Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Please note that it is not permitted to have referral links posted in your signature. Keep these links contained in the appropriate forum. Thank you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules

Dangerous roadside structure

Options
  • 16-06-2021 5:23pm
    #1
    ba_barabus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭


    Question folks, I pass a house daily where the owner has built some very rough mounds of stones encased in concrete right at the edge of the road at either side of their driveway. There are no marking or reflectors on them, their also on the edge of a turn on top of a hill and overgrown with grass. Despite knowing they're there I've nearly hit them several times. Thankfully I've avoided them but a car at the weekend wasn't so lucky and ended up being written off.

    Can the Gardai or Council get the owner to remove them or at least make them safer?

    I did speak to the Gardai who insisted they're nothing to do with them and it's a Council matter. I also know the council have spoken to him but he's done nothing. I also spoke to the person who built them who said he made them dangerous so people wouldn't hit them.

    Just wonder of anyone has come across something like this before.


«1

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    sprucemoose
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    ba_barabus wrote: »
    Question folks, I pass a house daily where the owner has built some very rough mounds of stones encased in concrete right at the edge of the road at either side of their driveway. There are no marking or reflectors on them, their also on the edge of a turn on top of a hill and overgrown with grass. Despite knowing they're there I've nearly hit them several times. Thankfully I've avoided them but a car at the weekend wasn't so lucky and ended up being written off.

    Can the Gardai or Council get the owner to remove them or at least make them safer?

    I did speak to the Gardai who insisted they're nothing to do with them and it's a Council matter. I also know the council have spoken to him but he's done nothing. I also spoke to the person who built them who said he made them dangerous so people wouldn't hit them.

    Just wonder of anyone has come across something like this before.

    sounds like it could be a planning issue potentially


  • Options
    #3
    zg3409
    Registered Users Posts: 6,593 ✭✭✭zg3409


    Photo please


  • Options
    #4
    ba_barabus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    sprucemoose wrote: »
    sounds like it could be a planning issue potentially

    Exactly what the Gardai said and fair enough if it is.

    No photos, I'm not identifying his home.


  • Options
    #5
    sprucemoose
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    ba_barabus wrote: »
    Exactly what the Gardai said and fair enough if it is.

    No photos, I'm not identifying his home.

    ring your local planning dept and talk to them about it is probably the best start. if doesnt have planning then an enforcement against the works might be issued. the owner could go for retention permission for the works but if its as dangerous as you say then it may not be granted


  • Options
    #6
    zg3409
    Registered Users Posts: 6,593 ✭✭✭zg3409


    If it's there over 7 years without a planning complaint then it might be difficult to move. Who owns the land it is on?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    iwillhtfu
    Registered Users Posts: 6,368 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    It's common to see these on houses that have their walls set back from the road but still own the land up to the road side. It's even more common where someone may use this piece of land as a parking area or layby.

    Either way they're doing nothing wrong and it could easily be a wall there in place of the stones. Typically they'll fill bollards or buckets with concrete or something along those lines


  • Options
    #8
    zg3409
    Registered Users Posts: 6,593 ✭✭✭zg3409


    iwillhtfu wrote: »
    It's common to see these on houses that have their walls set back from the road but still own the land up to the road side. It's even more common where someone may use this piece of land as a parking area or layby.

    Either way they're doing nothing wrong and it could easily be a wall there in place of the stones. Typically they'll fill bollards or buckets with concrete or something along those lines

    Often the planning says when for example you build on a conservatory at the rear the catch is that you need to make the narrow road wider. They move the wall back, but try to keep ownership beyond the wall which is public road, or intended to be by planners.


  • Options
    #9
    ba_barabus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    zg3409 wrote: »
    If it's there over 7 years without a planning complaint then it might be difficult to move. Who owns the land it is on?

    Nope, just a few months.
    iwillhtfu wrote: »
    It's common to see these on houses that have their walls set back from the road but still own the land up to the road side. It's even more common where someone may use this piece of land as a parking area or layby.

    Either way they're doing nothing wrong and it could easily be a wall there in place of the stones. Typically they'll fill bollards or buckets with concrete or something along those lines
    I'm pretty certain from my own house buying experience that anything beyond the front wall is for the council to use and maintain as needs. So placing a hazard there isn't acceptable. And placing said hazard touching the road even less so. This isn't s bucket btw, it's a fixed concrete pile of rocks.
    zg3409 wrote: »
    Often the planning says when for example you build on a conservatory at the rear the catch is that you need to make the narrow road wider. They move the wall back, but try to keep ownership beyond the wall which is public road, or intended to be by planners.
    Pretty much, my parents house built in the 70s had this impact them, only took 30 years for the planned for footpath to be built.


  • Options
    #10
    iwillhtfu
    Registered Users Posts: 6,368 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    ba_barabus wrote: »
    I'm pretty certain from my own house buying experience that anything beyond the front wall is for the council to use and maintain as needs. So placing a hazard there isn't acceptable. And placing said hazard touching the road even less so. This isn't s bucket btw, it's a fixed concrete pile of rocks.

    That isn't he case if the council don't own it.

