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J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    We've done this debate with the poster in question before. Ultimately they are a deconstructionist, whether they want to admit it or not, who believes there is no objective reality and nothing has any meaning. As such they can state absurdities like transwomen are female. Or stated another way, males are female.

    Pointing out people's understanding of what is male and female is essentially universal is pointless. As is trying to make them understand the importance of having agreed upon definitions of words, not just in a scientific context, but in an everyday context aswell.

    That is because what we talk about is faith. That person believes in something and beliefs most of the time do not fare well with reality. This, combined with some entitlement is a recipe for disaster if you try to engage with them.
    In their simple view if you do not agree with their believes you surely must be against.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Pretty sure a 7 year old isn't going to draw a fallopian tube either ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Nope, but it'll just demonstrate that a world full of 7 year olds have a better handle on life than you, they might not even resort to emojis to make their point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    RWCNT wrote: »
    The poster you responded to said "capable" not automatically, and you dismissed it out of hand. The fact anyone liked it fully displays the bad faith in which people have argued in this mess of a thread. I dont even agree with much of what LLMMLL has argued, but that was poor.

    All fiction absolutely isn't capable of giving insights into an author's attitudes about what they wrote.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    All fiction absolutely isn't capable of giving insights into the author who wrote it.

    The position of a ghostwriter would probably bear that out to be fair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    That is because what we talk about is faith. That person believes in something and beliefs most of the time do not fare well with reality. This, combined with some entitlement is a recipe for disaster if you try to engage with them.
    In their simple view if you do not agree with their believes you surely must be against.

    The exact same.can be said of those arguing against me. It's just their beliefs that they are right that allows them to characterise me in the above way


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    The position of a ghostwriter would probably bear that out to be fair.

    Actually a ghostwriter could easily bring aspects of their own views and personality into their writing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    The exact same.can be said of those arguing against me. It's just their beliefs that they are right that allows them to characterise me in the above way

    Do you think it's possible for someone to believe that they are in the right, fervently so, but they are actually wrong?would you accept that as a premise?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Do you think it's possible for someone to believe that they are in the right, fervently so, but they are actually wrong?would you accept that as a premise?

    Of course


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    The exact same.can be said of those arguing against me. It's just their beliefs that they are right that allows them to characterise me in the above way


    Calling a man a man, a woman a woman, and refusing to acknowledge that one can transition from one to the another is not an opinion or belief it is a biological fact.. .. .. As I've said before, there are species in most animal classes that can naturally undergo change in sex, mammals are not one of them; and if there are any mammals that can, primates are not among them [which we're part of btw]


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    The exact same.can be said of those arguing against me. It's just their beliefs that they are right that allows them to characterise me in the above way

    The fact that (human) males cannot be females is not a belief. It is objective reality.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Actually a ghostwriter could easily bring aspects of their own views and personality into their writing.

    Yeah exactly.. You missed the point... Who is to say how far it influences.. Or didn't influence. So you might make an assumption about something that had been ghostwritten, had editor's feedback, had test readings change it, been retconned etc. And myriad number of things to infer... But that's all you're doing. Inferring. Sometimes very very badly, like now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    All fiction absolutely isn't capable of giving insights into the author who wrote it.

    You've started your sentence with the word "all" there. So you think some can and some can't? How exactly does that work? We're not saying fiction definitively represents the views of an author here, but that it's possible. You can't possibly argue against that in any type of good faith.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    RWCNT wrote: »
    You've started your sentence with the word "all" there. So you think some can and some can't? How exactly does that work? We're not saying fiction definitively represents the views of an author here, but that it's possible. You can't possibly argue against that in any type of good faith.

    This is what the OP wrote.

    'And all fiction is capable of giving insights into the culture into which it was written. And the attitudes of the author who wrote it.'

    Notice their use of the word all. Maybe take your own advice and argue in good faith.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    The exact same.can be said of those arguing against me. It's just their beliefs that they are right that allows them to characterise me in the above way

    Most of the people simply have hard time to accept that fictional character in fictional novel issuing fictional threats to another fictional character warrant real life outrage and threats to a real person. You actually went a step further projecting your own thoughts and imagination about what may happen in real life because of this fiction. Not to mention that somehow you think or believe you know the person you decided to hate despite never met her in person. You pretty much know nothing about what person she is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    This is what the OP wrote.

