Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years
Comments
-
The possibility of prosecution would seem to be slim due to the passage of time. Some of the crimes the Gardai have in mind didn’t happen within the Mother and Baby homes, but before the mothers entered the homes.
“ Difficult to prosecute
Speaking at a meeting of the Policing Authority today, Commissioner Harris said the report highlights a number of crimes such as statutory rape and incest.
“We have studied that report, and it is a harrowing and disturbing read,” Harris said.
“Obviously, there are reports of rape, there are reports of children and young as 12 being pregnant. So, even though the criminal law has changed over the intervening years, there may well be yet matters which we can subject to, in effect, crime investigation towards a criminal justice outcome.”
Harris pointed to AGS’s “quite significant experience in dealing with historic cases of sex abuse”, as well as the fact there are now Protective Service Bureaus throughout the country that “are specialists in terms of such complaints”.
However, he acknowledged that – due the passing of time and fact some of the people in question have since died – it may be difficult to prosecute people in relation to the crimes. ”
https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-garda-appeal-5423400-Apr2021/0 -
StarryPlough01 wrote: »The Garda has made a public appeal for witnesses to potential crimes that took place at Mother and Baby homes - over the decades - to come forward'A dedicated email address MotherandBabyHomes@garda.ie has also been set up to specifically deal with reports, while people can also contact any garda station or the confidential freephone number 1800 555 222.'
'Anyone who makes contact will get a personal contact within 48 hours to follow up'
Assoc Professor Vicky Conway has provided a list of crimes that adoptees and survivors of Mother and Baby Homes and other institutions and those abused in foster care may wish to report to Gardai.
Vicky Conway
'Assoc Prof @LawGovDCU, Author Policing Twentieth Century Ireland. Proud member of @lawyers4choice. Host @policedpodcast. Policing & criminal justice mainly'
*PLEASE SHARE WIDELY* @}--->--->
REPORTING CRIMINAL OFFENCES
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e2Nt0i0gM0O4mEr9WsZGCbQl2kKpJtL2QmdUMxPpqqA/edithttp://
Possible Criminal Offences related to Mother and Baby Homes that people may wish to report to the gardaí
The following were crimes during the period in question. The law has changed since 1997 on most of these, but this is the language applicable, and we’ve cited the relevant legislation for you.
Please be aware that any one person may have had a number of crimes committed against them. As a parent you can also report crimes you think were committed against a child of yours that was born in the MBH.
You should also report attempts to commit the below crimes. Also remember that if a person was coerced into doing something it means that they did not consent.
Offences which may have occurred in the institutions or through adoption
Assault – whether by physical punishment, forced labour, non-consensual medical intervention, or through non-consensual vaccine trials (it is not necessary for additional ‘injury’ to have been suffered beyond the fact of non-consensual medical experimentation)
Grievous Bodily Harm (s.20 OAPA 1861)– serious harm caused to a person, with or without a weapon or instrument
Cruelty to Children (s. 12 Children Act 1908)– anyone over 16 who has care of a child who assaults, neglects, ill-treats… causing the child injury to health.
Exposing Children (s. 27 OAPA 1861) exposing (the word in the act) any child under 2 which could endanger their life or health
Sexual offences: rape (s.48 OAPA 1861), indecent assault of a female or male (s52/62 OAPA 1861 ), unlawful carnal knowledge of a girl under 15 (s1 Criminal Law (Amendment) Act 1935); gross indecency (abuse of boys) (s11 Criminal Law (Amendment) Act 1885)
Manslaughter (s.5 OAPA 1861)- Where someone died through neglect or criminal act (called unlawful act manslaughter or gross negligence manslaughter)
False-imprisonment if you feel you were detained in the institution against your will.
Abduction if you feel you were brought to the institution against your will.
Abduction of girls (s. 55 OAPA 1861) taking a girl, unmarried and under 16, from her parents
Child stealing (s56 OAPA 1861) – where a child under 14 was taken without lawful authority from their parent (depriving the parent of care or control)
Removing Child from State (s.40 Adoption Act 1952) – taking a child under 7 out of the state without parental consent
Concealing the Birth of a Child (s.60 OAPA 1861) – anyone who secretly disposed, or tried to secretly dispose, of the body of a child who died before, at, or after birth.
Offences under the Adoption Act 1952• Section 34: arranging an adoption without being a registered adoption society
• Section 39: where an adoption society failed to give a mother information about her rights under the Adoption Act 1952 before taking custody of her child (every person involved in the management of the adoption society is liable where this offence occurs)• Section 40: removing a child under age 7 from the state without parental consent
• Section 41: publishing an advertisement (1) that a parent of a child under 7 desires to have the child adopted, (2) that a person desires to adopt a child, or (3) that a person other than a registered adoption society or public assistance authority is willing to make adoption arrangements.
• Section 42: Making or receiving any payment in exchange for the adoption of a child (this offence does not apply to maintenance payments for the child’s upkeep or solicitors’ fees).
• Section 43: Providing false information to the Adoption Board.
False registration of birth or death (s.30 Births and Deaths Registration Act 1880)
Failure to notify a death to the coroner where required (s. 18(4) Coroners Act 1962) person in charge of institution must notify coroner of a death if reason to believe they died, directly or indirectly, from violence, misadventure, unfair means, or as a result of negligence or misconduct or malpractice, or from any cause other than natural illness/disease for which a doctor had seen them within 1 month before death.
Failure to notify a death to the Registrar General and to the Local Authority (s. 10 Births and Deaths Registration (Ireland) Act 1880, s. 11 Registration of Maternity Homes Act 1934)
Failure to keep proper records of a Mother and Baby Home (s. 10 Registration of Maternity Homes Act 1934) if MBH failed to keep proper records of every reception into, discharge from hom, or confinement, miscarriage, birth/death/removal of child, or name of person removing child and address to which the child had been removed.
