The Crooked Blue Line

pure.conya wrote: »

however shocking, i don't know if you realise this or not but this happened in another country

That's true, but let's not kid ourselves that we don't have significant issues within our own police force as well as we've seen time and again over the years - even in recent times we've had the McCabe saga, breathalyser scandal, evidence disappearing from Garda stations, guys getting into accidents because they were driving cars they weren't qualified to, the involvement in the water charges protests (more of a FG issue to be fair as AGS were used as private security), how Gardai found out can usually just retire early with no real penalty and their pension... and so on.

The new chief in fairness seems to be taking a harder line on a lot of this stuff to his credit, but there's a long way to go yet.

bubblypop wrote: »

You really need to get your facts right.

Really? How so? Did we not have a penalty points/breathalyser scandal? Was Maurice McCabe not seen as a "rat" and ostracised by his supposed colleagues? Have we not seen Gardai found guilty of wrong doing allowed to retire early rather than face charges? Have we not seen accidents where Gardai were found to be driving on "chief's permission" because they hadn't done the necessary tests?

I stand to be corrected, but aren't you a member yourself? (although even that term smacks of some sort of club house mentality). Might that be colouring your view?

bubblypop wrote: »

You really need to get your facts right.

I'd love to state my facts - but I can't yet.

They are truly unbelievable, yet totally true. Even the solicitors representing me did not believe such incompetence could happen until they saw the evidence.

Funny, one decent garda said that this station has a "reputation".

OK, let's give examples...

bubblypop wrote: »

Maurice McCabe was not ostracised by his actual (dont know why you think they are 'supposed') colleagues. He said himself he got great support from his colleagues.

https://www.thejournal.ie/maurice-mccabe-called-a-rat-tribunal-3509099-Jul2017/

GARDA WHISTLEBLOWER SERGEANT Maurice McCabe was the subject of “hostility and enmity” within the gardaí, the Charleton tribunal has heard.

McCabe’s barrister Michael McDowell said that while evidence had been given that garda witnesses never discussed McCabe, he was the subject of “a good deal of hostility and enmity from certain sources in the Cavan-Monaghan division”.

The tribunal was also told McCabe was bullied, and called a “rat” on social media, McDowell said.

"Supposed" colleagues (as that seems to have thrown you off) refers to the behaviour of people who he'd have worked closely with, were probably friends, and certainly not what you'd expect to happen in any situation - but especially not from within AGS

bubblypop wrote:

gardai may resign from their job, same as anyone. They are not entitled to a pension if they have not completed their service.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/suspended-garda-officer-set-to-retire-in-coming-months-1.3748088

The vast majority of investigations conducted by Gsoc into members of the force must cease if the Garda member under investigation resigns or retires

Handy that!

bubblypop wrote:

Gardai do indeed drive on Chiefs Permission, hardly anything to do with corruption, it is clearly a lack of training. Nothing to do with corruption.

Incompetence and dangerous would be a better descriptor given there has been at least one fatality involved as I recall.

bubblypop wrote:

there was indeed tickets being cancelled for friends by management, which was investigated fully I believe.

https://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/hundreds-of-gardai-abused-driving-penalty-point-system-as-fines-and-points-wiped-36370346.html

Seems to have been a lot more extensive than "management" now to be fair!

The watchdog warned that superintendents and inspectors wiped points and fines for driving offences outside their geographical area, contrary to policy.

Almost three quarters of the records of notices being cancelled did not carry any sufficient rationale for the action.

Some 442 officers were authorised to wipe fixed charge notices in the four years from 2009 to 2012, the report found.

The Garda Ombudsman also found that some serving gardai used the credentials of retired senior colleagues, who would have had the authority to cancel the penalties, in order to wipe the slate clean for friends and relatives.

Here's another one I referenced above:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/money-seized-as-evidence-by-garda%C3%AD-goes-missing-14-times-in-three-years-1.3686113

Money taken into evidence by gardaí went missing from stations on more than a dozen occasions over a three-year period.*

Between January 1st, 2015, and December 31st, 2017, 14 sums of money confiscated by gardaí as part of investigations disappeared from the evidence storage facilities of stations around the country.

