on at the moment and this will reduce overtime pay and delay pay increments. Take home pay after tax, Medical Council and IMO memberships and various medical exams is probably half that. Yes there is overtime on top of that, but you may not be paid for all of it, and may soon be capped if the HSE ever implements EWTD.

If you are sure that medicine is the course, career and lifestyle for you, then yes I would seriously consider repeating your LC. If you are not sure - then maybe a year spent repeating and looking into things may confirm that it is right for you, or you may decide on something completely different.

You have the summer to think about this - You may want to look at your finances, and possibly discuss the financial ramifications with your parents/guardians (would they be willing/in a position to act as guarantor?). Talk to your careers guidance counsellor - is it realistic that you will get probably around 540/550 points. Also over the summer when the HPAT results are released - have a look at that and see how you did. You may have a fabulous result, and be pleasantly pleased with your LC and have enough points anyway. If not - can you improve on your LC and/or your HPAT?

I hope I haven't overloaded you with info, but feel free to PM me.

And remember - what do they call the person who comes last in Med School ... Doctor - and that applied to all routes