Offences Gardaí may have committed
False imprisonment or abduction (if they brought you/returned you to an institution that you didn’t want to go to)
Misconduct in Public Office – if they failed to act on a report you made on any of the above crimes
Starry: A very special thanks to Vicky Conway who has responded quickly to Garda Commissioner Drew Harris' call for survivors to come forward by providing above list of relevant *CRIMINAL OFFENCES* that existed.
The Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes Report's survivor statements are anonymised, thus don't inform Gardai - there's insufficient detail.
Thanks StarryPlough.
Yes Vicky Conway is another academic who deserves a lot of praise. She has been fighting hard for justice on behalf of the survivors. She is a Professor at the School of Law and Government at DCU. She quickly compiled that lost of potential crime for the survivors and the Gardai.
As she said; "It’s very clear that thousands of women and children have been directly harmed, and crimes have possibly taken place. We can’t just say it’s too difficult to try."What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »Thanks StarryPlough.
Yes Vicky Conway is another academic who deserves a lot of praise. She has been fighting hard for justice on behalf of the survivors. She is a Professor at the School of Law and Government at DCU. She quickly compiled that lost of potential crime for the survivors and the Gardai.
As she said; "It’s very clear that thousands of women and children have been directly harmed, and crimes have possibly taken place. We can’t just say it’s too difficult to try."
The big question is WHERE did those crimes take place? Did the women get pregnant IN the Homes or BEFORE they entered them. We’re those pregnancies the result of consensual sex, rape, incest or immaculate conception?
The definition of possible crime scene locations is important.0 -
This request that anyone who has a complaint to make about possible crimes having been committed should come forward is little more than window dressing.
The reality is that in order for the Gardai to commence an investigation with a view to prosecution of individuals for crimes committed is a non-starter. References have been made anecdotally to a wide range of possible crimes but in order for a case to stand up in court a specific individual has to be identified and charged and there has to be sufficient evidence to secure a conviction.
I will be very surprised is any prosecution takes place.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »The big question is WHERE did those crimes take place? Did the women get pregnant IN the Homes or BEFORE they entered them. We’re those pregnancies the result of consensual sex, rape, incest or immaculate conception?
The definition of possible crime scene locations is important.
You need to read the posts. See my post from yesterday which listed the crimes. It's for crimes that happened in the mother and baby homes and through adoption.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »You need to read the posts. See my post from yesterday which listed the crimes. It's for crimes that happened in the mother and baby homes and through adoption.
Not quite. Those women and in some cases, children, didn’t get pregnant in the homes. They weren’t the victims of rape or incest in the homes.
I have read the posts from both the two professors and press releases from the Gardai.
Apologies for the source, but others are behind paywalls.
https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-garda-appeal-5423400-Apr2021/
This link will give you an idea of what the investigators are up against. https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-sisters-reunited-5425083-May2021/ Birth mothers lying about who the babies father was and the circumstances of the conception.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Not quite. Those women and in some cases, children, didn’t get pregnant in the homes. They weren’t the victims of rape or incest in the homes.
I have read the posts from both the two professors and press releases from the Gardai.
Apologies for the source, but others are behind paywalls.
https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-garda-appeal-5423400-Apr2021/
This link will give you an idea of what the investigators are up against. https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-sisters-reunited-5425083-May2021/ Birth mothers lying about who the babies father was and the circumstances of the conception.
You are strangely obsessed by incest.
Here is the Google doc that Professor Vicky Conway has produced to help survivors report their crimes.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e2Nt0i0gM0O4mEr9WsZGCbQl2kKpJtL2QmdUMxPpqqA/edit
This is the introduction.Possible Criminal Offences related to MBHs that people may wish to report to the gardaí
The following were crimes during the period in question. The law has changed since 1997 on most of these, but this is the language applicable, and we’ve cited the relevant legislation for you.
Please be aware that any one person may have had a number of crimes committed against them. As a parent you can also report crimes you think were committed against a child of yours that was born in the MBH.
You should also report attempts to commit the below crimes. Also remember that if a person was coerced into doing something it means that they did not consent.
Offences which may have occurred in the institutions or through adoption
The full list is there under the introduction above. I can repost it but StarryPlough has listed them earlier. It seems clear to me that these crimes are relevant to people living in the Mother and Baby homes including illegal adoption. The crimes that happened prior to survivors entering the MBH are not in the scope of that document but the survivors are naturally free to report those at any time. Please point out the crimes you are concerned with or that you think are missing. I can provide you with an email address for Prof Conway if you want to make your thoughts known.
.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
TheChizler wrote: »There's a difference between not finding conclusive evidence in their limited investigation and saying it definitely didn't happen. The commission did not state the latter as you claim.
The Gardaí have greater powers of investigation, hopefully we'll get better evidence now.
With regard to Dr Maeve O'Rourke's comments… A quick note...
Firstly, the Final Report does not have a public chapter on its methodology (detailing how are they going to weigh evidence, etc).
The Commission had clear evidence of forced adoption. There was an abuse of power within the homes. One witness Alice Coughlan was told that she 'wouldn't be getting her daughter,' and if she didn't agree to adoption her daughter would be put in an institution until she turned 16.' [Alice Coughlan, a survivor of the Bessborough Mother and Baby Home, Co Cork]
Girls under 18 were too young to give consent to adoption.
Forced Incarceration
Famously, Independent Catherine Connolly nearly blew a gasket about the Executive Summary finding there was no evidence that women were forced to enter Mother and Baby Homes by the Church or State authorities.Executive Summary"8 There is no evidence that women were forced to enter mother and baby homes by the church or State authorities. Most women had no alternative. Many pregnant single women contacted the Department of Local Government and Public Health (DLGPH), later the Department of Health, their local health authority, or a Catholic charity seeking assistance because they had nowhere to go and no money. Women were brought to mother and baby homes by their parents or other family members without being consulted as to their destination.
