BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

SozBbz · 29-06-2020 5:51pm

cfuserkildare wrote: »

So the fella that flew the White Lives Matter over the Etihad didn't get Sacked?

Of course he got sacked and rightly so. But he didn't get arrested.

Companies are well within their rights to discipline (and terminate) employees who make a public disgrace of themselves.

I've a clause in my contract about bringing my employer into disrepute - its totally standard.

Same as that woman in New York who rang 911 on a black man who asked her to put her dog on a lead and alleged that he was threatening her life. She also got sacked. Was it anything to do with her job? No. Did she make a public disgrace of herself and reflect beyond poorly on anyone associated wiht her? Absolutely.

SozBbz · 29-06-2020 5:53pm

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Which conveniently enough s every White person alive today. And only White people.

You're being hysterical.

If you're not racist, then BLM is no threat to you.

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 5:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Citations. please..

Wow, so you are saying that you are unware of racial profiling in the US?

It seems your opinions originate from a position of ignorance.

How about the state attorney being pulled over for no reason?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FEPDJnyTcY

How about a DR treating homeless people being handcuffed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxebsmN_t4M

How about two men being pulled over because they went shopping?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0EHWgR6yVU

How about a man being attacked by police while he sits on the porch of his house?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nir_iY01PpE

How about a student having a gun pulled on him because he is picking up rubbish outside his dorm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9SZlypyK-4

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 6:00pm

Mr. Karate wrote: »

What rights do Whites have but they don't?

The right to not be harassed or shot, top of my head.

SozBbz · 29-06-2020 6:01pm

Anyhow, I'm off out into the real world.

For those of you who aren't too fragile to read it, this is an interesting article. I find it interesting in how it mirrors much of the rhetoric that we've seen in this thread.

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-sociologist-examines-the-white-fragility-that-prevents-white-americans-from-confronting-racism

29-06-2020 6:02pm

SozBbz wrote: »

This point is not constrained to black people - there are plenty of deprived communities in Dublin or Ireland more generally that are largely white or majority white, that destroy lots of infrastructure. But saying that further investment is pointless is just how ghettos get created and perpetuated and you'd be condemning future generations.

Except that we are (I assume) talking about the US and the lack of services that most Black communities have. The case could be made since there has been such destruction of services, and the inability to bring in external workforces due to the crime and racism (directed towards the external employees).

This is not about condemning anyone. This is about identifying what are the real problems that contribute to the overall situation. Discrimination and racism against the Black communities is definitely a factor. However, Black culture with it's focus on negative or anti-social behavior is another factor.

If you are unwilling or unable to recognise the importance of looking at all the factors equally, then you're not really seeking to resolve the problem. Simply expecting the lives of Black people to improve because discrimination stops, is unrealistic since they would still have a youth culture that praises criminals, murderers, etc

I find it amazing that people can't see that inputs define outputs in most cases, unless theres intervention. If society creates all these disenfranchised people who feel like they're nothing to lose and their life isnt worth much anyway.... and then act surprised when these same people behave like people who don't value their lives? Its perfectly foreseeable.

Naturally. When you box in the behaviors to certain parameters that don't reflect reality.

I know there are middle class and even wealthy black people -obviously there are, but is there a proportionate number? We know there isn't.

What is that proportionate number? Is there an acceptable one considering the difference in populations between black, white, Hispanic and Asian populations? Are are you looking for complete parity?

How do you explain how many people of colour are in prison in the US relative to the overall population?

I don't need to... it's been done to death over dozens of threads, and millions of articles. You seem to think that I'm saying that Black people have a wonderful life, and don't experience discrimination or racism.... I don't.

Not everyone has all that and we know those that don't tend to have worse outcomes.

Sure... No idea how it relates to what we're discussing though. You keep flipping on and off the topic.

29-06-2020 6:05pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Wow, so you are saying that you are unware of racial profiling in the US?

Actually I was looking for statistics relating to those middle and upper class being targeted per your original statement... not individual reports.

And I'm fully aware of racial profiling.

I find the manner of this discussion quite funny because there is the assumption that if you're not agreeing completely with the mainstream posters, then you must be denying that Black people are being targeted. I know they are....

nj27 · 29-06-2020 6:09pm

SozBbz wrote: »

Anyhow, I'm off out into the real world.

For those of you who aren't too fragile to read it, this is an interesting article. I find it interesting in how it mirrors much of the rhetoric that we've seen in this thread.

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-sociologist-examines-the-white-fragility-that-prevents-white-americans-from-confronting-racism

You're going back to the real world are ya? From the article:

Robin DiAngelo has noticed that white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism. Like waves on sand, their reactions form predictable patterns: they will insist that they “were taught to treat everyone the same,” that they are “color-blind,” that they “don’t care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted.” They will point to friends and family members of color, a history of civil-rights activism, or a more “salient” issue, such as class or gender. They will shout and bluster. They will cry.

If somebody acted like that in front of me I would legitimately question their mental health. I have never seen somebody act like that in the face of any accusation, outside of the show to catch a predator maybe.

endacl · 29-06-2020 6:17pm

You know, when I first heard ‘all lives matter’, it seemed like a simple, self-explanatory and reasonable statement to me too. Of course, then I had to go and have a think about it. Why would people have such a reaction to such a simple, self-explanatory and reasonable statement? Who couldn’t agree with that? Of course, I was in, as many people are, a zero-sum mindset. One must negate the other. Which of course, they don’t. I don’t have a problem with BLM because it makes sense. Not as a slogan, so much as a nudge to thinking. If you don’t realise the subtext you’re really not thinking hard enough. And yes, I know. I’m not racist. I’m not part of the problem. However, if I’m not part of the solution, I might as well be.

