Dangerous roadside structure

ba_barabus · 16-06-2021 5:23pm #1

Question folks, I pass a house daily where the owner has built some very rough mounds of stones encased in concrete right at the edge of the road at either side of their driveway. There are no marking or reflectors on them, their also on the edge of a turn on top of a hill and overgrown with grass. Despite knowing they're there I've nearly hit them several times. Thankfully I've avoided them but a car at the weekend wasn't so lucky and ended up being written off.

Can the Gardai or Council get the owner to remove them or at least make them safer?

I did speak to the Gardai who insisted they're nothing to do with them and it's a Council matter. I also know the council have spoken to him but he's done nothing. I also spoke to the person who built them who said he made them dangerous so people wouldn't hit them.

Just wonder of anyone has come across something like this before.

sprucemoose · 16-06-2021 5:24pm

ba_barabus wrote: »

Question folks, I pass a house daily where the owner has built some very rough mounds of stones encased in concrete right at the edge of the road at either side of their driveway. There are no marking or reflectors on them, their also on the edge of a turn on top of a hill and overgrown with grass. Despite knowing they're there I've nearly hit them several times. Thankfully I've avoided them but a car at the weekend wasn't so lucky and ended up being written off.

Can the Gardai or Council get the owner to remove them or at least make them safer?

I did speak to the Gardai who insisted they're nothing to do with them and it's a Council matter. I also know the council have spoken to him but he's done nothing. I also spoke to the person who built them who said he made them dangerous so people wouldn't hit them.

Just wonder of anyone has come across something like this before.

sounds like it could be a planning issue potentially

zg3409 · 16-06-2021 5:24pm

Photo please

ba_barabus · 16-06-2021 5:30pm

sprucemoose wrote: »

sounds like it could be a planning issue potentially

Exactly what the Gardai said and fair enough if it is.

No photos, I'm not identifying his home.

sprucemoose · 16-06-2021 5:33pm

ba_barabus wrote: »

Exactly what the Gardai said and fair enough if it is.

No photos, I'm not identifying his home.

ring your local planning dept and talk to them about it is probably the best start. if doesnt have planning then an enforcement against the works might be issued. the owner could go for retention permission for the works but if its as dangerous as you say then it may not be granted

zg3409 · 16-06-2021 6:21pm

If it's there over 7 years without a planning complaint then it might be difficult to move. Who owns the land it is on?

iwillhtfu · 16-06-2021 6:31pm

It's common to see these on houses that have their walls set back from the road but still own the land up to the road side. It's even more common where someone may use this piece of land as a parking area or layby.

Either way they're doing nothing wrong and it could easily be a wall there in place of the stones. Typically they'll fill bollards or buckets with concrete or something along those lines

zg3409 · 16-06-2021 6:36pm

iwillhtfu wrote: »

It's common to see these on houses that have their walls set back from the road but still own the land up to the road side. It's even more common where someone may use this piece of land as a parking area or layby.

Either way they're doing nothing wrong and it could easily be a wall there in place of the stones. Typically they'll fill bollards or buckets with concrete or something along those lines

Often the planning says when for example you build on a conservatory at the rear the catch is that you need to make the narrow road wider. They move the wall back, but try to keep ownership beyond the wall which is public road, or intended to be by planners.

ba_barabus · 16-06-2021 7:43pm

zg3409 wrote: »

If it's there over 7 years without a planning complaint then it might be difficult to move. Who owns the land it is on?

Nope, just a few months.

iwillhtfu wrote: »

It's common to see these on houses that have their walls set back from the road but still own the land up to the road side. It's even more common where someone may use this piece of land as a parking area or layby.

Either way they're doing nothing wrong and it could easily be a wall there in place of the stones. Typically they'll fill bollards or buckets with concrete or something along those lines

I'm pretty certain from my own house buying experience that anything beyond the front wall is for the council to use and maintain as needs. So placing a hazard there isn't acceptable. And placing said hazard touching the road even less so. This isn't s bucket btw, it's a fixed concrete pile of rocks.

zg3409 wrote: »

Often the planning says when for example you build on a conservatory at the rear the catch is that you need to make the narrow road wider. They move the wall back, but try to keep ownership beyond the wall which is public road, or intended to be by planners.