The Executive Summary also quotes the Archbishop of Tuam saying the only thing that prevents the unmarried mothers leaving is the strict supervision and boundary walls …
Forced Adoption
The Commission stated it found very little evidence that children were forcibly taken from their mothers. it agreed that the mothers didn't have any choice, but said that's not the same as forced adoption.
[BTW, Regina Coeli Hostel - under Commission's remit - relying on voluntary resources helped single women keep heir babies and raise them.]
Academic Mairead Enright wrote a forensic piece - published in the journal.ie in January 2021:
Mairead Enright said the report set out that women and girls entered the Mother and Baby Homes, County Homes… due to social and economic pressure falling short of force, and that they were not compelled to remain there.
Mairead said Commission's Recommendations don't suggest financial redress should be available in regard to "forced" adoption or women's coerced entry to these institutions. The report maintained that women and girls entered the Mother and Baby Homes, County Homes… due to social and economic pressure falling short of force and that they were not compelled to remain there.
Starry: Tusla’s review of records raised alarm bells around adoption practices. There was evidence of allegations of forced or coerced consent. Records of underage mothers or those with mental health issues who could not consent to the adoption of their child. Their files related to birth mothers as young as 12 years and MAJORITY were underage. Mothers' attempts to reclaim children were not acted on. One mother worked close to the convent so that she could reclaim her child when she turned 16. She was later told her child had died (I've read about a couple of well-known cases like this).
Source: ^^^
Jack Horgan-Jones, Jennifer Bray
Tue, Mar 9, 2021, 22:13
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/q-a-what-did-the-review-of-ireland-s-adoption-records-find-1.4505816http://"The report raises a series of problems. The absence of definitive findings makes the path ahead unclear – but the State, confronted by thousands of potential cases, cannot do nothing. Further, the picture of the treatment of women and children during the adoption process demands some action.
........
Regina Coeli Hostel (under Commission's remit) relying on voluntary resources helped single women keep heir babies and raise them
By Sarah MacDonald
28 April, 2017
CATHOLICIRELAND.NET
https://www.catholicireland.net/frank-duffs-care-unmarried-mothers-children-praised/http://0 -
StarryPlough01 wrote: »With regard to Dr Maeve O'Rourke's comments… A quick note...
Firstly, the Final Report does not have a public chapter on its methodology (detailing how are they going to weigh evidence, etc).
The Commission had clear evidence of forced adoption. There was an abuse of power within the homes. One witness Alice Coughlan was told that she 'wouldn't be getting her daughter,' and if she didn't agree to adoption her daughter would be put in an institution until she turned 16.' [Alice Coughlan, a survivor of the Bessborough Mother and Baby Home, Co Cork]
...
I'm not disputing that the evidence existed, or that the commission didn't ignore anything, just that they did not say what it was claimed they said.0 -
Advertisement
-
Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »You are strangely obsessed by incest.
Here is the Google doc that Professor Vicky Conway has produced to help survivors.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e2Nt0i0gM0O4mEr9WsZGCbQl2kKpJtL2QmdUMxPpqqA/edit
This is the introduction.
The full list is there under the introduction above. It seems clear to me that these crimes are relevant to people living in the Mother and Baby homes. The crimes that happened prior to survivors entering the MBH are not in the scope. Please point out the crimes you are concerned with or that you think are missing. I can provide you with an email address for Prof Conway if you want to make your thoughts known.
I am simply pointing out that the Gardai are not just interested in what happened IN the homes, but possible crimes that led to the mothers, some not yet teenagers, becoming pregnant in the first place.
Try taking the blinkers off, think for yourself and see the bigger picture.0 -
https://www.rte.ie/news/mother-and-baby-homes/2021/0429/1212798-mother-baby-appeal/An Garda Síochána said a dedicated team reviewed the report of the Mother and Baby Homes Commission, but said there is insufficient detail in the report to commence an investigation at this moment.
Because the report is anonymised, any "proper investigation" would not be possible without the identification of individual parties affected by specific occurrences.
They are asking anyone who feels they were a victim of crime relating to a pregnancy or abuse involving their stay at a mother-and-baby home to come forward.
They have also appealed to anyone who has information that could assist an investigation into a criminal act at one of these institutions to report it.
It seems crystal clear to me.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I am simply pointing out that the Gardai are not just interested in what happened IN the homes, but possible crimes that led to the mothers, some not yet teenagers, becoming pregnant in the first place.
Try taking the blinkers off, think for yourself and see the bigger picture.
I think you are muddying the waters. All sexual offence crimes should be investigated once reported. Fully and without prejudice. That goes without saying. And if survivors get the courage to do so, I really hope they report them.
Vicky Conway, Catherine Corless and Maeve O'Rourke are primarily concerned with what happened in the homes following the revelations since 2013. What astounds me is that the Gardai have waited until 2021 to investigate the crimes and atrocities that occurred in Mother and Baby homes for decades. Including illegal adoption rackets.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »https://www.rte.ie/news/mother-and-baby-homes/2021/0429/1212798-mother-baby-appeal/
It seems crystal clear to me.
From your quote:
1 They are asking anyone who feels they were a victim of crime relating to a pregnancy or abuse involving their stay at a mother-and-baby home to come forward.
2 They have also appealed to anyone who has information that could assist an investigation into a criminal act at one of these institutions to report it.
Two different things.
No 1 relating to the circumstances of the pregnancy and
No 2 relating to events within the home.
The Gardai are looking for evidence relating to both.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »From your quote:
1 They are asking anyone who feels they were a victim of crime relating to a pregnancy or abuse involving their stay at a mother-and-baby home to come forward.
2 They have also appealed to anyone who has information that could assist an investigation into a criminal act at one of these institutions to report it.
Two different things.
No 1 relating to the circumstances of the pregnancy and
No 2 relating to events within the home.
The Gardai are looking for evidence relating to both.
OK.
