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Why The Horrible Attitude Towards Homosexuality?

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  • 29-08-2009 2:29pm
    #1
    Hardrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭


    Recently through work I met a nice girl, bright, funny and a real pleasure to be around. Her being a christian came up and I told her I was an atheist, we laughed and called ourselves the odd couple. While I am against religion and all it teaches I respected her beliefs and found her working with the elderly and sick to be very admirable and selfless.

    Which brings me to my point/question. My friend dropped in to give me my mobile back I had left in his house, said girl was very impressed and commented on how cute he was. When I told her he was gay something amazing happened. Her face turned into a look of rage and she preccded to go into a rant about how he was 'sick' 'disgusting' and wrong.

    She become almost out of control banging on about it being against god and such like.

    I found it quite disturbing that someone so bright could turn into such a bigot, why can't two people of the same sex be happy together? Do you not find it irrational to label someone who is homosexual to be happy with their choices in who they see?

    Do you really base it all on the bible? Do you honestly find it a sin for people to be happy? Is the message of Christianity not to be kind, tolerant and even be happy for someone to be happy?


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    #2
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Also, can I add this question :):

    IF homosexuality is viewed as a sin, could I not say that because we are all born sinners, we are all, by default, sort of homosexual?


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    #3
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Sorry , but what is it you are asking? Is it, 'Is God against happiness?' or is it, 'Is God against Homosexuality?' or is it, 'Can two homosexuals be happy together?'


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    #4
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Basically, I think it is this:

    Why have some Christians negative views of homosexuals, is it because of the understanding of the bible or is it from elsewhere in humanity?


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    #5
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    No, homophobia and hatred are not based on the Bible at all. Homophobia is a cultural reaction against those who are a minority or different. You find homophobes among people of all faiths and those of none. Indeed, some of the most violent homophobia can be found among atheists. Being a homosexual in China or North Korea can earn you a spot in jail or worse. (That's not a slam against atheists - just trying to point out that homophobia is not a religious invention).

    I personally find it distressing and shameful that any Christian would express hatred towards homosexuals. I have never encountered a single person who was tolerant of homosexuals and then became homophobic after their conversion to Christianity, but I wish that they would all leave that crap behind when they received Christ.

    Btw, I do believe homosexual practices are sinful and incompatible with practicing Christianity, but that is a separate issue from homophobia altogether.


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    #6
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Also, can I add this question :):

    IF homosexuality is viewed as a sin, could I not say that because we are all born sinners, we are all, by default, sort of homosexual?

    Only if you are extremely bad at logic. :)


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    #7
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    PDN wrote: »
    No, homophobia and hatred are not based on the Bible at all. Homophobia is a cultural reaction against those who are a minority or different. You find homophobes among people of all faiths and those of none. Indeed, some of the most violent homophobia can be found among atheists. Being a homosexual in China or North Korea can earn you a spot in jail or worse. (That's not a slam against atheists - just trying to point out that homophobia is not a religious invention).

    I personally find it distressing and shameful that any Christian would express hatred towards homosexuals. I have never encountered a single person who was tolerant of homosexuals and then became homophobic after their conversion to Christianity, but I wish that they would all leave that crap behind when they received Christ.

    Yeah, that's what I thought too it, *resists urge to make a dig at CC for misleading many*


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    #8
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    PDN wrote: »
    Only if you are extremely bad at logic. :)

    I'm woeful at it:o


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    #9
    Hardrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭Hardrain


    Btw, I do believe homosexual practices are sinful and incompatible with practicing Christianity, but that is a separate issue from homophobia altogether.[/quote]

    Why do you find them 'sinful'


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    #10
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Hardrain wrote: »
    Why do you find them 'sinful'

    Because the teaching of the New Testament says so. Christian standards of morality are derived from biblical teaching.