Pretty much, my parents house built in the 70s had this impact them, only took 30 years for the planned for footpath to be built.

iwillhtfu · 16-06-2021 7:53pm

ba_barabus wrote: »

I'm pretty certain from my own house buying experience that anything beyond the front wall is for the council to use and maintain as needs. So placing a hazard there isn't acceptable. And placing said hazard touching the road even less so. This isn't s bucket btw, it's a fixed concrete pile of rocks.

That isn't he case if the council don't own it.

Report it on https://fixmystreet.ie/ the council are pretty good at reacting to notices on there. If they do nothing with it then it's likely private land.

ba_barabus · 16-06-2021 7:57pm

iwillhtfu wrote: »

That isn't he case if the council don't own it.

Report it on https://fixmystreet.ie/ the council are pretty good at reacting to notices on there. If they do nothing with it then it's likely private land.

If you look at thr land maps to any house they "own" up to the middle of the road. This is a modern house with a wall well back from the road so I'd be surprised if it wasn't subject to the same rules as all others.

Either way it's not really something we can understand here without info from the owner.

Thanks for the link however, will submit a report there.

iwillhtfu · 16-06-2021 8:14pm

ba_barabus wrote: »

If you look at thr land maps to any house they "own" up to the middle of the road..

I always thought that was an old wives tale to be honest. You could also look on https://www.landdirect.ie/ to see if the piece of land is attached to the house plot.

ba_barabus · 16-06-2021 8:25pm

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I always thought that was an old wives tale to be honest. You could also look on https://www.landdirect.ie/ to see if the piece of land is attached to the house plot.

Not according to our solicitor when we were buying as I thought initially it was a mistake.

Decoda · 16-06-2021 9:23pm

Contact your county councils road section and ask that your district roads engineer assess the situation and issue a section 70 notice under the roads act. I've seen notices been issued for examples like steel bars set into the road edge or stones / blocks laid along the grass verge to stop vehicles driving on it etc. In most rural cases the land map extends to the centre line of the road and anything within the curtilage of the public road (between the fence lines / walls / boundary ditches) would be covered by a section 70 notice.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1993/act/14/section/70/enacted/en/html

Dangerous structures, trees, etc.

70.—(1) (a) The owner or occupier of any structure and the owner or occupier of any land on which a structure is situated shall take all reasonable steps to ensure that the structure or the use of the structure is not a hazard or potential hazard to persons using a public road and that it does not obstruct or interfere with the safe use of a public road or the maintenance of a public road.

(b) Where a structure or the use of a structure is a hazard or potential hazard to persons using a public road or where it obstructs or interferes with the safe use of a public road or with the maintenance of a public road, a road authority may serve a notice in writing on the owner or occupier of the structure or on the owner or occupier of any land on which the structure is situated to remove, modify or carry out specified works in relation to the structure within the period stated in the notice.

ba_barabus · 16-06-2021 9:56pm

Now you're talking

kaahooters · 17-06-2021 1:44pm

right, found this,

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-31002499.html

"So, does a registered owner of a property own the land extending out to the middle of the public road which abuts it, or is it limited to the physical boundary of the property itself?

While boundaries may, sometimes, appear to reach, on the map attached to a folio, to the middle of the road, it is generally taken that a property owner’s title extends only as far as that property’s own boundary, fence, gate, hedgerow etc, unless a property owner can show evidence to the contrary."

seems its planning issue.

Decoda · 17-06-2021 7:57pm

kaahooters wrote: »

right, found this,

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-31002499.html

"So, does a registered owner of a property own the land extending out to the middle of the public road which abuts it, or is it limited to the physical boundary of the property itself?

While boundaries may, sometimes, appear to reach, on the map attached to a folio, to the middle of the road, it is generally taken that a property owner’s title extends only as far as that property’s own boundary, fence, gate, hedgerow etc, unless a property owner can show evidence to the contrary."

seems its planning issue.

As I've said above it's a roads issue, I've personally seen numerous Section 70 notices being issued to landowners for a whole range of dangerous objects placed along the road edge, steel bars, concrete posts, barrels, you name it I've seen it removed. Planning or Planning enforcement will not get involved as its within the curtilage of the public road. The Roads section are the only people within the council that will have powers under the Roads Act to remove something that's a road safety concern.