I am happy with the Gardai investigating all crimes reported by survivors before and during their stay in Mother and Baby Homes, including adoptions.
Do you agree with that? Simple question.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »OK.
I am happy with the Gardai investigating all crimes reported by survivors before and during their stay in Mother and Baby Homes, including adoptions.
Do you agree with that? Simple question.
At last! Of course all crimes should be investigated.0 -
Advertisement
-
Deleted User wrote: »At last! Of course all crimes should be investigated.
You have a very strange motive on this thread.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
1 -
Enda Kenny 2017
“We took their babies and gifted them, sold them, trafficked them, starved them, neglected them or denied them to the point of their disappearance from our hearts, our sight, our country and, in the case of Tuam and possibly other places, from life itself.”
Gardai 2021
Gardaí say insufficient detail in Mother and Baby Homes report to launch criminal probe as they make public appealWhat are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »You have a very strange motive on this thread.
It's coincidentally, the sort of stance I would take if I were employed by the church to fight for their side in a public forum.1 -
Deleted User wrote: »At last! Of course all crimes should be investigated.
Unless they happen in Carna with the possible involvement of a Garda.0 -
Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »You have a very strange motive on this thread.
It’s a public forum. No need for motives. Just healthy debate showing both sides of a topic.0 -
Advertisement
-
What can AGS do though, they can't prosecute people who are dead, e.g. Dr Devalera it seems was arranging adoptions when he wasn't a registered adoption society & was obviously falsifying birth cert information. That's at least two on that list of offences.
I read somewhere there's been 100,000 adoptions since the 1952 act. Obviously not all were illegal and the falsified ones didn't go through the adoption authority. it's a huge mess. Maybe AGS are hoping to get information that wasn't included in the commission report0 -
:rolleyes:TheChizler wrote: »I'm not disputing that the evidence existed, or that the commission didn't ignore anything, just that they did not say what it was claimed they said.
So your interpretation of my reply to you from the Final Report -"The Commission stated it found very little evidence that children were forcibly taken from their mothers. it agreed that the mothers didn't have any choice, but said that's not the same as forced adoption."
- is the Commission isn't saying there was no forced adoption. WHAT? :rolleyes:
The report's finding (see above) is disingenuous and can't be taken seriously.1 -
StarryPlough01 wrote: »:rolleyes:
So your interpretation of my reply to you from the Final Report -"The Commission stated it found very little evidence that children were forcibly taken from their mothers. it agreed that the mothers didn't have any choice, but said that's not the same as forced adoption."
- is the Commission isn't saying there was no forced adoption. WHAT? :rolleyes:
The report's finding (see above) is disingenuous and can't be taken seriously.
Yes the way they have phrased it leaves them open to further evidence proving it. Maybe there's an implication there that they don't think it's likely but it's subjective.
It doesn't help an argument that a report is incorrect by creating further misrepresentations about that report.0 -
TheChizler wrote: »Yes the way they have phrased it leaves them open to further evidence proving it. Maybe there's an implication there that they don't think it's likely but it's subjective.
It doesn't help an argument that a report is incorrect by creating further misrepresentations about that report.
The Final Report is a joke and your defence of it is laughable.0 -
StarryPlough01 wrote: »The Final Report is a joke and your defence of it is laughable.
I haven't once defended the report. Just corrected what it was claimed it contained.0 -
'Episode 40 – Truth-seeking in Ireland with Maeve O’Rourke and Mary Harney'
POSTED APRIL 29, 2021 JANET ANDERSON
Podcast here:
Episode 40 – Truth-seeking in Ireland with Maeve O’Rourke and Mary Harney"In a departure from our normal war crimes fare we are looking at advocacy for justice, truth and reparations in Ireland. For decades thousands of unmarried women were forced into mother and baby homes run by the church or the state. Thousands of babies died in the homes and those that did survive were regularly (illegally) adopted and often went to industrial or reform schools, which are also subject to a separate reports on abuses there.
....
"Janet and Stephanie spoke to Mary Harney who was born in a Mother and Baby Home in Bessborough in Co. Cork. She was illegally taken away from her mum, forcibly adopted and later sent to an industrial school. Mary is a recent law graduate in Galway, and she’s currently a current tutor in the Human Rights Law Clinic at the National University.
"Also joining us was Maeve O’Rourke, lecturer in human rights law and director of the Human Rights Law Clinic at the National University of Ireland in Galway.
"Mary and Maeve are both speaking about the final report of the Irish government’s enquiry into the Mother and Baby Homes which was released in January this year.
....
Some quick notes
Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes
Dr Maeve O'Rourke on Commission of Investigation:
Secret investigation.
Didn't apply Human Rights framework to its analysis.
Presenter said:
Can't fact check the government or fact check the report because you don't know and can't have have access to the documents their conclusions are based on.
Dr Maeve O'Rourke agrees.
Maeve O'Rourke speaking
'Now Government is holding entire archive gathered and hasn't made efforts to make administrative records public in any way. They have administrative records and personal data.'
After massive public campaign in October 2020, government acknowledged EU Law is directly affected - you can't blanket restrict it - personal data. GDPR.
Denied access to archive defacto denies access to courts.
Historical case to disapply Statute of Limitations, you need to show court a huge amount of documentary evidence that can form basis of case. This is to show court that defendant (e.g., State) will get a fair trial said Maeve.
So being denied access to archives defacto denies you access to court.
Elizabeth Coppin V Ireland to UNCAT - Case is ongoing
Background: Survivor Elizabeth Coppin signed waivers regarding Residential Institutions Redress Board (RIRB) and Magdalene ‘ex gratia restorative justice’ scheme:"UNCAT said torture and freedom from torture and freedom of ill treatment is an absolute right and you can't be forced to sign away your right to accountability. Therefore this waiver is unenforceable in respect to our jurisdiction. Ireland ratified Convention against torture in 2002, it's continuing violations. Jurisprudence states that on date Ireland ratified it then took on obligations to investigate and ensure access to mechanisms and to ensure redress in respect of alleged or proven abuses even before ratification."
