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CC3 -- Why I believe that a third option is needed for climate change

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    With the research, I have worked up some data sets that seem to show significance of the theoretical energy peaks, have pretty much blended the model into my overall forecasting operation so hard to say how much of my forecasting is research-based, probably just some of the choices I make in mid-range to longer term.

    Would not expect a fair hearing based on past (bad) experiences, there's a very strong bias against external energy sources in the science these days, I don't think 99% can make the move beyond thinking anything astronomical is actually astrological. I don't find that meteorologists know much about astronomy so it's hard for them to distinguish the two. And I've beat this subject to death, but I find the profession somewhat closed-minded and over-confident perhaps as a reaction to constant public criticism.

    I'll wait for the tide to change, probably after I'm long gone, and perhaps somebody will re-discover what I discovered. It's happened before. I would put money on it being the only way this work would ever be accepted. Frustrating but things happen for a reason, perhaps this knowledge would become dangerous in the wrong hands. It's safe with me and my general lack of resources.

    Is that supposed to be an answer to my question on whether you have ever done any analysis on how your own long term forecasts matched the actual weather in hindsight?

    Shouldn’t that be the very first thing you do if you want people to take your methods seriously?

    And if your analysis shows that your long wangle forecasts are either too vague to be tested, or wrong most of the time, then shouldn’t that be an indicator that you have been fooling yourself all these years and that is actually the real reason proper scientists don’t want anything to do with your ‘research’


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Akrasia wrote: »
    IPCC define it as CO2 equivalent. So it’s a combination of the changes in GHG concentrations but it excludes other forcings like solar insolation

    There are lies, damn lies and Akrasia. The IPCC use CO2 and only CO2.

    AR5
    The equilibrium climate sensitivity quantifies the response of the climate system to constant radiative forcing on multi-century time scales. It is defined as the change in global mean surface temperature at equilibrium that is caused by a doubling of the atmospheric CO2 concentration. Equilibrium climate sensitivity is [FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It][FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It]likely [/FONT][/FONT]in the range 1.5°C to 4.5°C ([FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It][FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It]high confidence[/FONT][/FONT]), [FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It][FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It]extremely unlikely [/FONT][/FONT]less than 1°C ([FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It][FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It]high confidence[/FONT][/FONT]), and [FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It][FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It]very unlikely [/FONT][/FONT]greater than 6°C ([FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It][FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It]medium confidence[/FONT][/FONT])16. The lower temperature limit of the assessed [FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It][FONT=Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It,Frutiger LT Pro 58 Condensed It]likely [/FONT][/FONT]range is thus less than the 2°C in the AR4, but the upper limit is the same. This assessment reflects improved understanding, the extended temperature record in the atmosphere and ocean, and new estimates of radiative forcing.

    The transient climate response quantifies the response of the climate system to an increasing radiative forcing on a decadal to century timescale. It is defined as the change in global mean surface temperature at the time when the atmospheric CO2 concentration has doubled in a scenario of concentration increasing at 1% per year. The transient climate response is likely in the range of 1.0°C to 2.5°C (high confidence) and extremely unlikely greater than 3°C.



    16
    No best estimate for equilibrium climate sensitivity can now be given because of a lack of agreement on values across assessed lines of evidence and studies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    There are lies, damn lies and Akrasia. The IPCC use CO2 and only CO2.

    AR5
    Erm, well, tbh, I also thought those figures (ECS and the rest) included all anthro ghgs.



    Now, I'm not liar, and as such was wrong and I've learnt something.



    So, it must also mean that warming due to other anthro ghgs (CH4, CFCs, N2O) must be additional to that of CO2 alone. Right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭MiNdGaM3


    Yep, but it casts yet more doubt on the claim that all the warming and melting is 100% ghg-related.
    I meant CO2.
    But climate sensitivity is based on a doubling of CO2.
    There's now a hit of goalpost-shifting going on here The IPCC define it based on CO2. It is different to the total radiative forcing. Different gases have very different "greenhouse" efficacies, so what you say is not true at all.

    This paper casts further doubt on the higher end of the climate sensitivity range, closer to the 1.0 °C end. Then again, another 2020 paper has it up closer to the 5.5 - 6.5 degree end. Settled science indeed...