    'And all fiction is capable of giving insights into the culture into which it was written. And the attitudes of the author who wrote it.'

    Notice their use of the word all. Maybe take your own advice and argue in good faith.

    Yes, ALL fiction is CAPABLE (not DOES, not ALWAYS WILL) of that. Are you following me? I'm arguing in complete good faith. If some fiction can then ALL of it can. Whether it actually DOES is where you could have a discusion.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    RWCNT wrote: »
    Yes, ALL fiction is CAPABLE (not DOES, not ALWAYS WILL) of that. Are you following me? I'm arguing in complete good faith. If some fiction can then ALL of it can. Whether it actually DOES is where you could have a discusion.

    No all fiction is not capable of that. You can infer essentially nothing about Stephen kings views on anything from his books.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    No all fiction is not capable of that. You can infer essentially nothing about Stephen kings views on anything from his books.

    OK, so using your chosen example, you don't think I could THEORISE what Stephen King's ideas are on crime and punishment, or the death penalty, from reading "The Green Mile"?

    Because I DID. In leaving cert English. I got a B if I remember correctly. You almost certainly were asked to do a similar exercise at school.

    Come on, man.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    The fact that (human) males cannot be females is not a belief. It is objective reality.

    Trans females were always female


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Yeah exactly.. You missed the point... Who is to say how far it influences.. Or didn't influence. So you might make an assumption about something that had been ghostwritten, had editor's feedback, had test readings change it, been retconned etc. And myriad number of things to infer... But that's all you're doing. Inferring. Sometimes very very badly, like now.

    It's not a bad inference. Anti trans campaigner has trans character threatened with prison rape by novel's hero in moment of triumph. It's a very clear inference.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Trans females were always female


    Female is biological, not psychological.. .. ..



    You know, the fact that this is even a debate in this day and age is extremely concerning.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Trans females were always female

    What is the definition of trans female?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Trans females were always female

    Wrong, spectacularly wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    jaxxx wrote: »
    Female is biological, not psychological.. .. ..



    You know, the fact that this is even a debate in this day and age is extremely concerning.

    Female is commonly used as the adjectival form of woman. When I say someone is a female engineer so I need to setup a scientific experiment to verify it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    It's not a bad inference. Anti trans campaigner has trans character threatened with prison rape by novel's hero in moment of triumph. It's a very clear inference.


    JK is not anti-trans, she is defending what it means to actually be a woman!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Female is commonly used as the adjectival form of woman. When I say someone is a female engineer so I need to setup a scientific experiment to verify it?


    I've given the definition of female already, you can take your adjectives to somewhere else. 'Female' is not a term used exclusively for humans either btw, it is a used for all animals as well as to describe the male and female part of plants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    RWCNT wrote: »
    OK, so using your chosen example, you don't think I could THEORISE what Stephen King's ideas are on crime and punishment, or the death penalty, from reading "The Green Mile"?

    Because I DID. In leaving cert English. I got a B if I remember correctly. You almost certainly were asked to do a similar exercise at school.

    Come on, man.

    You can of course infer anything you want about anything. You could read a trump speech (usually works of fiction) and infer that he is an antifa supporting communist if you'd like.

    But I am talking in a real sense. Not all works of fiction are capable of showing an authors views on something/anything. You can infer what you want but it would essentially be you making something up yourself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    jaxxx wrote: »
    I've given the definition of female already, you can take your adjectives to somewhere else. 'Female' is not a term used exclusively for humans either btw, it is a used for all animals as well as to describe the male and female part of plants.

    It's a non point anyway. The adjectival definition of female is (when referring to animals is:
    'of, relating to, or being a female animal.'

    So the adjectival form doesn't in anyway boost their argument.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    jaxxx wrote: »
    JK is not anti-trans, she is defending what it means to actually be a woman!

    She is clearly anti-trans


  • Registered Users Posts: 11 SqUEE


    The world is stupid


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    jaxxx wrote: »
    I've given the definition of female already, you can take your adjectives to somewhere else. 'Female' is not a term used exclusively for humans either btw, it is a used for all animals as well as to describe the male and female part of plants.