Mary Harney said: Can't get docs to say we were in homes. Denied accountability.1 -
https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40279259.html?type=ampOn April 13, the Irish Examiner reported that the Department of Children has been delayed in providing access to the records and testimony compiled by the Mother and Baby Homes Commission.
Delays and obstacles manufactured by the Government and State bodies in granting access to records are nothing new.
This Government’s refusal to properly facilitate full access to the records of the Mother and Baby Homes Commission perpetuates the wrongs of previous Governments by continuing a culture of secrecy, shame, and discrimination against those who have suffered so much indignity at the hands of the Church and State.
While the establishment of the Commission of Investigation was undoubtedly welcome, its execution, ultimate findings and lack of due regard for evidence given by survivors all highlight the same old approach by the State to women: one that silences, disbelieves, and is reductive and tone-deaf.
The government seem to be stalling again and seem intent on contravening EU law. They are creating even more problems for themselves down the line. I see more and more litigation as a result.
Put pressure on O'Gorman and the Greens - the emails and tweets work!What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
StarryPlough01 wrote: »'Episode 40 – Truth-seeking in Ireland with Maeve O’Rourke and Mary Harney'
POSTED APRIL 29, 2021 JANET ANDERSON
Podcast here:
Episode 40 – Truth-seeking in Ireland with Maeve O’Rourke and Mary Harney"In a departure from our normal war crimes fare we are looking at advocacy for justice, truth and reparations in Ireland. For decades thousands of unmarried women were forced into mother and baby homes run by the church or the state. Thousands of babies died in the homes and those that did survive were regularly (illegally) adopted and often went to industrial or reform schools, which are also subject to a separate reports on abuses there.
....
"Janet and Stephanie spoke to Mary Harney who was born in a Mother and Baby Home in Bessborough in Co. Cork. She was illegally taken away from her mum, forcibly adopted and later sent to an industrial school. Mary is a recent law graduate in Galway, and she’s currently a current tutor in the Human Rights Law Clinic at the National University.
"Also joining us was Maeve O’Rourke, lecturer in human rights law and director of the Human Rights Law Clinic at the National University of Ireland in Galway.
"Mary and Maeve are both speaking about the final report of the Irish government’s enquiry into the Mother and Baby Homes which was released in January this year.
....
Some quick notes
Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes
Dr Maeve O'Rourke on Commission of Investigation:
Secret investigation.
Didn't apply Human Rights framework to its analysis.
Presenter said:
Can't fact check the government or fact check the report because you don't know and can't have have access to the documents their conclusions are based on.
Dr Maeve O'Rourke agrees.
Maeve O'Rourke speaking
'Now Government is holding entire archive gathered and hasn't made efforts to make administrative records public in any way. They have administrative records and personal data.'
After massive public campaign in October 2020, government acknowledged EU Law is directly affected - you can't blanket restrict it - personal data. GDPR.
Denied access to archive defacto denies access to courts.
Historical case to disapply Statute of Limitations, you need to show court a huge amount of documentary evidence that can form basis of case. This is to show court that defendant (e.g., State) will get a fair trial said Maeve.
So being denied access to archives defacto denies you access to court.
Elizabeth Coppin V Ireland to UNCAT - Case is ongoing
Background: Survivor Elizabeth Coppin signed waivers regarding Residential Institutions Redress Board (RIRB) and Magdalene ‘ex gratia restorative justice’ scheme:"UNCAT said torture and freedom from torture and freedom of ill treatment is an absolute right and you can't be forced to sign away your right to accountability. Therefore this waiver is unenforceable in respect to our jurisdiction. Ireland ratified Convention against torture in 2002, it's continuing violations. Jurisprudence states that on date Ireland ratified it then took on obligations to investigate and ensure access to mechanisms and to ensure redress in respect of alleged or proven abuses even before ratification."
Mary Harney said: Can't get docs to say we were in homes. Denied accountability.
There is a link to that podcast above here;
https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1388950447734542337
Well worth a listen.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
StarryPlough01 wrote: »'Episode 40 – Truth-seeking in Ireland with Maeve O’Rourke and Mary Harney'
POSTED APRIL 29, 2021 JANET ANDERSON
Podcast here:
Episode 40 – Truth-seeking in Ireland with Maeve O’Rourke and Mary Harney"In a departure from our normal war crimes fare we are looking at advocacy for justice, truth and reparations in Ireland. For decades thousands of unmarried women were forced into mother and baby homes run by the church or the state. Thousands of babies died in the homes and those that did survive were regularly (illegally) adopted and often went to industrial or reform schools, which are also subject to a separate reports on abuses there.
....
"Janet and Stephanie spoke to Mary Harney who was born in a Mother and Baby Home in Bessborough in Co. Cork. She was illegally taken away from her mum, forcibly adopted and later sent to an industrial school. Mary is a recent law graduate in Galway, and she’s currently a current tutor in the Human Rights Law Clinic at the National University.
"Also joining us was Maeve O’Rourke, lecturer in human rights law and director of the Human Rights Law Clinic at the National University of Ireland in Galway.
"Mary and Maeve are both speaking about the final report of the Irish government’s enquiry into the Mother and Baby Homes which was released in January this year.
....
Some quick notes
Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes
Dr Maeve O'Rourke on Commission of Investigation:
Secret investigation.
Didn't apply Human Rights framework to its analysis.
Presenter said:
Can't fact check the government or fact check the report because you don't know and can't have have access to the documents their conclusions are based on.
Dr Maeve O'Rourke agrees.
Maeve O'Rourke speaking
'Now Government is holding entire archive gathered and hasn't made efforts to make administrative records public in any way. They have administrative records and personal data.'
After massive public campaign in October 2020, government acknowledged EU Law is directly affected - you can't blanket restrict it - personal data. GDPR.