    Goalpost shifting indeed. Well done!

    There are other definitions of climate sensitivity, but as I said, doubling of CO2 is the most common one. For example from here

    Many palaeoclimate studies have quantified pre-anthropogenic climate change to calculate climate sensitivity (equilibrium temperature change in response to radiative forcing change)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    MiNdGaM3 wrote: »
    Goalpost shifting indeed. Well done!

    There are other definitions of climate sensitivity, but as I said, doubling of CO2 is the most common one. For example from here

    Many palaeoclimate studies have quantified pre-anthropogenic climate change to calculate climate sensitivity (equilibrium temperature change in response to radiative forcing change)

    What's your point? I made a mistake when I wrote GHG instead of CO2 and owned up to it. I've always spoken of climate sensitivity in terms of CO2 and so has the IPCC. Other GHGs are not included in their definition of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    Seems like they are hedging their bets.

    More summer rain = AGW
    Less summer rain = AGW
    Colder winter = AGW
    Warmer winter = AGW

    There are so many conflicting predictions that it’s near impossible for AGW to not hit at least once or twice a year.
    When the warming trend ends it’s because there is a lag that “we don’t understand”. Yet confidence in knowing enough to claim human GHG are the sole forcing factor never wanes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Nabber wrote: »
    Seems like they are hedging their bets.

    More summer rain = AGW
    Less summer rain = AGW
    Colder winter = AGW
    Warmer winter = AGW

    There are so many conflicting predictions that it’s near impossible for AGW to not hit at least once or twice a year.
    When the warming trend ends it’s because there is a lag that “we don’t understand”. Yet confidence in knowing enough to claim human GHG are the sole forcing factor never wanes.


    If you double the atmospheric concentration of a greenhouse gas like CO2 from 280mm 560 ppm you will (that's will) see ~1C warming of the lowest atmosphere as a direct consequence of that change alone. That warming will melt some ice, where it does that absorption of radiation by the surface (rather than it be reflected by the ice) will occur and there will be additional feedback warming.


    Ergo, yes, all weather and climate is being changed - though we've only got to 410ppm or so atm so the effects are not as great as with 560ppm. Additionally there is no reasonable doubt the extra CO2 is coming from human activities (mostly the burning of fossil fuels).



    But, we would expect (and we see) more instances of warmer weather than colder and we see almost no areas of the planet that, over multi decades, are cooling.



    Its as simple as that and, whether you like it or not, it's what is happening and will become more and more obvious over coming years and decades*.


    For those of us who love this planet, and its animals and people, it's a sombre outlook.





    * A very large volcanic eruption might pause the process for a while (the bigger, the longer the pause) and a huge meteoroid or marked change to solar output likewise.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    posidonia wrote: »
    If you double the atmospheric concentration of a greenhouse gas like CO2 from 280mm 560 ppm you will (that's will) see ~1C warming of the lowest atmosphere as a direct consequence of that change alone. That warming will melt some ice, where it does that absorption of radiation by the surface (rather than it be reflected by the ice) will occur and there will be additional feedback warming.

    Nonsense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    If they stopped emitting high frequency radio beams into the stratosphere, thus pushing out the ionosphere, then they wouldn't be able to manipulate the jet stream and have all these weather extremes around the world.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Go Jane!

    EQNInLP.png


    She puts the rest of us to shame.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Climate change adds energy to the oceans and atmosphere at a rate equivalent to exploding 5 hiroshema bombs every second Night and day.

    This is warming the oceans and fueling intense weather.

    Storm Dennis is potentially one of the most powerful weather events ever recorded in the North Atlantic,
    A once in a century storm becomes a once in a decade event, This comes in the years after very unusual hurricane formation, increases in the rate of explosive cyclogenesis such that it’s almost expected now with every storm....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Climate change adds energy to the oceans and atmosphere at a rate equivalent to exploding 5 hiroshema bombs every second Night and day.

    This is warming the oceans and fueling intense weather.

    Storm Dennis is potentially one of the most powerful weather events ever recorded in the North Atlantic,
    A once in a century storm becomes a once in a decade event, This comes in the years after very unusual hurricane formation, increases in the rate of explosive cyclogenesis such that it’s almost expected now with every storm....