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    #11
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hardrain wrote: »
    Do you not find it irrational to label someone who is homosexual to be happy with their choices in who they see?
    I'm not christian, but your question assumes that love is more important to christians than what sociologists and anthropologists, as well as others, refer to as ritual purity, something that's a feature of many religions.

    People who aren't religious, or only mildly religious, tend not to respect or understand how important these ritual purity rules are for religious people, and I reckon that this is where the disjoint's happening with your friend.

    .


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    #12
    Hardrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭Hardrain


    I just find that strange and find it hard to get my head around. Again Il say that I'm an atheist but I respect your faith fully. I just find it odd for someone to be condemed a sinner due to passages that are so old.

    What problems would arrise is my friend wished to convert?

    Do you believe people can be 'Cured' from being homosexual?


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    #13
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Why have some Christians negative views of homosexuals, is it because of the understanding of the bible or is it from elsewhere in humanity?
    I don’t think it has anything to do with Christianity or religion. Hostile attitudes to gays prevail widely. It is based on prejudice, so those who hold this view have difficulty defending it when challenged and resort to desperate arguments that humankind might die out if we all went that way or that it is somehow unnatural. I believe some appeal to the bible and the notion of absolute morality to justify their views. This is an example of the problems that arising from the fact that absolute morality is immune from questioning, which is being discussed on another thread.


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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Also, can I add this question :):

    IF homosexuality is viewed as a sin, could I not say that because we are all born sinners, we are all, by default, sort of homosexual?

    i steal a muffin, that makes me a criminal. since i'm a criminal, i must also by default, be sort of a murderer.

    hmmm......


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    #15
    ozzirt
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭ozzirt


    It's pretty much a matter of personal perception and choices.

    I hate broccoli but am not normally tagged as a Broccoliphobe, yet I also detest homosexuals and people are more than happy to hang the Homophobe label on me. Which in fact I do not mind, as I feel that it is quite normal and not in the least bit derogatory.

    Someone once asked me, (several persons actually). Why exactly don't you like people who admit to being, or show signs of being Homosexuals? To which my answer was:

    It's a bit like my dislike of persons who pick their nose and eat it in public,... I am revolted by it. Yet if one looks at it in all honesty, mucous is a naturally occurring bodily excretion similar to saliva, we swallow pints of it daily as it flows out of the nasal cavity and down the throat, and no body thinks twice about it.

    Which brings it down to a single reason. It's a disgusting and anti social habit that goes against social expectations for people who consider themselves to be somewhat "civilised", or trying to be.


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    #16
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Hardrain wrote: »
    I just find that strange and find it hard to get my head around. Again Il say that I'm an atheist but I respect your faith fully. I just find it odd for someone to be condemed a sinner due to passages that are so old.

    What problems would arrise is my friend wished to convert?

    Do you believe people can be 'Cured' from being homosexual?

    We are all condemned as sinners until we receive Christ (and even afterwards we are still sinners, albeit foriven sinners). Christians believe that homosexual acts are sinful just as they believe gossip or praying to a Hindu God is sinful. You (and gossips and Hindus) are, of course, free to disagree since you have a different basis for determining morality.

    If your friend wished to convert then I would place no preconditions in his way whatsoever. I do believe, however, that if he experienced a genuine conversion then he would see the need to change his lifestyle.

    I don't believe anyone can be cured from homosexuality because I don't believe homosexuality is an illness or condition.

    We've had this debate before ad neauseam in this forum, and most non-Christians disagree with my view that homosexual acts are a choice & that nobody is born a homosexual. I see no scientific evidence for the position that homosexuality is a condition (particularly in light of the very narrow definition of 'science' as explained to me in the ID thread) and I see many indications in history and contemporary culture that indicate that homosexual acts are a choice that pretty well any guy can make under the 'right' conditions.