Denied access to archive defacto denies access to courts.
Historical case to disapply Statute of Limitations, you need to show court a huge amount of documentary evidence that can form basis of case. This is to show court that defendant (e.g., State) will get a fair trial said Maeve.
So being denied access to archives defacto denies you access to court.
Elizabeth Coppin V Ireland to UNCAT - Case is ongoing
Background: Survivor Elizabeth Coppin signed waivers regarding Residential Institutions Redress Board (RIRB) and Magdalene ‘ex gratia restorative justice’ scheme:"UNCAT said torture and freedom from torture and freedom of ill treatment is an absolute right and you can't be forced to sign away your right to accountability. Therefore this waiver is unenforceable in respect to our jurisdiction. Ireland ratified Convention against torture in 2002, it's continuing violations. Jurisprudence states that on date Ireland ratified it then took on obligations to investigate and ensure access to mechanisms and to ensure redress in respect of alleged or proven abuses even before ratification."
Mary Harney said: Can't get docs to say we were in homes. Denied accountability.
Could you separate out what, if any of this is your own viewpoint. It reads like a copy and paste dump.
Thanks.0 -
Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »There is a link to that podcast above here;
https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1388950447734542337
Well worth a listen.
Thank you CM.
I'm still finding my feet on boards.ie. I'm having fun playing with the menu. Prior to signing up I had never looked in here. Heard about it through word of mouth. From what I've read so far, you're doing a great job!
I've been following Maeve O'Rourke for years. She told the Magdalene women that she would stick by them for the long haul and Maeve has kept that promise to them.
Her body of work is impressive. Maeve attended UCD (BCL) and has vast experience abroad having worked in UK and US and has also attained degrees from Birmingham University (PhD) and Harvard (LLM) - she is a registered Attorney at Law in New York.
Maeve is an unassuming, confident and compassionate young woman. She knows no bounds.
She is a tremendous role model for her students at NUIG. Dr Maeve O'Rourke has made a difference!0 -
Advertisement
-
StarryPlough01 wrote: »Thank you CM.
I'm still finding my feet on boards.ie. I'm having fun playing with the menu. Prior to signing up I had never looked in here. Heard about it through word of mouth. From what I've read so far, you're doing a great job!
I've been following Maeve O'Rourke for years. She told the Magdalene women that she would stick by them for the long haul and Maeve has kept that promise to them.
Her body of work is impressive. Maeve attended UCD (BCL) and has vast experience abroad having worked in UK and US and has also attained degrees from Birmingham University (PhD) and Harvard (LLM) - she is a registered Attorney at Law in New York.
Maeve is an unassuming, confident and compassionate young woman. She knows no bounds.
She is a tremendous role model for her students at NUIG. Dr Maeve O'Rourke has made a difference!
She is an amazing lady. Highly respected here in Galway. I honestly think this country needs to be run by women. The men have let us down badly. There are so many amazing ladies involved with justice for the Mother and Baby homes survivors and victims e.g. Maeve O'Rourke, Catherine Corless, Philomena Lee, Catherine Connolly, Noelle Brown, Vicky Conway, Holly Cairns, Mairead Enright, Mary Harney, Alison O’Reilly and many more.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
IT article from March says the liquidators for st Patrick's Guild want to hear from anyone who might have a claim against the institution.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/adopted-people-suing-st-patrick-s-guild-claim-kidnapping-forgery-1.4506782?mode=amp0 -
mrslancaster wrote: »IT article from March says the liquidators for st Patrick's Guild want to hear from anyone who might have a claim against the institution.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/adopted-people-suing-st-patrick-s-guild-claim-kidnapping-forgery-1.4506782?mode=amp
“ Tusla has appealed to survivors of mother and baby homes to make contact with the agency if they suffered abuse as a child.
Many survivors of the homes gave birth when they were underage, and in some cases became pregnant as a result of sexual abuse, the agency said in a statement.”
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40281179.html
This suggests that the abuses being investigated are in connection with the babies conception.0 -
They have also urged gardaí to open a separate investigation into the practice of unregistered burials at mother and baby homes, wherein the case of Bessborough alone, the burial place of the majority of the 923 children who died there over the years is unknown.
Like something out of Cambodia under Pol Pot.0 -
Great work by NUIG students for the Mother and Baby home survivors.
https://www.sundayworld.com/news/irish-news/galway-students-create-resource-to-help-mother-and-baby-home-survivors-access-records-40382352.htmlGalway students create resource to help Mother and Baby Home survivors access records.
The guide includes information on victims’ rights under GDPR and provides template letters that can be used to make a Subject Access Request under GDPR and a Freedom of Information Request to the Department.
The guide also contains template letters to make requests to Tusla and other organisations holding records, as well as information on where to send these letters and how to avail of any additional support services that may be required.
“This project is dedicated to all those affected by adoption and the Mother and Baby Homes, especially those who continue to struggle to access their records.”What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
Why all the calls for people to contact AGS & Tulsa etc? Is it just paying lip service? If anyone affected wants to take a legal case it seems the state will fight it based on the statute of limitations if this linked article is correct.
https://www.sundayworld.com/news/irish-news/state-plans-to-fight-legal-cases-brought-by-survivors-of-mother-and-baby-homes-40191358.html0 -
Deleted User wrote: »“ Tusla has appealed to survivors of mother and baby homes to make contact with the agency if they suffered abuse as a child.
Many survivors of the homes gave birth when they were underage, and in some cases became pregnant as a result of sexual abuse, the agency said in a statement.”