    Yes it is used for all those things. As well as the adjectival form of woman. So the gamete definition is clearly not complete.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    The irony of this entire debate is that the vast majority of people have never and would never have had an opinion or problem with the whole transgender issue at all if radical SJWs hadn't spent the 2010s attempting to literally erase any and all distinctions made between trans folk and biological men and women. For example: Most lesbians and gay men would probably have been fully on board with the trans rights campaign if some of the incredibly vocal extremists hadn't been pushing a narrative that the era of "gender is a social construct" meant that a person wasn't allowed to have sexual preferences anymore. I know that's one of the main reasons I first took issue with it - the idea which is commonly pedalled that in a world in which there is literally no difference between someone who is born male or female and someone who identifies as such - post-op or non-op - and that I, as a straight lad, was some kind of bigot for being uncomfortable with dating or engaging in sexual activities with someone who wasn't biologically female.

    The fact, to take one ludicrous and lighthearted example, that you can specify your sexual preference on dating websites and apps, but it is now irrelevant as people of the opposite sex can and do sign up as the opposite gender and as such are still able to interact with your profile despite the fact that you've made it clear you're not sexually interested in people of that sex - and that dating apps and websites have been attacked, hounded and vilified in the past for enforcing rules about this to the point of all-but-abandoning the concept of gender selection on their platforms.

    That's a silly and minor lighthearted example of how ludicrous it is - the fact that I, a straight man, can come across other men on Tinder or whatever because they 'identify' as women even though I would have set my profile to say that I'm not interested in matching with other men. But that's obviously a silly and minor issue (unless of course someone ends up riding somebody who hasn't disclosed this, in which case it would by all feminist metrics count as rape by deception - and has happened a number of times in the US with varying horrible consequences) - it's no real problem and is just mildly amusing and absurd in the majority of cases.

    Taken in other contexts though and it really does become a problem - for example, one of the lesbian forums on Reddit recently had a bit of an upheaval because someone posted that she had been attacked for being "transphobic" for not wanting to date a man, because he either identified as a woman or had actually had surgery to that effect (can't remember which). This caused a serious drama over there between those who attacked OP as transphobic for not being willing to date a woman-identifying-male, and those who regarded sexual preference as a personal choice and the idea of biological men invading lesbian spaces and biological women invading gay spaces under the pretext of transgender identity as utterly absurd.

    Once the extremists began to push that narrative, it suddenly became everyone's problem, as opposed to just a personal issue which the vast majority of decent, non-judgmental people wouldn't have taken any issue with on the grounds of "you do you, live and let live" etc. This is the aspect of trans ideology which is causing so much havoc, doing so much harm both to society in general and to the trans movement itself, and is itself now unquestionable under threat of being "cancelled" if you do speak up about it.

    I refer once again to the following graphic, which on the surface seems like something ridiculous to laugh at, but taken to its logical conclusion is the basis on which many SJW types are attempting to deny people the right to a sexual preference.

    p8Xng5x.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Yes it is used for all those things. As well as the adjectival form of woman. So the gamete definition is clearly not complete.

    It is complete when referencing humans.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    It is complete when referencing humans.

    No it misses out on the adjectival definition.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    The irony of this entire debate is that the vast majority of people have never and would never have had an opinion or problem with the whole transgender issue at all if radical SJWs hadn't spent the 2010s attempting to literally erase any and all distinctions made between trans folk and biological men and women. For example: Most lesbians and gay men would probably have been fully on board with the trans rights campaign if some of the incredibly vocal extremists hadn't been pushing a narrative that the era of "gender is a social construct" meant that a person wasn't allowed to have sexual preferences anymore. I know that's one of the main reasons I first took issue with it - the idea which is commonly pedalled that in a world in which there is literally no difference between someone who is born male or female and someone who identifies as such - post-op or non-op - and that I, as a straight lad, was some kind of bigot for being uncomfortable with dating or engaging in sexual activities with someone who wasn't biologically female.