And yes, if your land registry map shows your boundary is out to the centre line of the road then you own it.....but theres nothing you can do with it as it's the curtilage of the public road......but saying that if the council come along and need to use it for a road scheme they'll have to compensate the landowner for its loss....

jelutong · 17-06-2021 8:00pm

I hope the owner of the written off car gets proper advice on the legality or otherwise of the structures.

listermint · 17-06-2021 8:02pm

kaahooters wrote: »

right, found this,

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-31002499.html

"So, does a registered owner of a property own the land extending out to the middle of the public road which abuts it, or is it limited to the physical boundary of the property itself?

While boundaries may, sometimes, appear to reach, on the map attached to a folio, to the middle of the road, it is generally taken that a property owner’s title extends only as far as that property’s own boundary, fence, gate, hedgerow etc, unless a property owner can show evidence to the contrary."

seems its planning issue.

I own the land out to the middle of our road. However it's not a through road and is marked as a private lane. Our neighbors also own the land out that far too.

listermint · 17-06-2021 8:02pm

jelutong wrote: »

I hope the owner of the written off car gets proper advice on the legality or otherwise of the structures.

Well they did leave the road at speed. Which presuming was actually nothing to do with the structures more to do with their driving...

HerrKapitan · 17-06-2021 8:12pm

listermint wrote: »

Well they did leave the road at speed. Which presuming was actually nothing to do with the structures more to do with their driving...

And the stone structure may have potentially protected the out of control car from entering the driveway or damaging the wall or anyone in the garden.

ba_barabus · 17-06-2021 8:39pm

listermint wrote: »

Well they did leave the road at speed. Which presuming was actually nothing to do with the structures more to do with their driving...

The problem is, this structure is on the left side of a left turn, there is literally no room for any loss of concentration. The others issue is they don't want cars driving on the end of their driveway which I've found out today was put there by the council due to a complaint when they resurfaced the road surface water was entering the driveway.

I've spoken to someone who deals with these matters, seems they've had multiple complaints and the owner is digging in saying its their land and they'll do what they want on it. Apparently the crash will help move things along. They're waiting on the Garda report

Isambard · 18-06-2021 8:13am

you sometimes see a house where they've tarmacced the strip in front of their wall, alongside the road itself , and then placed concrete blocks or even flowerpots, to stop anyone actually driving on it. Bizarre but that's Folk for you , you can't use it, but then neither can they!

Duckjob · 18-06-2021 9:32am

jelutong wrote: »

I hope the owner of the written off car gets proper advice on the legality or otherwise of the structures.

Assuming the structures are not actually protruding into the road itself, then I hope the owner of the car written off learns to adjust their driving speed more to the road conditions he/she sees ahead of him/her on the road.

Pretty hard to see how your car could be written off by a something actually not on the road if the conditions are as sketchy as the OP described and the driver slowed down appropriately.

Toyotafanboi · 18-06-2021 10:55am

Duckjob wrote: »

Assuming the structures are not actually protruding into the road itself, then I hope the owner of the car written off learns to adjust their driving speed more to the road conditions he/she sees ahead of him/her on the road.

Pretty hard to see how your car could be written off by a something actually not on the road if the conditions are as sketchy as the OP described and the driver slowed down appropriately.

Yeah, those are my thought's. What happened to driving to the conditions and taking responsibility for that?

The front of my place used to be thick heavy trees and ditch drooping over into the road, made worse by it being over the brow of a blind hill.

Cleared it all away to clean up the road edge and make is safer pulling out of the house. We left the boundary right to the edge of the hill brow tapering back to around 1500mm over 40 odd meters, all tarred. It just gets used as a pull in and parking area now by the public. Makes it even worse than before for road users and ourselves, even came out one day to find a rigid truck driver taking a lunch break on it.

Considered doing the auld white stones and flower pots but a bit like this thread, i was nervous that the first fella to crease his car on my flower pot on my ground would be whinging that he wasn't expecting it to be there and i'd somehow be wrong for the whole thing.

There can be no winning, nobody can accept responsibility for their own actions anymore, it has to be someone elses fault. If you're the one who made the changes, even changes for the better, it seems like it's your baby then.

jelutong · 18-06-2021 1:47pm

I’ve an area of tarmac approximately 40 mtrs x 3mtrs outside my boundary wall.
Once in the blue moon someone parks there for a few minutes while making a phone call or whatever. It doesn’t bother me in the least. I wouldn’t dream of putting an obstruction on it.

Spook_ie · 19-06-2021 11:30am

Do objects adjacent to a road not require reflective/hi Viz markers?

listermint · 19-06-2021 11:38am

ba_barabus wrote: »

The problem is, this structure is on the left side of a left turn, there is literally no room for any loss of concentration. The others issue is they don't want cars driving on the end of their driveway which I've found out today was put there by the council due to a complaint when they resurfaced the road surface water was entering the driveway.