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    #17
    Hardrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭Hardrain


    PDN wrote: »
    We are all condemned as sinners until we receive Christ (and even afterwards we are still sinners, albeit foriven sinners). Christians believe that homosexual acts are sinful just as they believe gossip or praying to a Hindu God is sinful. You (and gossips and Hindus) are, of course, free to disagree since you have a different basis for determining morality.

    If your friend wished to convert then I would place no preconditions in his way whatsoever. I do believe, however, that if he experienced a genuine conversion then he would see the need to change his lifestyle.

    I don't believe anyone can be cured from homosexuality because I don't believe homosexuality is an illness or condition.

    We've had this debate before ad neauseam in this forum, and most non-Christians disagree with my view that homosexual acts are a choice & that nobody is born a homosexual. I see no scientific evidence for the position that homosexuality is a condition (particularly in light of the very narrow definition of 'science' as explained to me in the ID thread) and I see many indications in history and contemporary culture that indicate that homosexual acts are a choice that pretty well any guy can make under the 'right' conditions.

    Guess we'll just agree to disagree!


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    #18
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    PDN wrote: »
    We've had this debate before ad neauseam in this forum, and most non-Christians disagree with my view that homosexual acts are a choice & that nobody is born a homosexual. .

    As I missed that convo, I just feel I should say...

    While I agree with the notion that it's possible no one is born homosexual, I disagree with the notion that it is choice chosen by all homosexuals : for some it isn't.

    It's a natural process, that just happens.


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    #19
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Malty_T wrote: »
    As I missed that convo, I just feel I should say...

    While I agree with the notion that it's possible no one is born homosexual, I disagree with the notion that it is choice chosen by all homosexuals : for some it isn't.

    It's a natural process, that just happens.

    But it frequently 'just happens' as a response to societal norms and environment.

    For example, large numbers of men in the US live life with no homosexual activity until they are incarcerated in prison. Then they engage in homosexual activity while in jail. Then upon release they again abstain from homosexual activity.

    It was the fashion in many parts of ancient Greece for young men to take homosexual lovers for a while prior to marriage, then after marriage to refrain from homosexual activity.

    Did these individuals switch between a condition of homosexuality and heterosexuality because it 'just happened'? I think it far more likely that they choose certain actions in response to their environment, the cultural norms of that environment, and being restricted from making certain other choices. But I would be interested in seeing some real hard evidence to the contrary (I'll avoid using the word 'scientific' since it is unduly narrow).

    The idea of homosexuality as an identity, or a condition, is a fairly recent societal development as far as I can tell.


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    #20
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    PDN wrote: »
    But it frequently 'just happens' as a response to societal norms and environment.

    For example, large numbers of men in the US live life with no homosexual activity until they are incarcerated in prison. Then they engage in homosexual activity while in jail. Then upon release they again abstain from homosexual activity.

    It was the fashion in many parts of ancient Greece for young men to take homosexual lovers for a while prior to marriage, then after marriage to refrain from homosexual activity.

    Did these individuals switch between a condition of homosexuality and heterosexuality because it 'just happened'? I think it far more likely that they choose certain actions in response to their environment, the cultural norms of that environment, and being restricted from making certain other choices. But I would be interested in seeing some real hard evidence to the contrary (I'll avoid using the word 'scientific' since it is unduly narrow).

    The idea of homosexuality as an identity, or a condition, is a fairly recent societal development as far as I can tell.

    Yeah I'll admit there are traditions whereby male's improve their sexual performance by practicing with other males. These are of course, normally, done by choice. However, I'm just saying that not every instance of homosexuality is a chosen by person -they just happen to happen :)

    Well, anecdotal evidence is fiddly but many gays claim they can't help it..they're just attracted to the same sex and can't explain why - it's not a choice for them.


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    #21
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    large numbers of men [...] young men to take homosexual lovers [...] The idea of homosexuality as an identity, or a condition, is a fairly recent societal development as far as I can tell.
    This is certainly a common view amongst religious people, but the notion that homosexuality is a recently-arrived "condition" is certainly not supported by any history or evidence that I'm aware of. Quite the contrary actually.