How does money just "disappear" from I assume secure lockups in Garda stations?

bubblypop wrote:

I agree there maybe incompetence, all in all, AGS are not a corrupt organisation.

Hmmm....

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The new chief in fairness seems to be taking a harder line on a lot of this stuff to his credit, but there's a long way to go yet.

My view is that there is a very deliberate reason why a former deputy head of the PSNI got the top job here - to give the joint a clean out from the top down.

A proper hard nut prepared to take the hard line without fear nor favour.

The scandals over the past few years seem to come at them hard and fast, not all are bad but the seemingly inability to show transparent changes as a results of some of the scandals is dogging them.

There is also a bit of a culture shock as they are going from an organization that may have liked the respect it has gotten in past and have grown entitled to it to one that is not looked upon favorably.

I would love a replay of the little pay stunt they did a few years back, id say the government would have support to tell them to get their house in order before they be given anything.

While the whole force is not corrupt, the nature in which they circle the wagons and shelter their own is bad as they essentially work for themselves and not the state.

Example of the entitled behavior: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/solicitor-whose-home-was-raided-in-catastrophic-mistake-settles-court-action-1.4095775

Matt Barrett wrote: »

IMO Garda deserve respect because of the work they do. They are human. I think a big problem, like with the legal and medical professions was people within and without putting them up on some kind of higher moral level simply based on their job. As with the aforementioned you will have blagards take advantage of that trust and place in society.
We should never judge someone positively or negatively simply based on their job.

There is a big difference between respecting the individual versus the organization. I know a couple of serving members through family who are decent folk but it doesn't mean i won't critique the organization on a whole.

The problem with pointing out that its only a small number of individuals and not all Guards is that until they have a transparent and culture of accountability then its very very hard to trust how corrupt the organization is.

Also on the whole moral front they are afforded certain privilege to do their job that ordinary citizens do not, so yes they must be above reproach when going about their job. A cute hoor in the force should not be tolerated, thats how we get the likes of the credit union fiasco in Templemore.

Calhoun wrote: »

You a serving corrupt member yourself?

That's a bit far now in fairness, but as I said above, they are a member alright as far as I recall (although that point was ignored in the initial response), so it's only natural to defend one's job and colleagues to an extent if so.

However, regardless of that, asking things like what happened to McCabe, claiming that money going missing from evidence was from "years gone by" when it happened as recently as 2 years ago from the article I referenced, ignoring the point that Gardai were using credentials of retired senior colleagues to cancel penalty points (doesn't say much for their IT security either) but claiming it was "management" alone, and other such statements in the posts above don't add much to the defence of AGS.

No one has said that every individual Garda is corrupt, lazy or incompetent, but there are enough that fit that bill (as we've seen time and again) to undermine the force as a whole and discredit the good work that is done.

The rot seems to extend from rank and file to the senior management team, so it's a very good thing that the latest commissioner (unlike his recent predecessors) is an outsider who seems to be taking a zero tolerance approach to this stuff.

At a time when trust and credibility in the force has been badly hit in the eyes of the public, you'd think any decent Garda who takes their job and the responsibility it comes with seriously would welcome such reforms and do everything they can to support and cooperate with them - not attempt to play down the problems we all know exist.

I hope he (Harris) succeeds because the only other alternative is to completely dismantle and rebuild the force from the ground up RUC/PSNI style. The secretive "us vs them" Garda clubhouse mentality has no place in a modern accountable police force, which is what this country badly needs.

bubblypop wrote: »

Yes it is a bit much, which is why I ignored it.
I am most certainly not corrupt & neither is anyone I know in the job.
I would be the first to report corruption.
But I am also fair & just, & I state the truth.

Everyone, particularly Gardai want to have a professional force, unfortunately what is happening at the moment with the changes the new commissioner is making, that won't happen. But that is for another thread.
AGS is not a corrupt organisation. I would advise anyone who believes it is to never travel overseas!
Yep, there are some bad, lazy, incompetent members as there is in any organisation, but it is far far from a corrupt organisation.

Firstly, and genuinely, fair play to you for this response - a lot more transparent and open than some of your replies above.

Your personal attitude to the job is commendable given the very real and serious impact it has on our society and individuals therein. It absolutely needs to be taken seriously and approached properly.

