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18-10-2019, 09:15   #31
Aegir
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You don't have to understand anything about Catholicism to be a catholic. There is no exam.
so in order to be Irish, you have to be a catholic?
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18-10-2019, 09:21   #32
 
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so in order to be Irish, you have to be a catholic?
?

Trying to find your logical process. Not finding it.
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18-10-2019, 09:35   #33
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so in order to be Irish, you have to be a catholic?
No, of course not. Don't put words in my mouth. I am atheistic myself.
There are plenty of Irish people who are not catholic.


But obviously it is a catholic country culturally and historically where we are not going to celebrate an anti catholic festival from a different country.


Its in our constitution, most of our schools are catholic, a high proportion of people in Ireland would describe themselves as catholic. its a catholic country and a complete nonsense to suggest otherwise. What are we then protestant? Islamic? Secular?


You really have to spell out every little comment you make on here or you are just over analyzed.
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18-10-2019, 10:11   #34
Aegir
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No, of course not. Don't put words in my mouth. I am atheistic myself.
There are plenty of Irish people who are not catholic.


But obviously it is a catholic country culturally and historically where we are not going to celebrate an anti catholic festival from a different country.


Its in our constitution, most of our schools are catholic, a high proportion of people in Ireland would describe themselves as catholic. its a catholic country and a complete nonsense to suggest otherwise. What are we then protestant? Islamic? Secular?


You really have to spell out every little comment you make on here or you are just over analyzed.
I was just confused by your statement that “we” are catholic.

Who is this “we” you talk of?
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18-10-2019, 11:47   #35
 
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I was just confused by your statement that “we” are catholic.

Who is this “we” you talk of?
It’s in your head because it wasn’t in his statement.
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18-10-2019, 12:23   #36
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It’s in your head because it wasn’t in his statement.
To be fair...

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We are catholic, we are not British.

Why don't we celebrate Bastille day?
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18-10-2019, 12:35   #37
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Samhain (Halloween) is a lunar festival, you celebrate it at the turn of the new moon, it's the Celtic new year festival and this year runs from around the 28th October to the 12th November, around that anyways, so everyone has a huge window to celebrate whatever they like, Guy Fawkes, horror films, pumpkins, whatever, just try to remember and celebrate your ancestors what definitely did come before you. That's what Samhain is, was, and will ever be, and our island is the home of it. It is a great thing.
I don't think the Irish of old got excited about the moon for its own sake. It was more its agri significance - the end of the harvest.

Kids of today's Ireland for the most part know nothing of sowing not to mind a harvest. The progression by housing estate doors to collect discounter German supermarket sugar bombs in a plastic bag has nothing got to do with the old Samhain thing. It think we can accept that it is dead.
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18-10-2019, 14:54   #38
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He was a religious fanatic. The Gunpowder Plot was basically a Catholic Jihad.

Dev gave us that for free.

It was a lot more complex than that.

Catholics were being violently persecuted under James I (as they had been under his predecessor Elizabeth I also)

The Catholic population had hoped James would prove more tolerant than his aunt, because both his mother and father had actually been Catholics, but he continued the policies of his aunt and grandfather.

The conspiracy to assassinate James had two aims - one was to stop the persecution of Catholics, and the other was to install his daughter as Queen and marry her off to a Catholic prince from Europe. This likely would have resulted in a similar level of persecution levied towards any non-Catholics


Fawkes was only one member of a larger conspiracy. Interesting fact - the ringleader of the plot, Robert Catesby, is a direct ancestor of Kit Harington (who portrayed Catesby in a TV mini-series a few years ago).
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18-10-2019, 15:09   #39
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It should be remembered that England was officially a Roman Catholic country until Henry VIII had his famous mickey trouble in the 1530s.
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18-10-2019, 16:15   #40
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You don't have to understand anything about Catholicism to be a catholic. There is no exam.
Here’s me thinking belief in the transubstantiation had some importance.
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18-10-2019, 18:21   #41
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Was by no means a one-man op either.

The greater part of the 1916 leadership were RC extremists. A cursory glance at letters they wrote (read them yourself in Kilmainham or Collins barracks) will tell you that.

There was another contingent of that leadership who were socialist extremists: Connolly and his Citizen's Army.

Secular Ireland is not ready to face down the extremist origins of the state. And may not be for a while yet.
There's a tendency these days to apply modern terms and ideas to historical figures and it inevitably ends up ignoring the context of the time they lived in.

The 1916 leaders were no more "extremist" in terms of their religion than the rest of the population. They were a product of the society that created them. By today's standards their religious fervour was extreme, but it was not by any means unusual back then, at all.

It's not really possible to call Connolly a socialist extremist. His socialism and the means by which he intended to implement it were of the time. Socialism was a poorly understood boogeyman in Europe in the early part of the last century and anyone who espoused it, whether moderate or hard-line, was considered dangerous.
You have to ask yourself, if Connolly was extreme in his views, then who was moderate? Jim Larkin is usually remembered as a trade unionist but people forget he was one of the founders of the Citizen Army.

That last line in your post is meaningless. What does it mean for the state to face down its extremist origins? How would it do that?

There's nothing to "face down". This has been done to death by decades of historians.

Last edited by wiggle16; 18-10-2019 at 18:24.
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