    Men -- and how could we forget our lesbian friends too -- appear to have been messing about with members of their own sex for a very long time indeed. And in recent years, it's turned out that many animals have been doing exactly the same thing too, with homosexual activity noted in many primates, dolphins, penguins and heaven knows what else.

    There's nothing unnatural or recent about homosexual sex, male or female, though the arrival of formal, probably ritually-derived, prohibitions on (principally) male homosexual activity does appear to be a relatively recent evolutionary development, principally amongst the largest and most successful of the monotheistic religions.


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    #22
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    robindch wrote: »
    This is certainly a common view amongst religious people, but the notion that homosexuality is a recently-arrived "condition" is certainly not supported by any history or evidence that I'm aware of. Quite the contrary actually.

    Men -- and how could we forget our lesbian friends too -- appear to have been messing about with members of their own sex for a very long time indeed. And in recent years, it's turned out that many animals have been doing exactly the same thing too, with homosexual activity noted in many primates, dolphins, penguins and heaven knows what else.

    There's nothing unnatural or recent about homosexual sex, male or female, though the arrival of formal, probably ritually-derived, prohibitions on (principally) male homosexual activity does appear to be a relatively recent evolutionary development, principally amongst the largest and most successful of the monotheistic religions.

    I think you're misunderstanding me (accidentally I'm sure).

    I'm not saying that homosexual acts are in any way a recent development. Men have always cheerfully rogered other men, sometimes in much greater numbers than in our present culture. Animals, too, engage in homosexual activity.

    What appears to be a more recent development is identifying homosexuality as a condition or even as an identity, where someone defines themself as exclusively homosexual. My own opinion is that mankind (and particularly the male of the species) are pretty well omnisexual by nature. Given the right opportunity they will happily copulate with men, women, their right hand, rubber dolls, vacuum cleaners and anything else that provides a tight fit. Without the restraints of culture or religion we are like dogs that hump cushions, legs or anything else.

    Now some of us prefer one variety of sex over another (whether such preferences are nature or nurture is debatable) but everyone of us has the capacity, IMHO, to do all kinds of stuff and to live all kinds of lifestyles.

    Our various cultures allow and facilitate different expressions of sexual behaviour, and the Christian church has a particular set of sexual activities which are deemed permissable, and a whole lot more that are not. If you are not a Christian then it is unlikely that you will agree completely with Christian standards of sexual morality, but I think it's lazy and inaccurate to try to label Christian views on sexuality as homophobia.


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    #23
    Hardrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭Hardrain


    How would you feel about gay adoption?


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    #24
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Hardrain wrote: »
    How would you feel about gay adoption?

    I'd have no objection to adopting a gay child. :)


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    #25
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Sorry, my sense of humour can be an acquired taste. My wife has been married to me for for 23 years and she still hasn't acquired it.

    My feelings about adoption are that it should always be in the best interests of the child, not the adoptive parents.

    I would be OK with a same-sex couple adopting a child in Scandanavia, but not so much in Ireland. That may sound confusing or contradictory - so let me explain.

    Adopted kids often have to overcome problems of identity and feeling unwanted or rejected. Therefore it can be even more damaging than for birth children when a couple splits up. Couples that are not married are, statistically speaking, more likely to split up than married couples. I would oppose adoption by any couple that are not married or in some form of pretty binding civil partnership. Since Ireland is lagging behind with such legislation for same-sex couples, that places the adopted child in a less secure environment than in a Scandanavian country where same sex marriages or civil partnerships are recognised. (I am not stereotyping here, and I know there are plenty of exceptions, but when setting policy you have to examine what criteria are statistically significant).

    Also, in societies with a higher acceptance of same-sex couples, kids in such homes are much less likely to be bullied. I dread to think what it would be like trying to grow up and go to school in many parts of Ireland while having a home with same-sex parents. I would also be opposed to Christian couples adopting children in Afghanistan or China!