    These current storms are forming on the boundary of an area of anomalously cold water around New Foundland, in the much larger anomalously cold area of NE Canada around Baffin Bay.

    You're getting carried away with the tabloid headlines again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭posidonia


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Climate change adds energy to the oceans and atmosphere at a rate equivalent to exploding 5 hiroshema bombs every second Night and day.

    This is warming the oceans and fueling intense weather.

    Storm Dennis is potentially one of the most powerful weather events ever recorded in the North Atlantic,
    A once in a century storm becomes a once in a decade event, This comes in the years after very unusual hurricane formation, increases in the rate of explosive cyclogenesis such that it’s almost expected now with every storm....


    Indeed.


    But lets instead just rubbish some women (they must be young or old though) or promote various weird conspiracy theories - all that is much easier to do than facing reality is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    These current storms are forming on the boundary of an area of anomalously cold water around New Foundland, in the much larger anomalously cold area of NE Canada around Baffin Bay.

    You're getting carried away with the tabloid headlines again.
    I haven’t read a tabloid newspaper in 30 years.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I haven’t read a tabloid newspaper in 30 years.

    Really?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/10742347/ocean-warming-rate-hiroshima-bomb-climate-change/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia



    I'm pretty sure I used the Hiroshema bomb comparison multiple times in the past. Are you saying the Sun is quoting me?
    (it used to be referred to as 4 Hiroshema bombs a second, it's increased to 5 due to the continuing increase in GHG emissions)
    Or is it possible that this information is available elsewhere other than the tabloid press?

    https://skepticalscience.com/earth-warming-5-atomic-bombs-per-sec.html
    https://thebulletin.org/2020/02/earth-is-heating-at-a-rate-equivalent-to-five-atomic-bombs-per-second-or-two-hurricane-sandys/

    Do you dispute this statistic by the way?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure I used the Hiroshema bomb comparison multiple times in the past. Are you saying the Sun is quoting me?
    (it used to be referred to as 4 Hiroshema bombs a second, it's increased to 5 due to the continuing increase in GHG emissions)
    Or is it possible that this information is available elsewhere other than the tabloid press?

    https://skepticalscience.com/earth-warming-5-atomic-bombs-per-sec.html
    https://thebulletin.org/2020/02/earth-is-heating-at-a-rate-equivalent-to-five-atomic-bombs-per-second-or-two-hurricane-sandys/

    Do you dispute this statistic by the way?

    I'm sure the amount of energy is around this level alright. However, I note that the study conveniently starts in the late 1950s, hence not including the similar increases in the first part of the 20th century. See, therein lies the problem. Whatever the source (though the general public get their news from the tabloids or The Guardian (is there any difference?!)), the general public are oblivious to the fact that an almost similar increase was taking place 100 years ago. But that wouldn't be quite so dramatic a story, would it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    By the way, I think you're mixing up barotropicity (hurricanes) and baroclinicity (these storms). The two are not connected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Hooter23


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    Go Jane!

    EQNInLP.png


    She puts the rest of us to shame.

    Yes because its really ethical to spend all your money on gold and diamonds for yourself instead of donating that money to people that are literally dying because they are so poor...How generous of her:rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Lowest winter storm pressure recorded in the N Atlantic was on January 11th, 1993, when the barometer fell down as low as 913 hPa off the north coast of Scotland.

    Reanalysis chart for that day:

    ERA_1_1993011100_1.png


    North Atlantic SST anomaly for that month: Nuclear strength heat fuelling storm:

    dbORat6.png

    And isn't it odd that for such a positively cyclonic winter so far across the N. Atlantic, that we here in Ireland, on the forefront of it all, have yet to experience what one might call a proper winter storm so far?

    Edit, looking more into that January 1993 low, it was actually on the 10th, and not the 11th as I earlier stated. UK Met hand drawn analysis chart for 18z that evening:

    dc88Vbo.png

    the 913 hPa seems to be more of a claim, but 916 hPa was official confirmed.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭MiNdGaM3


    I'm sure the amount of energy is around this level alright. However, I note that the study conveniently starts in the late 1950s, hence not including the similar increases in the first part of the 20th century. See, therein lies the problem. Whatever the source (though the general public get their news from the tabloids or The Guardian (is there any difference?!)), the general public are oblivious to the fact that an almost similar increase was taking place 100 years ago. But that wouldn't be quite so dramatic a story, would it?

