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Apparently unconnected people in the same grave

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  • 24-10-2010 2:08am
    #1
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭


    Herself was checking on a burial in Glasnevin to see if she could broaden her knowledge of what happened to the family of one ancestor.

    She thinks she has identified the right grave (name not too uncommon, but age and d.o.d. fit very well). When she checked on who else was buried there, she found there were three other interments, none of which seem to have any connection with the family. The earliest burial was in 1899, and the latest in 1931.

    The ancestor was not wealthy, and might have been impoverished (widow, living in a flat in the Iveagh Trust). So one possibility is that it is a pauper's grave.

    Are there other reasonable explanations?


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    #2
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    It's very common for commercial cemeteries to re-sell graves - especially if there's no family member maintaining it. A pauper's grave wouldn't have a headstone or any marker and there'd be a lot of people in it.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #3
    Alicat
    Registered Users Posts: 10,264 ✭✭✭✭Alicat


    I've had similar with my relatives in Glasnevin, but I'm sure it's the same all over. As harsh as it may sound, no point in wasting space!


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    #4
    strongbluebell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 189 ✭✭strongbluebell


    I had the same issue in Glasnevin. I asked in the visitor centre about it and they told me what's already been said. They were paupers graves.

    I've seen a married couple who died within a year of each other buried separately with strangers in different areas of the cemetery.


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    #5
    lottpaul
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭lottpaul


    The other halfs family are from West Kerry and it was common there in the past for "paupers" - hate that term - to be buried in "American" graves - i.e. graves belonging to families who had emigrated en masse, and presumably in those days there was no prospect of bodies coming home for burial. There was often no relationship at all between these families and I'm not certain if anyone ever consulted them - I somehow doubt it.
    I know of definite cases into the 1930s. I'm sure the same thing was done all over the country, especially where emigration was rife.
    May not have been the case in Dublin, but you never know.


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    #6
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    lottpaul wrote: »
    The other halfs family are from West Kerry and it was common there in the past for "paupers" - hate that term - to be buried in "American" graves - i.e. graves belonging to families who had emigrated en masse, and presumably in those days there was no prospect of bodies coming home for burial. There was often no relationship at all between these families and I'm not certain if anyone ever consulted them - I somehow doubt it.
    I know of definite cases into the 1930s. I'm sure the same thing was done all over the country, especially where emigration was rife.
    May not have been the case in Dublin, but you never know.

    That is really interesting, and a big surprise to me -- and I have West Kerry roots. Kinship patterns are very strong back there, and even when a whole family departed, I would have thought that there probably would have been second or even third cousins who knew where the graves were and who was in them, and who would have thought it incumbent on them to protect the family interest.

    I have long thought that the strong passions that Irish people feel about the ownership of land are intensified when a piece of land as small as a grave is involved.


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    #7
    lottpaul
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭lottpaul


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    That is really interesting, and a big surprise to me -- and I have West Kerry roots. Kinship patterns are very strong back there, and even when a whole family departed, I would have thought that there probably would have been second or even third cousins who knew where the graves were and who was in them, and who would have thought it incumbent on them to protect the family interest.

    Was a surprise to me too but I spoke to one old man whose mother had died when he was a child and she and her mother - who died the following year - were buried in such a grave. In fact he had only found the grave many years later as there were no official records at the time - pre the 1937 Act I presume. The "tomb"/grave that had been used had last been opened over 30 years before and there didn't appear to be any local relatives, although there was a headstone for the single occupant and the family was remembered in the area. I asked him why his mother hadn't been buried in a new grave, to be followed in due course by her husband etc. He replied that as his father was still a young man it had been expected that he would remarry and be buried with his new wife. This was quite a common practice apparently and consequently many women who died in childbirth etc were buried with their own families, often with grandparents or much older relatives, in very old and often unmarked graves.


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    #8
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Grave ownership is covered by law and property law will apply.

    Normally,family graves have a deed holder who effectively owns the grave and there normally can only be one registered owner. Graves are sometimes held in a form of lease.

    The owner is the person who gives permission.

    You can imagine a situation where - a distant relative was buried in a grave who with whom there are close kinship ties or indeed the child of a subsequent marriage or first marriage.

    Glasnevin was set up after the penal laws were repealed. 1830 or thereabouts so the rules at that time would apply.

    I had a granduncle who was Catholic buried in a protestant cemetary dating from 1775 and the grave had been "owned" by protestant relatives.




    GRAVE SPACES

    1. Upon payment of the purchase money for a grave the purchaser shall be given a receipt in proper form for the amount of same and a lease in proper form shall be issued which shall state particulars as to the plot purchased by number and letter to correspond with the entry in the Ground Plan, The Order for Internment Form, The Burial Register, The Death Register and with corresponding entries in any computerised recording system which may be used by the Council.
    2. One person (or that person’s legal representative) shall be registered as proprietor of the grave space or spaces purchased and under no circumstances will the Council recognise joint ownership.
    3. The Exclusive Right of Burial is granted in perpetuity and entitles the deed holder to determine who is buried in the grave, and subject to the consent of the Council, whether a memorial can be erected on the grave. The grave shall be considered the personal estate of the purchaser and may be assigned in his / her lifetime. Any such assignment must be duly registered with the Council within two months of the assignment being made, or otherwise it shall have no effect.

      Particulars of such assignment or transfer of title to grave spaces shall be entered in the Death Register as provided for in Bye Law Number 12 of these Bye Laws. An administration fee of €60 or such sum as may be decided from time to time, shall be charged for the entry of such assignment.
    4. No body shall be buried in any grave space already purchased except with the consent of the owner of such grave space, and such consent must be in writing if required by the Council or a duly Authorised Officer of the Council, subject to the Rules of the Local Government Board of Ireland, 1888, Regulation VI (one body in grave at time ex Family) and Regulation VII (reburials – 14 year period) and in accordance with the Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=68697320

    Glasnevin link with geneology

    http://www.glasnevintrust.ie/index.cfm/fuseaction/faq.content/id/010EEB08-404E-4E9B-BBF939541D52FCC2


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