    The fact, to take one ludicrous and lighthearted example, that you can specify your sexual preference on dating websites and apps, but it is now irrelevant as people of the opposite sex can and do sign up as the opposite gender and as such are still able to interact with your profile despite the fact that you've made it clear you're not sexually interested in people of that sex - and that dating apps and websites have been attacked, hounded and vilified in the past for enforcing rules about this to the point of all-but-abandoning the concept of gender selection on their platforms.

    That's a silly and minor lighthearted example of how ludicrous it is - the fact that I, a straight man, can come across other men on Tinder or whatever because they 'identify' as women even though I would have set my profile to say that I'm not interested in matching with other men. But that's obviously a silly and minor issue (unless of course someone ends up riding somebody who hasn't disclosed this, in which case it would by all feminist metrics count as rape by deception - and has happened a number of times in the US with varying horrible consequences) - it's no real problem and is just mildly amusing and absurd in the majority of cases.

    Taken in other contexts though and it really does become a problem - for example, one of the lesbian forums on Reddit recently had a bit of an upheaval because someone posted that she had been attacked for being "transphobic" for not wanting to date a man, because he either identified as a woman or had actually had surgery to that effect (can't remember which). This caused a serious drama over there between those who attacked OP as transphobic for not being willing to date a woman-identifying-male, and those who regarded sexual preference as a personal choice and the idea of biological men invading lesbian spaces and biological women invading gay spaces under the pretext of transgender identity as utterly absurd.

    Once the extremists began to push that narrative, it suddenly became everyone's problem, as opposed to just a personal issue which the vast majority of decent, non-judgmental people wouldn't have taken any issue with on the grounds of "you do you, live and let live" etc. This is the aspect of trans ideology which is causing so much havoc, doing so much harm both to society in general and to the trans movement itself, and is itself now unquestionable under threat of being "cancelled" if you do speak up about it.

    I refer once again to the following graphic, which on the surface seems like something ridiculous to laugh at, but taken to its logical conclusion is the basis on which many SJW types are attempting to deny people the right to a sexual preference.

    p8Xng5x.png


    Yeah that Tweet was what I saw and wept, who knew we’d go further from sanity ?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    I’ll tell you what really gets on my nerves - the word “identify”.

    Gay people have for so long been trying to be accepted as being born gay, as they are. Now these numpties keep saying “... identify as gay” and undo decades of progress.

    It’s bloody maddening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Trans females were always female

    And Oceana has always been at war with Eastasia.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭metaoblivia


    The irony of this entire debate is that the vast majority of people have never and would never have had an opinion or problem with the whole transgender issue at all if radical SJWs hadn't spent the 2010s attempting to literally erase any and all distinctions made between trans folk and biological men and women.

    I agree with this. Look, I'm happy to call a person by their preferred pronouns and chosen names, etc. But there was a time when trans activists would say, "there's a difference between sex and gender. Sex is biological, gender is a social construct." And I agree with that. But now it seems they're trying to claim - or rather, ignore - the biological part too, and that just doesn't sit well with me. And if you disagree, they'd rather call you names instead of sitting down and having a rational discussion about how transwomen maybe, you know, shouldn't compete in the same sports category with biological women. Maybe, at an all women's spa, the majority of the patrons don't want to see a "female penis" hanging out. When did the wants of an small minority start to outweigh the needs of a much larger majority?

    And the way some trans folks want to be linguistically coddled, i.e. people with uteri? That's not inclusive, it's dehumanizing. We call it objectification when straight men choose to view women solely through the lens of their female body parts. "People with uteri" feels no different.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    You can of course infer anything you want about anything. You could read a trump speech (usually works of fiction) and infer that he is an antifa supporting communist if you'd like.

    But I am talking in a real sense. Not all works of fiction are capable of showing an authors views on something/anything. You can infer what you want but it would essentially be you making something up yourself.

    You generally have to back up your inferrance with some logically sound reasoning in order to receive a passing mark - this is what literary students do in their assignments - everyone who did English in secondary school did this. They also studied poems and novels and learned about the most supported analyses of the themes and motifs to learn how its done. You'd have a serious job inferring credibly that Trump is a supporter of antifa. I'd honestly love to see someone have a crack at that.