    A similar increase happening 100 years ago is a fact? Where did you pull that fact from?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    MiNdGaM3 wrote: »
    A similar increase happening 100 years ago is a fact? Where did you pull that fact from?

    The uptake started around 100 years ago and continues to this day.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/4/1126


    F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,584 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    With regard to the very low central pressures of some modern-era North Atlantic storms ...

    I think these may have existed before the modern era too, but when we see reconstructed maps going back into the 19th century, they are not shown because the analysts had no reliable indications that such pressures existed. Today's modern technology gives us that indication, but as you know these pressures are inferred from satellite imagery and are (in most cases) not actually measured by ships or ocean buoys.

    The fact that very low pressures sometimes reached land based barometers (as in Dec 1886 when Armagh recorded 926 mbs) is probably an indirect proof that such pressures were "out there" in some North Atlantic storms that we see on charts reconstructed after the fact as 950 type centres.

    I don't think the human race is even responsible for one millibar of the deepening of Dennis or that 1993 storm or any other cyclonic storm or tropical storm. Half a millibar, maybe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure I used the Hiroshema bomb comparison multiple times in the past. Are you saying the Sun is quoting me?
    (it used to be referred to as 4 Hiroshema bombs a second, it's increased to 5 due to the continuing increase in GHG emissions)
    Or is it possible that this information is available elsewhere other than the tabloid press?

    https://skepticalscience.com/earth-warming-5-atomic-bombs-per-sec.html
    https://thebulletin.org/2020/02/earth-is-heating-at-a-rate-equivalent-to-five-atomic-bombs-per-second-or-two-hurricane-sandys/

    Do you dispute this statistic by the way?

    It's a comparison used to bring nuclear power into the fray, associating it with something bad.
    It's the usual alarmist rhetoric. Could you also inform us of Greenland ice melts in Olympic sized swimming pools?



    On a side note, it's good to see Mother Nature respecting our borders, people in Utah must be freezing!

    temp-jan-ht-rc-200211_hpEmbed_11x8_992.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Hooter23


    If climate change is so bad why have we not had another "Night of the big wind" which was 180 years years ago... surely if the weather is much worse now we should have had many of these type storms by now...yet none of the storms we get nowadays even come close to that storm...strange


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Hooter23 wrote: »
    If climate change is so bad why have we not had another "Night of the big wind" which was 180 years years ago... surely if the weather is much worse now we should have had many of these type storms by now...yet none of the storms we get nowadays even come close to that storm...strange

    I’m skeptical of your memory of that storm that happened more than a century before you were born


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Nabber wrote: »
    It's a comparison used to bring nuclear power into the fray, associating it with something bad.
    It's the usual alarmist rhetoric. Could you also inform us of Greenland ice melts in Olympic sized swimming pools?
    Nuclear weapons are not the same as nuclear power. It is an analogy that shows how much energy is being added to the system in a way that makes sense on a human scale[/quote]


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Nuclear weapons are not the same as nuclear power. It is an analogy that shows how much energy is being added to the system in a way that makes sense on a human scale

    Rubbish. Most lay people will have no idea how much energy is in a Hiroshima bomb. What would be much more easily understood would be "how many times the annual global domestic electricity usage" it equates to. The nuclear term is put in there purely as an association tool.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Nuclear weapons are not the same as nuclear power. It is an analogy that shows how much energy is being added to the system in a way that makes sense on a human scale

    It’s a fantastically poor analogy. It’s also one that hasn’t changed in 10 years. 2010 was 4 a second, 2020 still 4 a second.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,964 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Hooter23 wrote: »
    If climate change is so bad why have we not had another "Night of the big wind" which was 180 years years ago... surely if the weather is much worse now we should have had many of these type storms by now...yet none of the storms we get nowadays even come close to that storm...strange
    Likewise if its all just a liberal conspiracy by the worlds scientific community for whatever reasons then why have the 10 hottest years ever recorded all occurred in the last 15 years with last year being the second hottest ever seen? Its generally global heat thats considered a problem not storms hitting our minuscule little patch of the Earths surface.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Thargor wrote: »
    Likewise if its all just a liberal conspiracy by the worlds scientific community for whatever reasons then why have the 10 hottest years ever recorded all occurred in the last 15 years with last year being the second hottest ever seen? Its generally global heat thats considered a problem not storms hitting our minuscule little patch of the Earths surface.