I've spoken to someone who deals with these matters, seems they've had multiple complaints and the owner is digging in saying its their land and they'll do what they want on it. Apparently the crash will help move things along. They're waiting on the Garda report

Loss of concentration .... Youre driving a two ton plus vehicle you shouldn't be on your phone or looking at your arse. I don't see how this is the home owners fault. Perhaps driving at the speed the road dictates and put the phone in the glovebox would have been a better choice for this particular driver.

haskellgeek · 19-06-2021 11:41am

Leaving aside the car crash case, that's a huge liability for the owners they should have insurance on that land and I'd wonder what the insurer would think of it!

listermint · 19-06-2021 11:44am

haskellgeek wrote: »

Leaving aside the car crash case, that's a huge liability for the owners they should have insurance on that land and I'd wonder what the insurer would think of it!

Interesting point but the same liability would ensue with people parking on it. Only solution is to fence it all off right up to the road then... And I'm sure the cc wouldn't allow that either. So ?..

haskellgeek · 19-06-2021 11:53am

listermint wrote: »

Interesting point but the same liability would ensue with people parking on it. Only solution is to fence it all off right up to the road then... And I'm sure the cc wouldn't allow that either. So ?..

Still if its private property its your responsibility for liability if someone was to injure themselves on it, which is possiblly off topic but if someone was to accidently crash into there structures it would be an interesting one.

Duckjob · 19-06-2021 11:56am

listermint wrote: »

Loss of concentration .... Youre driving a two ton plus vehicle you shouldn't be on your phone or looking at your arse. I don't see how this is the home owners fault. Perhaps driving at the speed the road dictates and put the phone in the glovebox would have been a better choice for this particular driver.

You mean, <GASP> , actually expect people to treat the act of driving a heavy vehicle with the high level of respect and attention it deserves ? No way!

My immediate impulse when I first read the OP was to offer a flippant jokey comment about the written off car being the structures fault for not wearing hi-vis.

I decided I should try to offer something more constructive instead, but I can see now that someone has actually posed the question of why the structures weren't wearing hi-vis, apparently in full seriousness.

Spook_ie · 19-06-2021 12:09pm

Duckjob wrote: »

You mean, <GASP> , actually expect people to treat the act of driving a heavy vehicle with the high level of respect and attention it deserves ? No way!

My immediate impulse when I first read the OP was to offer a flippant jokey comment about the written off car being the structures fault for not wearing hi-vis.

I decided I should try to offer something more constructive instead, but I can see now that someone has actually posed the question of why the structures weren't wearing hi-vis, apparently in full seriousness.

I asked it ( In all seriousness ) because all ( most ) hazards in Fingal have Reflective/HiViz markers anyways
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1993/act/14/section/70/enacted/en/html#sec70

70. - (1) ( a ) The owner or occupier of any structure and the owner or occupier of any land on which a structure is situated shall take all reasonable steps to ensure that the structure or the use of the structure is not a hazard or potential hazard to persons using a public road and that it does not obstruct or interfere with the safe use of a public road or the maintenance of a public road.

( b ) Where a structure or the use of a structure is a hazard or potential hazard to persons using a public road or where it obstructs or interferes with the safe use of a public road or with the maintenance of a public road, a road authority may serve a notice in writing on the owner or occupier of the structure or on the owner or occupier of any land on which the structure is situated to remove, modify or carry out specified works in relation to the structure within the period stated in the notice .

Who ever put it there would seem to be open to liability

Duckjob · 19-06-2021 12:36pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

I asked it ( In all seriousness ) because all ( most ) hazards in Fingal have Reflective/HiViz markers anyways
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1993/act/14/section/70/enacted/en/html#sec70

Who ever put it there would seem to be open to liability

The structures didn't move out into the road itself, so as another poster has already pointed out, the fact is the driver of the car written off drove their car off the road at a speed significant enough to write it off.

You may be right in supposing that the structures owner might find themselves open to legal liability.

The doesn't infer that the correct thing to do is to treat drivers of 2 tonne vehicles like toddlers in a romper room.

Where does it end in defining "hazards?" Should we shart forcing the trees and hedges lining our rural roads to wear hi-vis too ?