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40281179.html
This suggests that the abuses being investigated are in connection with the babies conception.mrslancaster wrote: »Why all the calls for people to contact AGS & Tulsa etc? Is it just paying lip service? If anyone affected wants to take a legal case it seems the state will fight it based on the statute of limitations if this linked article is correct.
https://www.sundayworld.com/news/irish-news/state-plans-to-fight-legal-cases-brought-by-survivors-of-mother-and-baby-homes-40191358.html
One reason has been given. If a child of 14 has given birth, was that the result of innocence, ignorance, rape, incest or immaculate conception? The perpetrator of the original crime can still be prosecuted.0 -
According to today's Evening Herald, 33 criminal complaint reports have been filed about abuses at Mother and Baby homes since the Garda appeal last week.
What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
1 -
Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »According to today's Evening Herald, 33 criminal complaint reports have been filed about abuses at Mother and Baby homes since the Garda appeal last week.
Records will be crucial both for the prosecution and defence of these cases.0 -
Advertisement
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5r82gIVu9Q
Mother and Baby Home Report
My Notes:
Excerpts from this broad sweep of important information for survivors, adoptees…
Breeda Murphy PRO Tuam Mother and Baby Home Alliance
Breeda gives a great overview here
"One would have thought that Garda Commissioner would have received entire file [archive] from the Minister but that doesn't appear to be the case. So Garda are looking at crimes of abuse within the Mother and Baby Homes - in particular at the 5,600 young girls who are aged between 12-18 years who gave birth within those institutions - rape incest that girls became pregnant by… But of course there are many many crimes...
"Many crimes - administrative records from the State and various government departments and entire file [archive] held today by Minister for Children. If necessary, go and seize docs in all of the archives of religious and State. Then, surely they could begin a proper investigation.
"To ask members of Tuam Mother and Baby Home Alliance going back 70 plus years to provide documentation when in fact they are not even entitled [allowed] to have their Birth Certifcate. It's laughable except it's true.Starry: I AGREE. IT IS LAUGHABLE BREEDA. IT'S A CATCH-22 - A BUREAUCRATIC NIGHTMARE FOR SURVIVORS.
Solicitor Frank Brehany talking extemporaneously (unprepared - out of the moment) below:
Frank said: 'Garda Commissioner Statement was made with approval of Irish government - there would have been discussions on that.'
PLEASE NOTE: Solicitor Frank Brehany misspoke one word. He meant to say "OUTSIDE OF THE TIME" that is, when the actual crime of rape, incest... occurred. For example, *outside of the time* relates to the Catholic priest's rape in the presbytery causing you to become pregnant; in the home of the paedophile uncle or another person; or in your bedroom at your parents' house. Brehany misspoke when he said "out of time" - otherwise Frank Brehany's below two points would overlap.
To clarify, Frank Brehany's two points are: *OUTSIDE OF THE TIME* (see above) - AND — *WITHIN THE TIME* of the Mother and Baby Homes or other institutions*
Frank Brehany speaking here - with my correction and/or annotation in parenthesis [ ]…
"First point: Garda recognise criminal offences have been committed or suspect criminal offences have been committed.
"The focus is on Mother and Baby Homes - quite correctly. BUT when you read the statement there are two conditions that create the rise of criminal complaints.
Outside of the Time of the Mother and Baby Homes or other institutions:
"The first is when you look at the statement they want people to report a crime that arose 'out of time' they had spent in Mother and Baby Homes."[Starry: ^^^ SOLICITOR MR BREHANY MEANT TO SAY *OUTSIDE THE TIME* OF THE MOTHER AND BABY HOMES - when the rape / incest occurred causing you to become pregnant]
Frank Brehany suggests it ^^^ "encapsulates all onward experiences. So adoptees, magdalene laundries, industrial schools… you name it."
Within the time of the Mother and Baby Homes:
"The second part of their statement talks about a crime committed AT or WITHIN a Mother and Baby Home.[Starry: For example, false imprisonment, child stealing...].
"So you can see the distinction. A crime that arises 'out of time' spent there, and that imports the onward point. And the crime that is committed within.[Starry: SOLICITOR BREHANY MEANT TO SAY *OUTSIDE OF THE TIME* IN A MOTHER AND BABY HOME - THAT IS, WHEN THE ACTUAL CRIME OF RAPE OR INCEST OCCURRED CAUSING YOU TO BECOME PREGNANT]
"If you are going to investigate a crime, you gather your documentation before you start before you talk to anybody.
Brehany stated that he saw this in Garda statement: 'We can't get to the documentation." "Ah ah Garda Commissioner. That's incorrect because if you believe that a crime has been committed, you therefore have to respect the rights of those who have had crimes committed against them. They have Article 6 rights under the European Convention of Human Rights."
"And there are plenty of cases out there on deficient police investigations, which prevented victims from achieving a FAIR hearing under Article 6.
To be continued…
_______
I have listened to all the broadcast and solicitor Frank Brehany did an outstanding job. Please watch the video to learn what powers the Garda have, etc...0 -
Deleted User wrote: »“ Tusla has appealed to survivors of mother and baby homes to make contact with the agency if they suffered abuse as a child.
Many survivors of the homes gave birth when they were underage, and in some cases became pregnant as a result of sexual abuse, the agency said in a statement.”
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40281179.html
This suggests that the abuses being investigated are in connection with the babies conception.
"This suggests that the abuses being investigated are in connection with the babies conception."
^^^ Your comment above is incorrect.
Respectfully, view below post - Solicitor Frank Brehany:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117107271&postcount=2342http://1 -
StarryPlough01 wrote: »"This suggests that the abuses being investigated are in connection with the babies conception."
^^^ Your comment above is incorrect.
Respectfully, view below post - Solicitor Frank Brehany:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117107271&postcount=2342http://
From your above post. “In particular at the 5,600 young girls who are aged between 12-18 years who gave birth within those institutions - rape incest that girls became pregnant by…”
Are you suggesting that girls became pregnant by incest within the homes? Please explain!
Respectfully , read what you’re copying and pasting. Maryanne. Retired.0 -
Someone tell me why I should be bothered responding to trolls who deliberately miscomprehend?
Have a nice day.1 -
StarryPlough01 wrote: »Someone tell me why I should be bothered responding to trolls who deliberately miscomprehend?