    An apples and oranges argument. Nobody's denying that the earth is warmer now than it was 100 years ago. That's something that is "easily" measurable (though we've been through the problems with the methods), but attribution of winter storm properties to increased ocean heat content, as blindly stated by Akrasia above, is an althogether different story.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Hooter23


    Thargor wrote: »
    Likewise if its all just a liberal conspiracy by the worlds scientific community for whatever reasons then why have the 10 hottest years ever recorded all occurred in the last 15 years with last year being the second hottest ever seen? Its generally global heat thats considered a problem not storms hitting our minuscule little patch of the Earths surface.

    The 1930s was the hottest decade on record in the US...and as for 10 hottest years on record recorded in the last 15 years...well they "estimate" sea temperatures by satellite which is two thirds of the planet...estimating something is not great science is it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,964 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Hooter23 wrote: »
    The 1930s was the hottest decade on record in the US...and as for 10 hottest years on record recorded in the last 15 years...well they "estimate" sea temperatures by satellite which is two thirds of the planet...estimating something is not great science is it
    Every measurement is an estimate really, have you identified a specific problem with the methodology that the NOAA and NASA and all the rest might have missed? Anyway the US makes up ~6% of the worlds surface, cherrypicking such a small area is pointless (although would you happen to have a source for that out of curiosity?).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Thargor wrote: »
    Every measurement is an estimate really, have you identified a specific problem with the methodology that the NOAA and NASA and all the rest might have missed? Anyway the US makes up ~6% of the worlds surface, cherrypicking such a small area is pointless (although would you happen to have a source for that out of curiosity?).

    You seem to have a habit of reducing every region on earth to just irrelevant 'minuscule' patches. Yet, as in the case of the small 6% coverage of the US, the next time there is a heatwave, or a Cat 5 hurricane affecting the region we will be told that it will be down to global climate change and not very insignificant at all.

    As far as I am aware, the US has some of the longest temperature records on earth, this matters more than its 6% global surface.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,584 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    As you may know, that US map with the state borders seemingly in control of temperature anomalies is generated from county by county statistics, if a weather station happens to be located in a county (and most will have at least one) then that county gets the colour for that anomaly. As the counties are all within states, the map appears to show some arbitrary divisions but a human analyst would probably draw in more even divisions (isotherms) that did not conform to the state borders as much.

    This has been a rather nondescript winter for most of North America. A few places are running above normal for snowfall, notably northern Vermont and southern Quebec, but generally speaking the winter has been rather mild and inactive with few low pressure systems of any strength. Weather forum members are turning to stamp collecting and kite flying as new hobbies.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,584 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    I've used the term before, but if Greta is going to become famous for "how dare you" then I want to be remembered for "global blanding," that's my answer to the concept that we are seeing more frequent intense storms.

    We wish. The anecdotal nature of this claim does not stand up to rigorous analysis. The opposite is true, people have been fooled by the media spin following every significant weather event. For every one of those, there was probably a bigger one in the past before the warming began. And it makes sense. Storm development relies on a clash of air masses, so if the air masses are all getting a bit warmer, the clash is not as intense. Sure there will be exceptions but whenever one is challenged to name the worst storm of any type, almost invariably, the example that comes to mind is before 1980.

    Want to play?

    Worst storm to hit Ireland -- obviously 1839.

    Worst storm to hit the Irish Sea -- 1886

    Worst storm to hit southern England -- 1703

    Worst storm to hit the west coast of North America -- 1962

    Worst storm to hit the Great Lakes region -- perhaps a three-way tie here, 1843, 1913 and 1978 have good claims

    Worst typhoon of all time -- this is a subject of debate on weather forums, but from what I've read, the experts seem to think that several storms spread out over two centuries are about equal in their intensity.

    Worst hurricane landfall in continental US -- 1900

    Worst tornado outbreak in central US -- 1925 (second place 1974)

    Worst tropical cyclone in the Bay of Bengal -- 1970

    Worst tropical cyclone to hit Australia -- some say Tracy in 1974

    I'll ask this open question -- what category of extreme weather has seen its worst event since 1980?