    I have no idea what you mean by "I'm talking in a real sense" - of course we can't draw a firm conclusion, and that was never the point. Of course all works of fiction can offer a potential insight into the authors worldview. This is the entire basis of literary analysis as practised for hundreds and hundreds of years. You're an absolute gas man Cteven, and thanks for the chat but I've probably dragged the thread off topic enough at this stage. You can repeat yourself again if you want and call it a W. Have a good one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭Airyfairy12


    I just saw on a news article today that the HSE website has removed any reference to 'women' on their cervical cancer sources. Theyve changed the word 'women' to 'people with cervixes' - No mention of the term man or men being offensive in any of the male related health sources, they didnt change the prostate cancer page from men to 'people with prostates' - How ridiculous does that phrase even sound?

    Recently read an article that was about creating equality for 'people who menstruate'

    Pregnant women must now be referred to as 'Pregnant people'

    These are easily the most Patronising and belittling statements ive heard referring to women in a long time. Literally up there with calling us Sluts and hoes. Derogatory and reduces us to body parts and body functions.


    Clearly trans women have never had to experience the constant threat and fear of being raped, sexually and physically abused and as such dont understand why cis women might be uncomfortable with the idea of biological men - regardless of how they identify - in womens changing rooms, refuges and public toilets. Is biological womens safety now the sacrifice to be made so as not to offend trans women?
    Apparently even when men identify as female their given more rights over biological women.

    Feels like we're being erased. Im shocked at how so many people cant see this or dont care and get offended when it's mentioned. Trans women are coming across as misogynists who hate biological women! They want more rights at our expense, even if it means it puts biological women in physical danger.

    Its worrying how many celebrities have spoken up against JK Rowling..


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    I just saw on a news article today that the HSE website has removed any reference to 'women' on their cervical cancer sources. Theyve changed the word 'women' to 'people with cervixes' - No mention of the term man or men being offensive in any of the male related health sources, they didnt change the prostate cancer page from men to 'people with prostates' - How ridiculous does that phrase even sound?

    Recently read an article that was about creating equality for 'people who menstruate'

    Pregnant women must now be referred to as 'Pregnant people'

    These are easily the most Patronising and belittling statements ive heard referring to women in a long time. Literally up there with calling us Sluts and hoes. Derogatory and reduces us to body parts and body functions.


    Clearly trans women have never had to experience the constant threat and fear of being raped, sexually and physically abused and as such dont understand why cis women might be uncomfortable with the idea of biological men - regardless of how they identify - in womens changing rooms, refuges and public toilets. Is biological womens safety now the sacrifice to be made so as not to offend trans women?
    Apparently even when men identify as female their given more rights over biological women.

    Feels like we're being erased. Im shocked at how so many people cant see this or dont care and get offended when it's mentioned. Trans women are coming across as misogynists who hate biological women! They want more rights at our expense, even if it means it puts biological women in physical danger.

    Its worrying how many celebrities have spoken up against JK Rowling..

    I brought up the HSE thing months ago on this or another thread and was told by the usual suspects that I was lying and hysterical because at the time there was one single incidence of woman on the page (that wasn't there months previous btw). This stuff has been going on for a while now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭rightmove


    No mention of the term man or men being offensive in any of the male related health sources, they didnt change the prostate cancer page from men to 'people with prostates' - ...
    Apparently even when men identify as female their given more rights over biological women.

    Even when its LGBTABCDEFG V women = mens fault somehow :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭JoannaJag


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    I brought up the HSE thing months ago on this or another thread and was told by the usual suspects that I was lying and hysterical because at the time there was one single incidence of woman on the page (that wasn't there months previous btw). This stuff has been going on for a while now.

    Anyone who is concerned by this should make a complaint to the HSE. I have. There’s no reason to remove the word “woman” once you are including trans men and non binary people. “Woman and people with a cervix” Or “women, trans men and non binary people with a cervix” would cover it easily.

    https://www2.hse.ie/services/forms/your-service-your-say/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭ Uriah Wrong Fashion


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    I brought up the HSE thing months ago on this or another thread and was told by the usual suspects that I was lying and hysterical because at the time there was one single incidence of woman on the page (that wasn't there months previous btw). This stuff has been going on for a while now.