Have a nice day.
What is to miscomprehend?
Where did those girls become pregnant by incest?
Surely to goodness we’re now expected to believe that it happened within the mother and child homes?
A simple question. An equally simple answer will suffice.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »What is to miscomprehend?
Where did those girls become pregnant by incest?
Surely to goodness we’re now expected to believe that it happened within the mother and child homes?
A simple question. An equally simple answer will suffice.
I'll give it a go.
Ok, absolutely nobody on this thread is saying that sexual offences committed against survivors prior to entering the Mother and Baby homes should be excluded or ignored in anyway. All sexual offences should be reported and fully investigated/prosecuted. Without question and irrespective of who committed those sexual offences. It goes without saying really. Nobody is arguing otherwise. And I would hope that many of these sexual offences outside MBHs have already been reported. And if not, they should be and the perpetrators should be jailed. I don't care how long it was ago.
However and here is the key point to grasp. MBH survivors have never been precluded from reporting those sexual offences outside the homes. They could have reported them at anytime for decades if they had the courage to do so. And often it does take courage and support to report sexual offences. However the Mother and Baby home commission has just completed after many delays. A report has be produced and a state apology has been issued. Up until this point many survivors felt they could not report the crimes that happened in the MBHs because they were afraid and felt they would not be believed. They also have no access to important records that would help prove those crimes. They almost had their own testimonies deleted! The state apology in January changes that. Can you see the difference? It is also why the Gardai have suddenly got involved. A bit late if you ask me. The reports alludes to many of the crimes that happened within the homes.
So you can keep going on about rape and incest prior to entering the mother and baby homes if you prefer but I think it makes you look foolish. It doesn't seem to form any kind of an argument but please correct me if I am missing it. You never ever seem bothered by what happened in the homes. You challenge a lot of it, badly, almost by impulse. I will repost the potential offences - please read them.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
1 -
Advertisement
-
Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »Enda Kenny 2017
“We took their babies and gifted them, sold them, trafficked them, starved them, neglected them or denied them to the point of their disappearance from our hearts, our sight, our country and, in the case of Tuam and possibly other places, from life itself.”
Gardai 2021
Gardaí say insufficient detail in Mother and Baby Homes report to launch criminal probe as they make public appeal
I wonder did anyone ask the Gardai why they did not make their appeal after Enda speech in 2017 or after Corless's discovery in 2013.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
List of potential crimes...
Assault – whether by physical punishment, forced labour, non-consensual medical intervention, or through non-consensual vaccine trials
Grievous Bodily Harm
Cruelty to Children – anyone over 16 who has care of a child who assaults, neglects, ill-treats… causing the child injury to health.
Exposing Children - exposing any child under 2 which could endanger their life or health
Sexual offences: rape, indecent assault, unlawful carnal knowledge, gross indecency
Manslaughter
False-imprisonment
Child stealing
Concealing the Birth of a Child
Offences under the Adoption Act 1952 - Many listed including arranging an adoption without being a registered adoption society, failing to give a mother information about her rights, removing a child under age 7 from the state without parental consent, publishing an advertisement, any payment in exchange for the adoption of a child, porviding false information to the Adoption Board
False registration of birth or death
Failure to notify a death to the coroner where required - person in charge of institution must notify coroner of a death if reason to believe they died, directly or indirectly, from violence, misadventure, unfair means, or as a result of negligence or misconduct or malpractice, or from any cause other than natural illness/disease for which a doctor had seen them within 1 month before death.
Failure to notify a death to the Registrar General and to the Local Authority
Failure to keep proper records of a Mother and Baby Home
False imprisonment or abduction
Misconduct in Public Office – if they failed to act on a report you made on any of the above crimesWhat are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
People can report crimes at MotherandBabyHomes@garda.ie or 1800 555 222
What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
Records will be crucial both for the prosecution and defence of these cases.
Dr Maeve O'Rourke pointed out some of the same issues when the Gardai suddenly felt compelled to involved themselves.
https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1387854607557267466
No harm emailing a few Govt TDs pushing for the return of testimonies to the survivors. They are stalling again.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
0 -
Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »I'll give it a go.
Ok, absolutely nobody on this thread is saying that sexual offences committed against survivors prior to entering the Mother and Baby homes should be excluded or ignored in anyway. All sexual offences should be reported and fully investigated/prosecuted. Without question and irrespective of who committed those sexual offences. It goes without saying really. Nobody is arguing otherwise. And I would hope that many of these sexual offences outside MBHs have already been reported. And if not, they should be and the perpetrators should be jailed. I don't care how long it was ago.
However and here is the key point to grasp. MBH survivors have never been precluded from reporting those sexual offences outside the homes. They could have reported them at anytime for decades if they had the courage to do so. And often it does take courage and support to report sexual offences. However the Mother and Baby home commission has just completed after many delays. A report has be produced and a state apology has been issued. Up until this point many survivors felt they could not report the crimes that happened in the MBHs because they were afraid and felt they would not be believed. They also have no access to important records that would help prove those crimes. They almost had their own testimonies deleted! The state apology in January changes that. Can you see the difference? It is also why the Gardai have suddenly got involved. A bit late if you ask me. The reports alludes to many of the crimes that happened within the homes.
So you can keep going on about rape and incest prior to entering the mother and baby homes if you prefer but I think it makes you look foolish. It doesn't seem to form any kind of an argument but please correct me if I am missing it. You never ever seem bothered by what happened in the homes. You challenge a lot of it, badly, almost by impulse. I will repost the potential offences - please read them.
Thank you for your detailed reply. The poster I was responding to seemed to be suggesting that children became pregnant, some through incest, while in these homes. I sought a simple clarification. The homes have enough crimes attributed to them without adding impossible ones to the mix.
ALL crimes should be reported and investigated. There’s no denying that.0 -
Advertisement
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
Advertisement