    (not worst North American heat waves, those were in 1936, 1911, 1934)

    So getting back to my bid for famous words, global blanding ... we're stuck with it, and it's not all that exciting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Had a quick look at the N. Hem temp anomaly for the year so far, and up to yesterday, they are running the 3rd highest in the CSFV2 series. Yet, with all this dangerous heat around in the top half of the globe (not that there is a 'top half') there does not seem to be much in the way of negative effects going on.

    214OlDy.png

    As M.T says above, 'global blanding' should become the new buzz word in climate alarmist circles.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Hooter23


    Thargor wrote: »
    Every measurement is an estimate really, have you identified a specific problem with the methodology that the NOAA and NASA and all the rest might have missed? Anyway the US makes up ~6% of the worlds surface, cherrypicking such a small area is pointless (although would you happen to have a source for that out of curiosity?).


    More errors identified in contrarian climate scientists' temperature estimates
    What kinds of errors have been made? Well first, let’s understand how these two researchers measure atmospheric temperatures. They are not using thermometers, rather they are using microwave signals from the atmosphere to deduce temperatures. The microwave sensors are on satellites which rapidly circle the planet. 

    Some of the problems they have struggled with relate to satellite altitudes (they slowly fall over their lifetimes, and this orbital decay biases the readings); satellite drift (their orbits shift east-west a small amount causing an error); they errantly include stratosphere temperatures in their lower atmosphere readings; and they have incorrect temperature calibration on the satellites. It’s pretty deep stuff, but I have written about the errors multiple times here, and here for people who want a deeper dive into the details.

    It’s important to recognize that there are four other groups that make similar measurement estimates, so it’s possible to compare the temperatures of one group against another. The new paper, completed by Eric Swanson and published by the American Meteorological Society compares the results from three different groups. He focused on measurements made over the Arctic region. His comparison found two main differences amongst the three groups that suggests the errors.

    To better appreciate the issues, the satellites have instruments called Microwave Sounding Units (MSUs) or more recently, Advanced Microwave Soundings Units (AMSUs). These instruments allow reconstruction of the lower troposphere (TLT), the mid-troposphere temperature (TMT), and the lower stratosphere temperature (TLS). But the measurements are not at a specific location (like a thermometer) - they are smeared out over large spaces. As a consequence, it’s possible to have one layer of the atmosphere contaminate the results of another layer. You wouldn’t for instance, want your measurement of the troposphere (lower atmosphere) to include part of the stratosphere (above the troposphere).

    Among the key differences among the research teams are their methods to ensure this contamination is minimized. According to the recent paper, which was published in January 2017:

    At present, the UAH v6 (most recent Christy/Spencer data) results are preliminary and a fifth revision has now been released as v6beta5 (Spencer 2016). The release of the UAH version 6 products before publication is unusual, and Spencer recently stated that a manuscript has been submitted for a peer-reviewed publication. While some may find it scientifically inappropriate to utilize UAH v6b6 data before publication, these data have already been presented in testimony during congressional hearings before both the U.S. House and Senate and have also appeared on websites and in public print articles. 

    The author compared the Christy/Spencer data (UAH data) with another group (the RSS group) and found that the results diverged during the 1986-1988 time period. This shift “could arise from a step change or bias in either series.” When the author compared UAH with the third group (NOAA), the difference was still evident. However, when he compared RSS to NOAA, there was hardly a difference. 

    The author also noted that the timing of this divergence coincided with the merging of a new satellite NOAA-9, and this satellite has previously been identified as a source of error in the UAH results. But the author continued the analysis to more recent times and found another anomaly in 2005 which has since been corrected in NOAA.

    Look, measuring temperatures from satellites flying high above Earth is hard. No one doubts that. But let’s not be deluded into thinking these satellites are more accurate than thermometers (as some people suggest). Let’s also not blindly accept low-ball warming information from research teams that have long histories of revising their data. I created the image below a few years ago to show the upward revisions made by the Christy/Spencer team over time in their global troposphere temperatures.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/may/11/more-errors-identified-in-contrarian-climate-scientists-temperature-estimates


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    Wait till the ice melt season begins. Alarmist will be out in force. No mention of the ice growth this season it doesn’t fit the agenda.