    Report it on https://fixmystreet.ie/ the council are pretty good at reacting to notices on there. If they do nothing with it then it's likely private land.


  • Options
    #11
    ba_barabus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    iwillhtfu wrote: »
    That isn't he case if the council don't own it.

    Report it on https://fixmystreet.ie/ the council are pretty good at reacting to notices on there. If they do nothing with it then it's likely private land.

    If you look at thr land maps to any house they "own" up to the middle of the road. This is a modern house with a wall well back from the road so I'd be surprised if it wasn't subject to the same rules as all others.

    Either way it's not really something we can understand here without info from the owner.

    Thanks for the link however, will submit a report there.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    iwillhtfu
    Registered Users Posts: 6,368 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    ba_barabus wrote: »
    If you look at thr land maps to any house they "own" up to the middle of the road..

    I always thought that was an old wives tale to be honest. You could also look on https://www.landdirect.ie/ to see if the piece of land is attached to the house plot.


  • Options
    #13
    ba_barabus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    iwillhtfu wrote: »
    I always thought that was an old wives tale to be honest. You could also look on https://www.landdirect.ie/ to see if the piece of land is attached to the house plot.

    Not according to our solicitor when we were buying as I thought initially it was a mistake.


  • Options
    #14
    Decoda
    Registered Users Posts: 981 ✭✭✭Decoda


    Contact your county councils road section and ask that your district roads engineer assess the situation and issue a section 70 notice under the roads act. I've seen notices been issued for examples like steel bars set into the road edge or stones / blocks laid along the grass verge to stop vehicles driving on it etc. In most rural cases the land map extends to the centre line of the road and anything within the curtilage of the public road (between the fence lines / walls / boundary ditches) would be covered by a section 70 notice.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1993/act/14/section/70/enacted/en/html


    Dangerous structures, trees, etc.

    70.—(1) (a) The owner or occupier of any structure and the owner or occupier of any land on which a structure is situated shall take all reasonable steps to ensure that the structure or the use of the structure is not a hazard or potential hazard to persons using a public road and that it does not obstruct or interfere with the safe use of a public road or the maintenance of a public road.

    (b) Where a structure or the use of a structure is a hazard or potential hazard to persons using a public road or where it obstructs or interferes with the safe use of a public road or with the maintenance of a public road, a road authority may serve a notice in writing on the owner or occupier of the structure or on the owner or occupier of any land on which the structure is situated to remove, modify or carry out specified works in relation to the structure within the period stated in the notice.


  • Options
    #15
    ba_barabus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    Now you're talking


  • Options
    #16
    kaahooters
    Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭kaahooters


    right, found this,

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-31002499.html


    "So, does a registered owner of a property own the land extending out to the middle of the public road which abuts it, or is it limited to the physical boundary of the property itself?

    While boundaries may, sometimes, appear to reach, on the map attached to a folio, to the middle of the road, it is generally taken that a property owner’s title extends only as far as that property’s own boundary, fence, gate, hedgerow etc, unless a property owner can show evidence to the contrary."

    seems its planning issue.


  • Options
    #17
    Decoda
    Registered Users Posts: 981 ✭✭✭Decoda


    kaahooters wrote: »
    right, found this,

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-31002499.html


    "So, does a registered owner of a property own the land extending out to the middle of the public road which abuts it, or is it limited to the physical boundary of the property itself?

    While boundaries may, sometimes, appear to reach, on the map attached to a folio, to the middle of the road, it is generally taken that a property owner’s title extends only as far as that property’s own boundary, fence, gate, hedgerow etc, unless a property owner can show evidence to the contrary."

    seems its planning issue.

    As I've said above it's a roads issue, I've personally seen numerous Section 70 notices being issued to landowners for a whole range of dangerous objects placed along the road edge, steel bars, concrete posts, barrels, you name it I've seen it removed. Planning or Planning enforcement will not get involved as its within the curtilage of the public road. The Roads section are the only people within the council that will have powers under the Roads Act to remove something that's a road safety concern.

    And yes, if your land registry map shows your boundary is out to the centre line of the road then you own it.....but theres nothing you can do with it as it's the curtilage of the public road......but saying that if the council come along and need to use it for a road scheme they'll have to compensate the landowner for its loss....


  • Options
    #18
    jelutong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭jelutong


    I hope the owner of the written off car gets proper advice on the legality or otherwise of the structures.


  • Options
    #19
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,694 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    kaahooters wrote: »
    right, found this,

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-31002499.html


    "So, does a registered owner of a property own the land extending out to the middle of the public road which abuts it, or is it limited to the physical boundary of the property itself?

    While boundaries may, sometimes, appear to reach, on the map attached to a folio, to the middle of the road, it is generally taken that a property owner’s title extends only as far as that property’s own boundary, fence, gate, hedgerow etc, unless a property owner can show evidence to the contrary."

    seems its planning issue.

    I own the land out to the middle of our road. However it's not a through road and is marked as a private lane. Our neighbors also own the land out that far too.


  • Options
    #20
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,694 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    jelutong wrote: »
    I hope the owner of the written off car gets proper advice on the legality or otherwise of the structures.

