Great Grandfather on 1911 - not on 1901 ??

jos28 · 09-06-2012 12:23am #1

This is my Great Grandfather, Michael Evans on the 1911 census (age 31). It clearly states he was born in Co. Dublin not Dublin city. I can only find 5 Michael Evans on 1901 but I don't think any of them are him. Any advice would be much appreciated.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1901&surname=evans&firstname=michael&county=Dublin&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&search=Search&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&birthplace=&language=&deafdumb=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=

Victor · 09-06-2012 2:16am

jos28 wrote: »

It clearly states he was born in Co. Dublin not Dublin city.

The city is part of the county.

Take age with a grain of salt - add or take away 5-10 years.

dubhthach · 09-06-2012 8:31am

Moved thread to Genealogy as per original poster request -Mod

shanew · 09-06-2012 10:03am

not always consistent - but on the census returns 'Co. Dublin' usually refers to the area outside the city, whereas 'Dublin' can mean either.

1911 return for reference : Evans household, Tolka Cottages

Your Michael is about 10 years married in 1911...do you have a marriage cert for him ?
Father's name and occupation could help the search..

p.s. most of Drumcondra would have been outside the city at that stage..

Shane

shanew · 09-06-2012 10:25am

I haven't located a likely marriage yet.. but there's a good match to the birth of the youngest son Christopher age 4 months on the 1911 return.

Name: Christopher Evans
Registration district: Dublin North
Event type: Birth
Quarter and year: Oct - Dec 1910
volume: 2 / page: 522

A birth cert would give you Annie's maiden name to help with a marriage search.

Shane

Victor · 09-06-2012 1:28pm

shanew wrote: »

p.s. most of Drumcondra would have been outside the city at that stage.

Drumcondra was a separate town from about 1878-1900.

jos28 · 09-06-2012 2:29pm

I think what has thrown me is the fact that he wrote Co. Dublin for himself and City of Dublin for the rest of the family. Why make that distinction ? I agree that I need to find the marriage cert to go any further or birth cert for one of the children as you suggest Shane. I'm off to root through my mother's papers because I think my Grandads (Thomas b1903) birth cert is up there somewhere.

shanew · 09-06-2012 3:29pm

given their location on the 1911 census, I wouldn't worry about the City/County distinction too much at this stage - they are right on the boundary at that time.

Drumcondra was amalgamated into Dublin City a little earlier than I thought - 1900 by Act of Parliament. The children are listed as born Dublin City, and the youngest is registered in Dublin North district which covered north city from the Liffey out to Howth, Baldoyle, Santry, Artane, Finglas, Glasnevin and in as far as Blanchardstown, Castleknock & Chapelizod. North of this was the district of Balrothery.

Shane

jos28 · 10-06-2012 5:21pm

Could find the birth cert but rang my aunt who claims that Annie's maiden name was Fitzpatrick. She was also known as Hannah. They were apparently married the year before Christopher was born making it 1901.

shanew · 10-06-2012 5:48pm

there's a possible cross match on the BMD Index... right district, but a little later than 1901, but close enough that it's worth following up. Fitzpatrick is a common surname, but Evans far less so...

Name: Hannah Fitzpatrick
Registration district: Dublin North
Event type: Marriage
Quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1902
Volume: 2 / Page: 495

A Michael Evans appears with the same references.

I think it may be worth getting a birth cert for one of the children also - just to be certain about the maiden surname. Sometimes the details passed down in family stories can be out of step - i.e. right details, but wrong generation..

Shane

jos28 · 10-06-2012 6:26pm

Thanks a million Shane for all your help. I will have another search for a birth cert and if I don't find it I will head into town during the week and get a copy.
Thanks again

dido2 · 10-06-2012 8:40pm

I would think the marriage ref is a fairly good match, theres also a birth record for a Michael Evans for 1902 but it's Jan to Mar 1902 and Rathdown so if both records are right you've more than likely stumbled on to a birth out of wedlock!!!

Name: Michael Evans
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1902
Registration district: Rathdown
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 2
Page: 825

Or theres this Birth for just Evans in 1903
Name: Evans
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1903
Registration district: Dublin North
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 2
Page: 486

The only Thomas Evans is for 1906

Name: Thomas Evans
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1906
Registration district: Dublin North
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 2
Page: 519

Mary Evans 1910

Name: Mary Evans
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1910
Registration district: Dublin North
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 2
Page: 530

Name: Mary Eveline Evans
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1909
Registration district: Dublin North
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 2
Page: 429

Christopher Evans

Name: Christopher Evans
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1910
Registration district: Dublin North
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 2
Page: 522

jos28 · 12-06-2012 8:06pm

I found a copy of their marriage cert but still cannot find Michael on the 1901 census

If anyone could throw any light on this it would be much appreciated

shanew · 12-06-2012 8:47pm

is his father's name James ?

pity there's no occupations for the fathers that could have helped. Suspect that both fathers may be deceased...

Shane

dido2 · 12-06-2012 9:27pm

It could just mean that it hasn't made it's way on to the computer! I know there are some people in my family that should be on the 1901 census but just aren't... I'd imagine if you went to view an actual copy of it might be intact?

Shenew

So far with all of my marriage certs the fathers either have dead next to their names, dead between their names if both of them are dead, or nothing if they are alive

shanew · 12-06-2012 9:57pm

I've found a number of marriage certs (Irish & English) where the father was deceased and it was not noted on the cert - I dont think the status is certain, unless deceased is specifically noted. Of these certs where the father turned out to be deceased many didn't include father's occupation.