    Come summer time we should see tabloid headlines and the ice experts calling out the ‘significant’ melt, some nonsense along the lines of 5th worst melt in record. Alway equating the gravity of the situation by placement on a leaderboard.

    Where the ranking lacks punch its altered to ‘worst in 50years’ rather than reporting ‘still not the worst on record’

    The public are fatigued with 30year constant doom, none of which has materialised.
    Maybe the planet is warming, maybe we don’t know why and maybe we have no idea of its impact. Currently that’s how it looks, with a best guess theory, as we as a species are reluctant to admit we “don’t know”... AGW is a new age religion born out of ignorance wrapped up in scientific postulations.


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nabber wrote: »
    Wait till the ice melt season begins. Alarmist will be out in force. No mention of the ice growth this season it doesn’t fit the agenda.

    Come summer time we should see tabloid headlines and the ice experts calling out the ‘significant’ melt, some nonsense along the lines of 5th worst melt in record. Alway equating the gravity of the situation by placement on a leaderboard.

    Where the ranking lacks punch its altered to ‘worst in 50years’ rather than reporting ‘still not the worst on record’

    The public are fatigued with 30year constant doom, none of which has materialised.
    Maybe the planet is warming, maybe we don’t know why and maybe we have no idea of its impact. Currently that’s how it looks, with a best guess theory, as we as a species are reluctant to admit we “don’t know”... AGW is a new age religion born out of ignorance wrapped up in scientific postulations.
    Well, we do know for a fact that human activity is adding a considerable amount of thermal energy into the biosphere, we also know that humans are terraforming large areas of the planet and this affects to local climate, replacing trees with grass or concrete changes the behaviour of rainfall. We also know that numerous pollutants are being spewed into the atmosphere.

    On the other hand, globally climate is constantly changing due to many natural variations in ocean currents, solar activity and to a lesser extent human activity.


    The AGW climate change argument is a diversionary tactic employed by business leaders and others to maintain BAU while avoiding the real issues.

    Real issues like excessive population growth and an economic model that is hard coded for infinite growth, which has resulted in the throw-away society wh currently live in.
    Good for the elite as as money is flowing to the top at a rapid rate, bat for the rest of us as we are forced into buying short lived stuff (multiple times) that they are also preventing us from even being able to repair.

    The sheer amount of wasted resources that result from planned & perceived obsolescence is really criminal, all the talk about climate change is diverting people's attention away from this fact.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Very few disagree that the planet is warming. What more dispute is that humans are the cause of it and secondly the impact is being overestimated.
    These to me, are the three strands of those having a contrarian view to the majority in the scientific community.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,964 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    You seem to have a habit of reducing every region on earth to just irrelevant 'minuscule' patches.
    Sorry for my terrible habit of not accepting reports from cherry-picked individual areas as a rebuttal to the statement that the last 15 years have contained the 10 hottest years ever recorded globally, or that the last 10 years was the hottest decade ever recorded. Im sure there were cold records broken in several countries in the 1930s aswell but it would be wrong of me to pick them as proof if I wished to claim. that the 1930s was the coldest decade ever recorded.

    I would like to see a source on that 1930s claim to be the hottest decade on record in the US even with it being irrelevant to my statement though, I dont remember ever coming across that statistic before, it would be interesting to know the causes, assuming its a true statement.
    As far as I am aware, the US has some of the longest temperature records on earth, this matters more than its 6% global surface
    I dont think the NOAA/Met Office/NASA etc use that as a metric when measuring the Earths temperature, not sure how that would work, happy to be proved wrong though.
    the next time there is a heatwave, or a Cat 5 hurricane affecting the region we will be told that it will be down to global climate change and not very insignificant at all.
    You'll be told that by the media and various other personalities, however most expert I see being interviewed whether on the subject of bushfires or hurricaines thankfully always rubbishes the idea of attributing individual events to climate change.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Thargor wrote: »
    You'll be told that by the media and various other personalities, however most expert I see being interviewed whether on the subject of bushfires or hurricaines thankfully always rubbishes the idea of attributing individual events to climate change.