    Well they did leave the road at speed. Which presuming was actually nothing to do with the structures more to do with their driving...


  • Options
    #21
    HerrKapitan
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭HerrKapitan


    listermint wrote: »
    Well they did leave the road at speed. Which presuming was actually nothing to do with the structures more to do with their driving...

    And the stone structure may have potentially protected the out of control car from entering the driveway or damaging the wall or anyone in the garden.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    ba_barabus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    listermint wrote: »
    Well they did leave the road at speed. Which presuming was actually nothing to do with the structures more to do with their driving...

    The problem is, this structure is on the left side of a left turn, there is literally no room for any loss of concentration. The others issue is they don't want cars driving on the end of their driveway which I've found out today was put there by the council due to a complaint when they resurfaced the road surface water was entering the driveway.

    I've spoken to someone who deals with these matters, seems they've had multiple complaints and the owner is digging in saying its their land and they'll do what they want on it. Apparently the crash will help move things along. They're waiting on the Garda report


  • Options
    #23
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    you sometimes see a house where they've tarmacced the strip in front of their wall, alongside the road itself , and then placed concrete blocks or even flowerpots, to stop anyone actually driving on it. Bizarre but that's Folk for you , you can't use it, but then neither can they!


  • Options
    #24
    Duckjob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    jelutong wrote: »
    I hope the owner of the written off car gets proper advice on the legality or otherwise of the structures.

    Assuming the structures are not actually protruding into the road itself, then I hope the owner of the car written off learns to adjust their driving speed more to the road conditions he/she sees ahead of him/her on the road.

    Pretty hard to see how your car could be written off by a something actually not on the road if the conditions are as sketchy as the OP described and the driver slowed down appropriately.


  • Options
    #25
    Toyotafanboi
    Registered Users Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    Duckjob wrote: »
    Assuming the structures are not actually protruding into the road itself, then I hope the owner of the car written off learns to adjust their driving speed more to the road conditions he/she sees ahead of him/her on the road.

    Pretty hard to see how your car could be written off by a something actually not on the road if the conditions are as sketchy as the OP described and the driver slowed down appropriately.

    Yeah, those are my thought's. What happened to driving to the conditions and taking responsibility for that?

    The front of my place used to be thick heavy trees and ditch drooping over into the road, made worse by it being over the brow of a blind hill.

    Cleared it all away to clean up the road edge and make is safer pulling out of the house. We left the boundary right to the edge of the hill brow tapering back to around 1500mm over 40 odd meters, all tarred. It just gets used as a pull in and parking area now by the public. Makes it even worse than before for road users and ourselves, even came out one day to find a rigid truck driver taking a lunch break on it.

    Considered doing the auld white stones and flower pots but a bit like this thread, i was nervous that the first fella to crease his car on my flower pot on my ground would be whinging that he wasn't expecting it to be there and i'd somehow be wrong for the whole thing.

    There can be no winning, nobody can accept responsibility for their own actions anymore, it has to be someone elses fault. If you're the one who made the changes, even changes for the better, it seems like it's your baby then.


  • Options
    #26
    jelutong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭jelutong


    I’ve an area of tarmac approximately 40 mtrs x 3mtrs outside my boundary wall.
    Once in the blue moon someone parks there for a few minutes while making a phone call or whatever. It doesn’t bother me in the least. I wouldn’t dream of putting an obstruction on it.


  • Options
    #27
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Do objects adjacent to a road not require reflective/hi Viz markers?


  • Options
    #28
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,694 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    ba_barabus wrote: »
    The problem is, this structure is on the left side of a left turn, there is literally no room for any loss of concentration. The others issue is they don't want cars driving on the end of their driveway which I've found out today was put there by the council due to a complaint when they resurfaced the road surface water was entering the driveway.

    I've spoken to someone who deals with these matters, seems they've had multiple complaints and the owner is digging in saying its their land and they'll do what they want on it. Apparently the crash will help move things along. They're waiting on the Garda report

    Loss of concentration .... Youre driving a two ton plus vehicle you shouldn't be on your phone or looking at your arse. I don't see how this is the home owners fault. Perhaps driving at the speed the road dictates and put the phone in the glovebox would have been a better choice for this particular driver.


  • Options
    #29
    haskellgeek
    Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭haskellgeek


    Leaving aside the car crash case, that's a huge liability for the owners they should have insurance on that land and I'd wonder what the insurer would think of it!


  • Options
    #30
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,694 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    haskellgeek wrote: »
    Leaving aside the car crash case, that's a huge liability for the owners they should have insurance on that land and I'd wonder what the insurer would think of it!

    Interesting point but the same liability would ensue with people parking on it. Only solution is to fence it all off right up to the road then... And I'm sure the cc wouldn't allow that either. So ?..


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    haskellgeek
    Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭haskellgeek


    listermint wrote: »
    Interesting point but the same liability would ensue with people parking on it. Only solution is to fence it all off right up to the road then... And I'm sure the cc wouldn't allow that either. So ?..

    Still if its private property its your responsibility for liability if someone was to injure themselves on it, which is possiblly off topic but if someone was to accidently crash into there structures it would be an interesting one.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement