Ring your bell for pedestrians?

magicbastarder · 03-12-2020 12:16pm

am curious by what people mean by 'shouting'; i assume you mean you call out a hello or a good morning?

breezy1985 · 03-12-2020 12:20pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

am curious by what people mean by 'shouting'; i assume you mean you call out a hello or a good morning?

I mean a loud call. Nothing aggressive

Tombo2001 · 03-12-2020 12:20pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

"Racer brigade" :rolleyes:

not to be confused with the 'Hybrid' brigade and the 'Mountain Bike' brigade.

A bike is a bike lads.

breezy1985 · 03-12-2020 12:22pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

not to be confused with the 'Hybrid' brigade and the 'Mountain Bike' brigade.

A bike is a bike lads.

Just wait till Ireland starts to experience the "Brompton brigade" or the unicyclist commuter I used have to deal with in London

eeeee · 03-12-2020 12:25pm

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed, the racer brigade on their commute to work :rolleyes:

We're a brigade now? When do I get my uniform?

Don't have a bell. I've been on a Dublin bike with one and using it was antagonistic. I don't use shared use cycle lanes/ paths cos they're usually just footpads with a line/ red dressing on them. They're really shyte for entrances, usual bad design etc.
If I have reason to alert people to my presence, it's usually because someone's stepped out onto the road ahead of me, or a runner is running in the cycle lane I'm in :mad: I freewheel either if I'm on a geared bike.

Pkiernan · 03-12-2020 12:27pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I mean a loud call. Nothing aggressive

Outta da bleeding way ya dozy bollix....

(Line from The Snapper before I get infracted!)

magicbastarder · 03-12-2020 12:28pm

eeeee wrote: »

If I have reason to alert people to my presence, it's usually because someone's stepped out onto the road ahead of me, or a runner is running in the cycle lane I'm in :mad: I freewheel either if I'm on a geared bike.

pretty similar here. the main exception would be when i'm on the fairview to sutton path, but generally if i have to deal with people it's on country roads and it's easiest to just slow down and call out a friendly greeting. a bell would actually be weird in those circumstances, i reckon.

Pkiernan · 03-12-2020 12:30pm

I go given out to in Germany for not ringing my bell on forest ride.

My Irish guilt complex thought I'd be annoying them.

When i ring it here, I always say hello too.

03-12-2020 12:32pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

"Racer brigade" :rolleyes:

Well folk not having a bell as they reckon "all bicycles used in a public place must be fitted with a bell, although there is an exemption for bikes made or adapted specially for racing" is meant in spirit to include folk commuting etc are just acting the pr1ck really.

Stopped in traffic lights on the quays in Dublin on a racer .......... oh I don't need a bell............ it's a racer. lol

breezy1985 · 03-12-2020 12:32pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

Outta da bleeding way ya dozy bollix....

(Line from The Snapper before I get infracted!)

Watched it recently and have forgotten one of the kids was obsessed with bikes like so many Roche and Kelly obsessed Irish kids in the early 90s

03-12-2020 12:34pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

not to be confused with the 'Hybrid' brigade and the 'Mountain Bike' brigade.

A bike is a bike lads.

I was referring to the lads on them rather than the style of bike

partyguinness · 03-12-2020 12:34pm

You gotta love the dog walkers especially the ones that have a dog on one of those long leashes that recoil.

Or another beaut I saw recently: dog walker in the middle of the narrow busy path (only wide enough for 2-3 people) with two dogs and a lease in each hand. Both dogs a good 15-20 feet away still attached to their leashes and on each side of the path snififng the grass.

So now the walker looks like she is controlling a sleigh with huskies. Other users are faced with a barly visbile leash across the entire path at a height of about 2 foot. So now it is impossible to get past without having to jump the leash. Said walker can barely control the dogs and they are pulling her along let alone react to pull back the dogs.

magicbastarder · 03-12-2020 12:35pm

do i recall that air horns are explicitly forbidden for cyclists to use?

eeeee · 03-12-2020 12:35pm

Augeo wrote: »

Well folk not having a bell as they reckon "all bicycles used in a public place must be fitted with a bell, although there is an exemption for bikes made or adapted specially for racing" is meant in spirit to include folk commuting etc are just acting the pr1ck really.

Except they're not. I can race on all my bikes.
My commuter is a former race bike.
All of my bikes were specially made and adapted for racing.

I don't cycle on footpaths or shared use cycle lanes so barring someone stepping/ jumping/ running out onto the road/ running on the road or cycle path I'm in, and a bell isn't gonna cut it in those situations.

RobertFoster · 03-12-2020 12:37pm

eeeee wrote: »

We're a brigade now? When do I get my uniform?

As a militant cyclist already I hope I can use the same uniform.

breezy1985 · 03-12-2020 12:43pm

eeeee wrote: »

Except they're not. I can race on all my bikes.
My commuter is a former race bike.
All of my bikes were specially made and adapted for racing.

I don't cycle on footpaths or shared use cycle lanes so barring someone stepping/ jumping/ running out onto the road/ running on the road or cycle path I'm in, and a bell isn't gonna cut it in those situations.

Ooohh "all my bikes" look at you fancy : )

03-12-2020 12:45pm

eeeee wrote: »

Except they're not. I can race on all my bikes. ............

But when you are not racing a bell is a bad idea?
Like FFS, the exemption is an ancient ole rule.......... it's obvious folk commuting etc should have a bell as they are not "racing"

breezy1985 · 03-12-2020 12:45pm

RobertFoster wrote: »

As a militant cyclist already I hope I can use the same uniform.

armee-de-terre-cyclisme-cyclisme_b166054608ffcda94c651dd36b98ac51.jpg?itok=Fn2bPW1P

ED E · 03-12-2020 12:48pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

do i recall that air horns are explicitly forbidden for cyclists to use?

Bell and only a bell, but I imagine as many Gardai know that as know that parking on a verge is illegal.

TomTomTim · 03-12-2020 12:48pm

A set of loud carbon wheels usually negates the need for a bell.

eeeee · 03-12-2020 12:49pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ooohh "all my bikes" look at you fancy : )

:cool:

Augeo wrote: »

But when you are not racing a bell is a bad idea?
Like FFS, the exemption is an ancient ole rule.......... it's obvious folk commuting etc should have a bell as they are not "racing"

Except it's not...and it's equally obvious that the having a bell on ones' bike is an ancient old rule, like the reflector on the bottom of the mudguard etc...

Also:

eeeee wrote: »

Except they're not. I can race on all my bikes.
My commuter is a former race bike.
All of my bikes were specially made and adapted for racing.

I don't cycle on footpaths or shared use cycle lanes so barring someone stepping/ jumping/ running out onto the road/ running on the road or cycle path I'm in, and a bell isn't gonna cut it in those situations.

hmmm · 03-12-2020 12:49pm

A bell is helpful if it's to make you aware that someone is coming up behind you, preferably with a friendly wave as they pass. Where it tends to get peoples backs up is when it's used as a way to say "get out of my way" through repeated ringing.

I know that's what they do in parts of the continent, however that's not what we are used to here.

partyguinness · 03-12-2020 12:53pm

Ring the bell and then apologise profusely as you ride past.

John Hutton · 03-12-2020 12:53pm

I dont use my bell as I have experience that pedestrians seem to think of it as a portent of impending doom, that they are about to be run down, so they freeze or move unpredictably making things more dangerous.

Charles Babbage · 03-12-2020 12:54pm

Lux23 wrote: »

It's really weird because in countries where cycling is more commonplace, they always ring their bell but here cyclists won't even do it on a footpath. It is odd, but I feel sort of rude doing it myself as well even though its better than screaming or plowing into someone.

The solution here is for cyclists not to be on footpaths.

Macy0161 · 03-12-2020 12:55pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The solution here is for cyclists not to be on footpaths.

Yes, and pedestrians not to be in cycle lanes.

03-12-2020 12:56pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Yes, and pedestrians not to be in cycle lanes.

And cyclists to be in cycle lanes and not on the road next to them

breezy1985 · 03-12-2020 12:59pm

Augeo wrote: »

And cyclists to be in cycle lanes and not on the road next to them

Wow well done genius comment never heard that before. There are a million reasons why a cyclist might not use a cycle lane and pedestrians all over them is just one but a quick Google and you will find loads more

breezy1985 · 03-12-2020 1:01pm

hmmm wrote: »

A bell is helpful if it's to make you aware that someone is coming up behind you, preferably with a friendly wave as they pass. Where it tends to get peoples backs up is when it's used as a way to say "get out of my way" through repeated ringing.

I know that's what they do in parts of the continent, however that's not what we are used to here.

It should be used repeatedly in a "get out of my way" manner when they are walking with their back to traffic on a cycle lane

Sleeper12 · 03-12-2020 1:01pm

Pkiernan wrote:

Is it an Irish thing? On the continent its normal behaviour.

I don't know the answer to that but I'm sure I remember lots of bell ringing in Amsterdam many years ago. I did hear Pat Kenny a week or so ago suggesting that not enough cyclists ring their bell in Dublin

Tombo2001 · 03-12-2020 1:01pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The solution here is for cyclists not to be on footpaths.

Not going to happen.

One can pontificate all one wants on this issue - but people tend to prioritise their own personal safety, and that of their kids, above all else.

breezy1985 · 03-12-2020 1:02pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I don't know the answer to that but I'm sure I remember lots of bell ringing in Amsterdam many years ago. I did hear Pat Kenny a week or so ago suggesting that not enough cyclists ring their bell in Dublin

Pat Kenny hates cyclists it doesn't matter that we do or don't do.

He also thinks the Luas is an inefficient use of a good road

tomasrojo · 03-12-2020 1:03pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I always thought adapted for racing meant you actually had to be in a race or going to one so that's good to know.
The size of the lights hasn't changed which is daft as size no longer has any relation to output. The rules of the road still size "lamps" in inches too which should be as illegal as road signs in miles but hey.

All the same, I'd personally prefer a light or combination of lights that is fairly large and bright, than rather small but dazzling.

But they probably should just update that SI so it says something like "visible from a distance of x metres in clear conditions at night". Not sure what x should be. 300m? Gives someone travelling at 50km/h about 20 seconds to notice. 150m, for about 10 seconds? The lights the RSA give away wouldn't meet that, but they don't meet the old size requirement either, to say the least.

On the bell issue, I find that a bell is handy for going around blind bends on cycle facilities, or for passing parked vans, as both situations where you can suddenly find someone on a bike or on foot right in front of you. They're ok for letting people walking on cycle tracks that you're behind them.

I regarded them as a waste of time, based on experience years ago, but since I got a Dutch-style bike that came with one, I have come around to thinking they're moderately useful.

tomasrojo · 03-12-2020 1:05pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Pat Kenny hates cyclists it doesn't matter that we do or don't do.

He also thinks the Luas is an inefficient use of a good road

If people did ring bells all the time, he'd be looking for rage-texters to weigh in on whether they've had enough of the tinkling cacophony.

Macy0161 · 03-12-2020 1:06pm

It really comes down to infrastructure a lot of the time. Many "cyclelanes" are shared use with a line on the ground. My experience these are not respected at all by pedestrians. But even grade separated ones from footpath and pavement are used by people jogging. And that leads to the not using "perfectly good" cycle lanes by people driving.

As a nation we seem to pride ourselves on a disregard for the rules, when it often does actually make a difference to everyone just getting along!

tomasrojo · 03-12-2020 1:06pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

do i recall that air horns are explicitly forbidden for cyclists to use?

That's my recollection too.

whisky_galore · 03-12-2020 1:06pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Not going to happen.

One can pontificate all one wants on this issue - but people tend to prioritise their own personal safety, and that of their kids, above all else.

People who should know better shouldn't be on footpaths. You're a grown adult, not a kiddie on training wheels.

Tombo2001 · 03-12-2020 1:07pm

I love these lads that are 15000 posts up on boards, this is the first time they have posted in the cycling forum - and they are here to tell us what cyclists should and shouldnt be doing.

The same lads that never break the speed limit, never park on the footpath, never amber gamble, never drive with their phone on ..... and so on and so on and so on.

Macy0161 · 03-12-2020 1:08pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

People who should know better shouldn't be on footpaths. You're a grown adult, not a kiddie on training wheels.

If it is a footpath. I've been told to "get off the footpath" by pedestrians that are walking on the cycling side of those painted line shared use paths.

tomasrojo · 03-12-2020 1:09pm

eeeee wrote: »

Except it's not...and it's equally obvious that the having a bell on ones' bike is an ancient old rule, like the reflector on the bottom of the mudguard etc...

If you see old roadsters around, you often see the bottom of the mudguard is painted white. I think that was either an industry convention or a requirement as a conspicuity aid. Think it might have been before reflectors were a requirement.

Tombo2001 · 03-12-2020 1:09pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

People who should know better shouldn't be on footpaths. You're a grown adult, not a kiddie on training wheels.

Grand very good, nice condescending remark.

You can talk all day about what people should do.

If a cyclist feels safer on the footpath than on the road, they will go on the footpath.

And lots of grown adults are parents of kiddies.

EDIT - and no, I dont cycle on the footpath. Unless I'm with a 7 year old. In which case I do, and make zero apology for it.

breezy1985 · 03-12-2020 1:10pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

All the same, I'd personally prefer a light or combination of lights that is fairly large and bright, than rather small but dazzling.

But they probably should just update that SI so it says something like "visible from a distance of x metres in clear conditions at night". Not sure what x should be. 300m? Gives someone travelling at 50km/h about 20 seconds to notice. 150m, for about 10 seconds? The lights the RSA give away wouldn't meet that, but they don't meet the old size requirement either, to say the least.

On the bell issue, I find that a bell is handy for going around blind bends on cycle facilities, or for passing parked vans, as both situations where you can suddenly find someone on a bike or on foot right in front of you. They're ok for letting people walking on cycle tracks that you're behind them.

I regarded them as a waste of time, based on experience years ago, but since I got a Dutch-style bike that came with one, I have come around to thinking they're moderately useful.