    why are we pandering to a tiny minority....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    JoannaJag wrote: »
    Anyone who is concerned by this should make a complaint to the HSE. I have. There’s no reason to remove the word “woman” once you are including trans men and non binary people. “Woman and people with a cervix” Or “women, trans men and non binary people with a cervix” would cover it easily.

    https://www2.hse.ie/services/forms/your-service-your-say/

    Completely in agreement with this and just sent a similar suggestion after reading your post. Even a note at the start of the guidance saying it applies to those groups as well, as repeating it in every single instance may make the guidance a bit wordy. I think all but the most extreme wings of this argument would be fine with this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    RWCNT wrote: »
    Completely in agreement with this and just sent a similar suggestion after reading your post. Even a note at the start of the guidance saying it applies to those groups as well, as repeating it in every single instance may make the guidance a bit wordy. I think all but the most extreme wings of this argument would be fine with this.

    By far the most people are not on the extreme wings. Keeping the category and word woman as it is but noting that the campaign targets others with a cervix also is the nost sensible thing. It is extremism to obliterate the word woman. Or to obliterate the biological reality of female. Yet it would seem govt bodies are choosing to be extremists.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,609 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    why are we pandering to a tiny minority....

    Because they are lobbying effectively for their views, while the presumed silent majority is not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    Gruffalox wrote: »
    By far the most people are not on the extreme wings. Keeping the category and word woman as it is but noting that the campaign targets others with a cervix also is the nost sensible thing. It is extremism to obliterate the word woman. Or to obliterate the biological reality of female. Yet it would seem govt bodies are choosing to be extremists.


    It's definitely the most sensible thing, as you say, guidance like this above all things must be clear - and that's as clear as you can be.

    The debate around use of language such as discussed above, I've long found quite paradoxical. Each group, in different senses, are effectively saying "I don't want to be reduced to just being an organism with certain body parts".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    RWCNT wrote: »
    It's definitely the most sensible thing, as you say, guidance like this above all things must be clear - and that's as clear as you can be.

    The debate around use of language such as discussed above, I've long found quite paradoxical. Each group, in different senses, are effectively saying "I don't want to be reduced to just being an organism with certain body parts".


    The debate around the use of words like man woman male female is not long. It is quite new. Whereas man woman male female and the innate instinctive knowing of these as such is as old as human like creatures have been on earth.

    The attempt to overthrow language and its shared meaning is quite subversive. It is not simply an intellectual exercise. Sophisticated language is fundamental to the difference between us and other creatures. And no that does not mean someone who does not speak etc etc...we are submersed in language and meaning.

    If asked to describe a male who has identified as a woman we can easily say transwoman because it has meaning. To say woman is a further step which is not true but a good few may go along to be supportive. To say this person is female is subversive to reason and to subvert reason by means of ideology is dangerous, both to the compeller or to the compelled.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    We live in a country where we have some of the most liberal regulations around self identification that support trans people transitioning and living their life in their preferred gender role. I think this is a good thing. There are however a lot of parallels between people who believe transwomen are female and flat earthers. Thankfully most normal people don't actually seriously entertain either idea.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭mohawk


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    I brought up the HSE thing months ago on this or another thread and was told by the usual suspects that I was lying and hysterical because at the time there was one single incidence of woman on the page (that wasn't there months previous btw). This stuff has been going on for a while now.

    A couple months ago I had zero interest in anything to do with trans issues. I thought let them live their life as whatever as long as no one is being hurt then who cares.
    But then I started to see things like pregnant people and people who menstrate and It really grates on me. It reminds me of the way certain men just stare at my chest instead of looking at my face when talking to me.

    Well it may hurt peoples feelings but pregnancy and periods, not getting periods, cervix’s, hysterectomies Etc are women’s issues. Yes they also affect Transmen and Non Binary people who were born female but their bodies and genetics are female. Self acceptance is one if the greatest things you can do for yourself. Is it not healthier for people to acknowledge that they have changed gender and that it’s okay for a Transman to go to a gynaecologist. It’s also okay that there will always be differences between women and transwomen. Different doesn’t mean unequal.

    Redefining the word women to how a person feels doesn’t make sense for most women. It’s not how I felt inside that made me be harassed by men in the past. It was most definitely that I am clearly female and am easy overpowered physically by a man aka the biological stuff.


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