    I know this may seem heartless or rough on same sex couples - but the child's interests must be paramount (for similar reasons I would be opposed to single people adopting children). I don't think anyone has an inalienable right to adopt.


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    #26
    MooseJam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭MooseJam


    PDN wrote: »

    Did these individuals switch between a condition of homosexuality and heterosexuality because it 'just happened'?

    Having sex with men doesn't make you a homosexual, if thats all thats available go for it, you can still be perfectly straight as in sexually attracted to women while engaging in whatever acts you have the opportunity to engage in.

    As you said yourself people will get giggy with anything but I've yet to hear anyone being labelled a hooversexual.


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    #27
    chozometroid
    Registered Users Posts: 626 ✭✭✭chozometroid


    MooseJam wrote: »
    As you said yourself people will get giggy with anything but I've yet to hear anyone being labelled a hooversexual.

    There aren't enough of them, that's all, because they all end up going to the E.R. and leaving with a lump of dead tissue.


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    #28
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I think it depends on your definition of homosexual as well. If it means someone engaging in sexual activity with a member of the same sex then it can - and often is - labelled as some kind of lascivious lifestyle choice.

    If you recognise some people grow up and only fancy/are turned on by members of the same sex then it becomes a more interesting debate.


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    #29
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    Hardrain wrote: »
    Recently through work I met a nice girl, bright, funny and a real pleasure to be around. Her being a christian came up and I told her I was an atheist, we laughed and called ourselves the odd couple. While I am against religion and all it teaches I respected her beliefs and found her working with the elderly and sick to be very admirable and selfless.

    Which brings me to my point/question. My friend dropped in to give me my mobile back I had left in his house, said girl was very impressed and commented on how cute he was. When I told her he was gay something amazing happened. Her face turned into a look of rage and she preccded to go into a rant about how he was 'sick' 'disgusting' and wrong.

    She become almost out of control banging on about it being against god and such like.

    I found it quite disturbing that someone so bright could turn into such a bigot, why can't two people of the same sex be happy together? Do you not find it irrational to label someone who is homosexual to be happy with their choices in who they see?

    Do you really base it all on the bible? Do you honestly find it a sin for people to be happy? Is the message of Christianity not to be kind, tolerant and even be happy for someone to be happy?

    I find it strange that some Christians have this attitude toward homosexuality but tbh, I think this is something inherent within themselves regardless of beliefs as there are many athiests who would also have this attitude.

    If you'd said to your lady friend that this guy was living with his girlfriend I wonder would there have been such an adverse reaction?


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    #30
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    Malty_T wrote: »
    While I agree with the notion that it's possible no one is born homosexual,


    I believe that some are take the homosexual road due to lifestyle and conditioning, but I also believe that some people are born homosexual. I grew up with a guy who, from a very early age, had homosexual tendencies. As children this was quite obvious to us and the poor guy was given an awful time by local bullies. Why would anyone choose this lifestyle?

    If the whole world fell with Adam, then homosexuality is not a great surprise really is it?


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    #31
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    PDN wrote: »
    Couples that are not married are, statistically speaking, more likely to split up than married couples.
    Slightly spurious use of statistics there. Gay couples cannot marry so you need to find another way to assess how enduring their relationships are.
    PDN wrote: »
    Also, in societies with a higher acceptance of same-sex couples, kids in such homes are much less likely to be bullied. I dread to think what it would be like trying to grow up and go to school in many parts of Ireland while having a home with same-sex parents.
    Undoubtedly true, but you would have to question the ethics of denying a gay couple the right to adopt for this reason. You could make a similar argument for people in some societies who are mixed race or mixed religion or who in some way are “unacceptably” different. Indulging the prejudices of such societies is hardly commendable. But of course on the other hand you have another ethical problem if you contemplate compromising the well being of a child in seeking to face down such prejudices.


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