The best way to measure lights would be a minimum lumens level and also get rid of all talk of imperial measurements. What I don't get about bike laws in Ireland and all these half arses cycle lanes is it would be so easy to have a quick chat with the EU countries who do it right and copy and paste their law rather than the usual irish approach of copying UK law which also sucks for bikes

tomasrojo · 03-12-2020 1:13pm

I don't know if the StVZO in Germany is a standard that has to be followed, but the lights that conform to it are really good. Light up the road before you and not the tree tops.

tomasrojo · 03-12-2020 1:15pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

The best way to measure lights would be a minimum lumens level and also get rid of all talk of imperial measurements. What I don't get about bike laws in Ireland and all these half arses cycle lanes is it would be so easy to have a quick chat with the EU countries who do it right and copy and paste their law rather than the usual irish approach of copying UK law which also sucks for bikes

The only thing about lumens and all that is that there are competing units. Some people say lux are a better unit. The StVZO-compliant lights usually specify lux, I think.

Also visible-from-a-certain-distance makes it easier for someone who has a light but not the box and it isn't very technical to judge whether their light is about right. And a roadside garda too, I suppose.

Bit about the lux requirement here:
http://www.light-test.info/en/faq-en/169-stvzo-bike-lamps-regulations

I actually wouldn't want a very exacting standard, really. But I don't think the little coin-cell ones the RSA give away would meet any legal minimum requirement I'd regard as useful. My Cateye light on the low setting is 10lux, and it's a good light for seeing your way, but it would considerably exceed what I'd regard as acceptable for a being-seen light.

Tombo2001 · 03-12-2020 1:17pm

My biggest gripe with the bike lights is that they can be hard to attach. In particular, a lot of them come with very finicky rubber band type fittings, such that if you lose one part of it (which can easily happen when charging it) then the rest of it is useless.

Macy0161 · 03-12-2020 1:18pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I don't know if the StVZO in Germany is a standard that has to be followed, but the lights that conform to it are really good. Light up the road before you and not the tree tops.

It is, in my opinion. RSA love copy and pasting, but not interesting in translating and the copy and pasting!

breezy1985 · 03-12-2020 1:25pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

The only thing about lumens and all that is that there are competing units. Some people say lux are a better unit. The StVZO-compliant lights usually specify lux, I think.

Also visible-from-a-certain-distance makes it easier for someone who has a light but not the box and it isn't very technical to judge whether their light is about right. And a roadside garda too, I suppose.

Bit about the lux requirement here:
http://www.light-test.info/en/faq-en/169-stvzo-bike-lamps-regulations

I actually wouldn't want a very exacting standard, really. But I don't think the little coin-cell ones the RSA give away would meet any legal minimum requirement I'd regard as useful.

I think either lumen or lux works but I don't understand enough of the science I just read to be sure but either should work. Measuring visibility from a distance is dependent on the lighting situation around you so is useless when buying your light where as lumen is on the box.

I used use those RSA ones around London where all you need is any kind of light to mark where you are on the road but every inch of the roads there were well lit. I tried using them in Ireland and couldn't see the pot holes

magicbastarder · 03-12-2020 1:34pm

ED E wrote: »

Bell and only a bell, but I imagine as many Gardai know that as know that parking on a verge is illegal.

yeah, i've always found that funny. motorists are allowed have car horns for use in traffic, presumably to be used on cyclists as the need arises. but cyclists who have to share the same space are legally allowed nothing more than a bell to address those same motorists.

anyway, i was kinda getting at the fact that the laws on this are very outdated. cf. the discussion about light standards above.

magicbastarder · 03-12-2020 1:37pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Bit about the lux requirement here:
http://www.light-test.info/en/faq-en/169-stvzo-bike-lamps-regulations
...
what I'd regard as acceptable for a being-seen light.

this - the standard in the link mentioned is for front lights, which *should* be largely directional, but rear lights shouldn't.

tomasrojo · 03-12-2020 1:39pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I think either lumen or lux works but I don't understand enough of the science I just read to be sure but either should work.

Lux is more or less how many lumens are falling on a surface per square metre in front of the bike. It's less total output and closer to how effective the output is.

breezy1985 wrote: »

Measuring visibility from a distance is dependent on the lighting situation around you so is useless when buying your light where as lumen is on the box.

Yeah, it's not very scientific. The old regulations used that style.
Eg.

Each lamp when lit shall be capable of showing to the front of the vehicle a white light visible at night time in clear weather for a distance of 500 feet.

I do sometimes dig out old lights when my current ones fail, and the box long gone, so I'm not always immediately aware of how many lumens or lux they produce. If I wasn't in a hurry, I suppose I could look up the code on the lamp body.

Ring your bell for pedestrians?

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