Casati · 20-06-2021 10:11pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

I asked it ( In all seriousness ) because all ( most ) hazards in Fingal have Reflective/HiViz markers anyways
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1993/act/14/section/70/enacted/en/html#sec70

Who ever put it there would seem to be open to liability

We have a very wide driveway positioned on a bend which is basically one car wide- most people on approach serve into and out of our driveway to make room i.e. in case if the are meet a car at the bend. I've often wondered if I could legally put a fixed concrete object like this lad is doing to stop the hundreds of cars a day from using part of my driveway? V. interested to see how the OP gets on with this

Isambard · 21-06-2021 2:35am

Casati wrote: »

We have a very wide driveway positioned on a bend which is basically one car wide- most people on approach serve into and out of our driveway to make room i.e. in case if the are meet a car at the bend. I've often wondered if I could legally put a fixed concrete object like this lad is doing to stop the hundreds of cars a day from using part of my driveway? V. interested to see how the OP gets on with this

I don't think you can with impunity. You could perhaps have installed a kerb and a grass margin rather than tarmac. As it is , it sounds like your drive has become part of the Highway. How about those plastic poles the Council use?

Casati · 21-06-2021 9:48am

Isambard wrote: »

I don't think you can with impunity. You could perhaps have installed a kerb and a grass margin rather than tarmac. As it is , it sounds like your drive has become part of the Highway. How about those plastic poles the Council use?

You are correct, my driveway has become used as part of the highway, but it’s still my driveway. We offered land to the council to widen the road free of charge but they said they had no budget to do works. I don’t blame somebody like the op’s neighbour trying to protect their land but I honestly don’t know the legal position

Spook_ie · 21-06-2021 10:57am

Casati wrote: »

We have a very wide driveway positioned on a bend which is basically one car wide- most people on approach serve into and out of our driveway to make room i.e. in case if the are meet a car at the bend. I've often wondered if I could legally put a fixed concrete object like this lad is doing to stop the hundreds of cars a day from using part of my driveway? V. interested to see how the OP gets on with this

If you're thinking along those lines, then why not convert it from a wide driveway to a more standard one?

Casati · 21-06-2021 11:11am

Spook_ie wrote: »

If you're thinking along those lines, then why not convert it from a wide driveway to a more standard one?

Its built to match the planning application so change the walls etc would require another planning application.

fancy pigeon · 21-06-2021 12:24pm

listermint wrote: »

Loss of concentration .... Youre driving a two ton plus vehicle you shouldn't be on your phone or looking at your arse. I don't see how this is the home owners fault. Perhaps driving at the speed the road dictates and put the phone in the glovebox would have been a better choice for this particular driver.

This reminds me of a situation that happened in circa 2006, I think. We had our gate stolen (by "contractors" :rolleyes:) so in it's place I parked a car. It was half dismantled but still drove and we didn't want a repeat of someone attempting to swing in a caravan into the garden, only to stop as I happened to be looking straight at them attempting this :rolleyes::rolleyes:

So you can imagine how funny I found someone gawping at the car, instead of where they were going, and ran into the solid bank of clay at the corner smashing their bumper, wing and headlight in the process

They drove off in a temper, dragging the front bumper along in the process, as I fell over laughing

timple23 · 21-06-2021 1:38pm

I know of someone who put concrete "pyramids" about 1 ft high outside their pier to stop people doing u turns. One morning I see an audi perched up on top of one after they attempted a u turn, and the owner coming with a tractor with a fork going to attempt to lift it up. Wonder would the houseowner be liable?

ba_barabus · 22-06-2021 11:57am

listermint wrote: »

Loss of concentration .... Youre driving a two ton plus vehicle you shouldn't be on your phone or looking at your arse. I don't see how this is the home owners fault. Perhaps driving at the speed the road dictates and put the phone in the glovebox would have been a better choice for this particular driver.

Sorry been away for a few days but I see I missed the arrival of the calvary. Nobody mentioned phones or speed but glad to see someone is thinking of the children.

I've described the bend above but for the benefit of others this is a rough structure of stones and concrete on a dark turn with no reflectors. It's also covered in grass so isn't visible to anyone.

People make mistakes without phones or speed involved. Obviously not you.

I'll park it at this point and reopen it once I've seen what action the council have taken. As outlined above they're already dealing with multiple complaints about it.

Can a mod lock this before the grunting calvary arrive to point out issues not mentioned.

Dangerous roadside structure

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