RC church records, particularly in the city e.g. Pro-Cathedral, seem more dependable with the status of the parents.

re the census - there are definitely a few streets & townlands missing from the online data - for various reasons. Some forms have been damaged or lost, forms for some streets were never filmed so were not available to be digitized, and it's also possible that Michael or his family managed to miss being enumerated or were outside Dublin, or even outside Ireland at the time..

Shane

dido2 · 12-06-2012 10:19pm

Ah well there goes my theory of if it doesn't say dead on the marriage cert then they aren't dead!

P. Breathnach · 13-06-2012 2:03pm

Out of curiosity, I tried to see if I could trace the Fitzpatrick connection in 1901: zilch.

What looks to be her family are in Tolka Cottages in 1911: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Drumcondra/Tolka_Cottages/28298/. They are in a different house from the Evans family.

Browsing 1901 by location, I can't find Tolka Cottages. I lean towards the view that the 1901 census data is missing, at least from the digitised records.

dubhthach · 13-06-2012 2:26pm

Can anyone verify where "Tolka Cottages" are? I could find "Tolka Cottages" in Glasnevin. When I look at the 25" map on the OSI map it isn't there. According to data that section of map was surveyed in 1907. Question is though is the actual "Tolka Cottages" that's mentioned in 1911 census?

dubhthach · 13-06-2012 2:34pm

hah -- the power of google, looks like I found them check out OSI map and switch to 25" overlay (while zoomed in)
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,716116,736660,7,9

They no longer exist.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Botanic+Road,+Glasnevin,+Dublin+9,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=53.367474,-6.255453&spn=0.001024,0.005413&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=48.77566,88.681641&oq=botanic+road&t=h&hq=Botanic+Road,&hnear=Glasnevin,+County+Dublin,+Ireland&fll=53.367465,-6.255351&fspn=0.00226,0.005413&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.367475,-6.255453&panoid=4wojhL10A0yl4_ctYDCDjA&cbp=12,343.11,,0,-0.89

Photo here:
http://www.dublin.ie/forums/showthread.php?14956-Tolka-Cottages&p=847443&viewfull=1#post847443

shanew · 13-06-2012 2:37pm

I've a suspicion I looked into Tolka cottages before and found that they may not have been built until after the 1901 census.... will check that out.

S.

P. Breathnach · 13-06-2012 3:00pm

What year is the 25" OSI map for the area? They are shown on it. There are also buildings shown there in the earlier 6" map, albeit not named as Tolka Cottages.

There is a mention of the Evans family in dubhthach's link to a picture of the cottages.

I gather that the name Tolka Cottages might have had a special meaning: not merely that they were beside the Tolka, but they were often in it. That's why they were demolished and nothing built in their place. A rare case of clearing buildings off a flood plain.

jos28 · 13-06-2012 3:02pm

I've really opened a can of worms here

Thank you all for your contributions. I could not find the Evans or Fitzpatrick families on 1901. I though I was losing me marbles, I even tried using a different browser ! It would appear that Tolka Cottages are not on the system which would explain a lot. I'm going to email the NAI just to clarify and will let you know the outcome. Looking at Dubhthach's map, the cottages are where my family told me they were, which is near where the old Lemons sweet factory was. My Mam was born there in 1927 and left to move to Whitehall when she was about 10-12 years old. I always got the impression that the cottages were old,damp and very prone to flooding.

dubhthach · 13-06-2012 3:13pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What year is the 25" OSI map for the area? They are shown on it. There are also buildings shown there in the earlier 6" map, albeit not named as Tolka Cottages.

There is a mention of the Evans family in dubhthach's link to a picture of the cottages.

I gather that the name Tolka Cottages might have had a special meaning: not merely that they were beside the Tolka, but they were often in it. That's why they were demolished and nothing built in their place. A rare case of clearing buildings off a flood plain.

In this case it was surveyed in 1907. The trick to find that out is to do following:

Click Buy Map
Select "Historic 25" map"
Select: "A0 Sheet with Borders"

Here's a screenshot

P. Breathnach · 13-06-2012 3:20pm

dubhthach wrote: »

In this case it was surveyed in 1907. The trick to find that out is to do following:
Click Buy Map

Select "Historic 25" map"

Select: "A0 Sheet with Borders"

Thank you. That's very useful. [I'll be gone for a while: there's stuff in West Kerry that I want to check.]

Victor · 17-06-2012 1:56am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What year is the 25" OSI map for the area? They are shown on it. There are also buildings shown there in the earlier 6" map, albeit not named as Tolka Cottages.

There is a mention of the Evans family in dubhthach's link to a picture of the cottages.

I gather that the name Tolka Cottages might have had a special meaning: not merely that they were beside the Tolka, but they were often in it. That's why they were demolished and nothing built in their place. A rare case of clearing buildings off a flood plain.

The cottages are shown without any gardens, so I suspect they were truly modest properties.

jos28 · 17-06-2012 2:28pm

Well and truly modest according to my late Mam, Victor ! For anyone interested in the area here is a book well worth reading
http://www.amazon.com/Drumcondra-Its-Environs-Louis-OFlaherty/dp/0956411002

jos28 · 17-06-2012 3:09pm

Found this photo on dublin.ie

jos28 · 21-06-2012 9:57pm

Still waiting on a reply from NAI about the 1901 census. In the meantime, I found some info that might be of help to anyone researching Tolka cottages and surrounding areas. The church records for the area are held at Church of the Visitation, Fairview
http://www.catholicireland.net/mass-times?task=churchbyparish&ParishID=112
Records here start in 1879, prior to that Drumcondra was part of Clontarf parish and records are held at
http://www.stjohnsclontarf.dublindiocese.ie/

Great Grandfather on 1911 - not on 1901 ??

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