I'm curious why you think Harris won't succeed though. So far he seems to be instituting changes to do away with the "be grand" approaches so common in Ireland generally, and he certainly seems tougher on wrong doing than either of his 2 most recent predecessors.

Unless you mean that his approach is splitting the force(?) but that to me is part of the problem if so - the clubhouse policing I keep referring to has to end and if some don't like the changes needed to do that, well that's just tough really.

What police forces elsewhere do or don't do is irrelevant to be honest. Here in Ireland we have significant issues within our own as anyone who follows the news can plainly see and that's what we need to fix - so that individuals like yourself can get on with the job without fear or favour holding you back.

bubblypop wrote: »

Yes it is a bit much, which is why I ignored it.
I am most certainly not corrupt & neither is anyone I know in the job.
I would be the first to report corruption.
But I am also fair & just, & I state the truth.

Everyone, particularly Gardai want to have a professional force, unfortunately what is happening at the moment with the changes the new commissioner is making, that won't happen. But that is for another thread.
AGS is not a corrupt organisation. I would advise anyone who believes it is to never travel overseas!
Yep, there are some bad, lazy, incompetent members as there is in any organisation, but it is far far from a corrupt organisation.

You are probably not corrupt but did you push for a wage increase around Christmas 2016? This would be around the time you boys were cooking the books regarding breath test and the road numbers?

You also seem to either not lived in Ireland for the past couple of years or ignorant to the public concerns to current affairs. Your then coming at it from the perspective of you know better because your a serving member wink wink and that there is an answer for everything.

You don't agree there is corruption in the force but then again, if anything on this thread you seem to see no evil and hear no evil.

bubblypop wrote: »

There are, of course some bad members, of course there are. There are lazy incompetent ones also.
But as a whole, the organisation is not corrupt. Does not always work the best way it should but definitely not corrupt.
& of course members feel aggrieved when we are all painted as corrupt, as would anyone.

I'd be fully agreeable that as a whole it is not corrupt and its a few members that give it a bad rep.

However, why do a huge number of colleagues suddenly back their colleagues when it is BLATANTLY obvious that they did wrong, BLATANTLY obvious that they caused harm, BLATANTLY obvious that they did not follow any proper procedure.

And why can't a garda utter the extremely simple phrase "I AM SORRY"

THAT'S what wrong with the garda force in general.

wassie wrote: »

My view is that there is a very deliberate reason why a former deputy head of the PSNI got the top job here - to give the joint a clean out from the top down.

A proper hard nut prepared to take the hard line without fear nor favour.

What also happened is that the UK paid a fortune to clear out hundreds of RUC members who either didnt want to slide across to the new PSNI or were considered too "old school" to be accepted into the new force. They got a handsome package ( something of the order of a couple of years wages, taxfree and half pension to those who qualified) to leave and many did, to the point where it caused a serious skill drain that took some time to make up. Harris also cleared out individuals who were seen as too close to Unionist politics and Loyalism in particular.

The reduction of police numbers on the beat or on patrol in local communities is not just confined to Gardai, so to blame Harris for this is to miss the point. It is a common complaint all across the UK police forces. The difference between the Gardai, the UK police forces and the European forces is that European forces are often divided into local and national police, such as in France, whereby local crime is the job of local police, the Police Nationale and more serious stuff is dealt with by the Gendarme (who, incidentally, come under the Minister for Defence). In fairness to the Gardai, they have put a lot of emphasis on community policing in recent years but the old days of Gardai on the beat, outside Dublin, are essentially gone.

RobbieMD wrote: »

I’ve personally always found debates are better if there are two sides debating. Otherwise its not a debate at all.

And I love the way it’s called the crooked blue line and the op is about prison officers in America.

Can I post about electricians being corrupt because I once had a dodgy roofer? Are they the same cult seeing as they’re both in the building game?

My point is that if your going to debate, you debate on what is public record. Implying that you are working for an organization that the debate is and you know more because of it but don't go into the details is not really debating. Nor did the poster really try to engage in any debating.

My comment on being apart of an organization is working in the corporate world, maybe the public sector encourages its staff to get involved in online debates but that doesn't happen in the private sector as the damage it can do is much greater than the good.

If you have a problem with the thread take it up with the mods.