    Could you please explain where you've seen a qualified climate expert being interviewed on mainstream media rubbishing the idea of single attribution? I haven't seen any such interviews recently myself. As far as the general public are concerned the Australian bushfires were made worse by agw.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    The sheer amount of wasted resources that result from planned & perceived obsolescence is really criminal, all the talk about climate change is diverting people's attention away from this fact.

    AGW is attributed to CO2 emissions, and not 90% of what you have described, which falls in more with habitat destruction, which is the force behind the majority of endangered species which are not part of human food chain.

    Yet these animals are lumped in with carbon forced AGW, which misdirects people away from mining, drilling, farming and developments and points blame solely on Fossil fuels.


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  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nabber wrote: »
    AGW is attributed to CO2 emissions, and not 90% of what you have described, which falls in more with habitat destruction, which is the force behind the majority of endangered species which are not part of human food chain.

    Yet these animals are lumped in with carbon forced AGW, which misdirects people away from mining, drilling, farming and developments and points blame solely on Fossil fuels.
    The point is, BAU is the main driver for all the mining & drilling etc, but some environmentalists are blaming farmers for having belching cows that contribute to CO2.


    By concentrating on CO2 a a culprit and blaming people for driving ICE vehicles & eating meat, it allows for the waste generated by BAU to go unchallenged!


    So, I say again misdirection!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Rubbish. Most lay people will have no idea how much energy is in a Hiroshima bomb. What would be much more easily understood would be "how many times the annual global domestic electricity usage" it equates to. The nuclear term is put in there purely as an association tool.
    Yes, people associate nuclear explosions with a great deal of energy
    Having 5 times that amount of energy a second added to the biosphere is having an impact on our weather, on atmospheric and oceanic currents, on melting ice sheets and on thermal expansion of the oceans


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    The point is, BAU is the main driver for all the mining & drilling etc, but some environmentalists are blaming farmers for having belching cows that contribute to CO2.


    By concentrating on CO2 a a culprit and blaming people for driving ICE vehicles & eating meat, it allows for the waste generated by BAU to go unchallenged!


    So, I say again misdirection!

    Could you elaborate on your interpretation.

    Of the global warming how much % do you attribute to human activity and of that % what is the breakdown within?

    Your posting up to this point had been to defend carbon forced AGW.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Yes, people associate nuclear explosions with a great deal of energy
    Having 5 times that amount of energy a second added to the biosphere is having an impact on our weather, on atmospheric and oceanic currents, on melting ice sheets and on thermal expansion of the oceans

    What would be a safe level being added then, seeing that at least a similar amount was being added from the 1920s to '40s?


  • Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nabber wrote: »
    Could you elaborate on your interpretation.

    Of the global warming how much % do you attribute to human activity and of that % what is the breakdown within?

    Your posting up to this point had been to defend carbon forced AGW.
    The rapid increases in CO2 can easily be attributed to human activity, the issue is that burning fossil fuels and agricultural activities (mainly slash & burn) are a major part of this increase. Carbon taxes only punish consumers, who in reality can only buy products that are manufactured for them, the destruction of much public transport infrastructure and the pricing out of accommodation from towns forces people into private cars.

    I am not defending CO2 emissions, I am pointing out that there is much more to the equation than just CO2 and recycling a few bits and pieces here and there.

    We have over the last century developed an incredibly wasteful way of life, a way of life that is engineered to transfer wealth to the top as fast as possible, climate change is mainly natural and is being exploited to divert people's attention away from the wasteful energy intensive and of course extremely profitable business of producing products that last as short a time as possible.

    If you want to use CO2 as a metric, then it is simple to imagine a factory that produces widgets that last only five years, must produce five times the quantity, than if the same factory if it produced the same widgets that lasted twenty five years. The five year product production generates five times more CO2 than would be produced if the products lasted twenty five years.

    In reality, what is really happening is that, we are simply moving resources from quarry to landfill much faster than we need to and this is clearly unsustainable in the long run.

    This is on top of all the other energy intensive waste generated by long distance commuting due to the unequal distribution of employment and unsustainably high housing costs where the employment is, this is where governments should be pushing businesses that can work in regional towns out of the major cities.

    There are many things can be done to reduce CO2 and pollution in general, but they won't be done, because a few people make a lot of money keeping things the way they are.


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