Also. ‘White lives matter’? Fcuk off. You’re just being an arse, and you know it. It’s not big and it’s not clever.

29-06-2020 6:42pm

nj27 wrote: »

You're going back to the real world are ya? From the article:

Robin DiAngelo has noticed that white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism. Like waves on sand, their reactions form predictable patterns: they will insist that they “were taught to treat everyone the same,” that they are “color-blind,” that they “don’t care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted.” They will point to friends and family members of color, a history of civil-rights activism, or a more “salient” issue, such as class or gender. They will shout and bluster. They will cry.

If somebody acted like that in front of me I would legitimately question their mental health. I have never seen somebody act like that in the face of any accusation, outside of the show to catch a predator maybe.

"The same point was raised by Carlos Lozada of the Washington Post, who writes: "any alternative perspective or counterargument is defeated by the concept itself. Either white people admit their inherent and unending racism and vow to work on their white fragility, in which case DiAngelo was correct in her assessment, or they resist such categorizations or question the interpretation of a particular incident, in which case they are only proving her point"

So... a stacked deck. What a wonderful approach to seeking to promote equality... :rolleyes::D

southstar · 29-06-2020 7:46pm

nj27 wrote: »

You're going back to the real world are ya? From the article:

Robin DiAngelo has noticed that white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism. Like waves on sand, their reactions form predictable patterns: they will insist that they “were taught to treat everyone the same,” that they are “color-blind,” that they “don’t care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted.” They will point to friends and family members of color, a history of civil-rights activism, or a more “salient” issue, such as class or gender. They will shout and bluster. They will cry.

If somebody acted like that in front of me I would legitimately question their mental health. I have never seen somebody act like that in the face of any accusation, outside of the show to catch a predator maybe.

Equally It would be interesting to get DiAngelos take on how black people in turn might reflect on racism within themselves and their own communities ..and perhaps also take a more self critical look at the victim mentality that is peddled so casually and cynically to them.
I'd say you'll see plenty of shouting and bluster alright

Bobblehats · 29-06-2020 7:46pm

See the problem here, when we’re bombarded with such a slogan we think a species is in decline or something what’s the forecast for the population of Africa a couple of billion? Europe maintaining a modest 500 million or so. I should think under those circumstances white lives certainly matter more although neither is particularly in decline. In the case of Africa, far from it in that context an acknowledge that black lives do indeed matter; to a degree but they are becoming all the more dispensable

4068ac1elhodqr · 29-06-2020 8:11pm

Bobblehats wrote: »

See the problem here, when we’re bombarded with such a slogan we think a species is in decline or something what’s the forecast for the population of Africa a couple of billion? Europe maintaining a modest 500 million or so. I should think under those circumstances white lives certainly matter more although neither is particularly in decline. In the case of Africa, far from it in that context an acknowledge that black lives do indeed matter; to a degree but they are becoming all the more dispensable

2.5bn (doubling between now) by 2050 (half of which will be under 25).

EU then still barely 500m, brexland with it's moat drawbridge pulled up, likely too an Italiaxit and Franc-off (-100m). Which leaves U'Ireland as the prime desired fly-to asylum destination, for any English speakers from former britishcolonies.

The EU (areas with good welfare* deals) may well be colonised by Africa (and Asia), if it boils down to a numbers game. *Bear in mind by 2050 automation (wave 3) will be fully complete, with potential for an ai near/super-intelligence making even the most fluent, skilled, educated and experienced of EU workers fit for the scrapheap.

Mr. Karate · 29-06-2020 8:12pm

southstar wrote: »

Equally It would be interesting to get DiAngelos take on how black people in turn might reflect on racism within themselves and their own communities ..and perhaps also take a more self critical look at the victim mentality that is peddled so casually and cynically to them.
I'd say you'll see plenty of shouting and bluster alright

Blacks seem to believe that they are the only group of people to have been persecuted so they're not capable of self reflection when it comes to racism.

briany · 29-06-2020 9:04pm

Mr. Karate wrote: »

IF BLM actually gave a **** about Black Lives then they would be protesting in Chicago 24/7. They'd be condemning the slavery of Blacks in parts of Africa that go on to this day. Never a peep out of them about that. Just lame deflections.

This sounds like a bit of cheap rhetoric to me. If x cause does anything less than address and attempt to solve a massive list of ongoing issues that it could possibly be said to be associated with then it must be hypocritical and therefore phony? My god, it almost sounds like something you could handily use to undermine and discredit almost all protest movements. Nice.

Slowyourrole · 30-06-2020 7:57am

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

BLM are not a good representation of their namesake, I had no time for them when they stormed the stage of a Bernie Sanders address and grabbed the mic of the old man demanding they give them the stage or they will shut down the event and I have not time for them as enter private gated property because they passed it and thought it looked like a nice house they wanted to destroy, at least the home owners were willing to fight back.

When a group says among its goals are "to dismantling capitalism and the patriarchal system, disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure" you know you are not dealing with sound minded people.

If anyone wants the real explanation for the video. A politician released the names and addresses of people who wrote to her about issues. Protestors responded by going to her house to protest outside. The people pointing guns at unarmed protestors simply lived on the route.

GreeBo · 30-06-2020 7:57am

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually I was looking for statistics relating to those middle and upper class being targeted per your original statement... not individual reports.

And I'm fully aware of racial profiling.

I find the manner of this discussion quite funny because there is the assumption that if you're not agreeing completely with the mainstream posters, then you must be denying that Black people are being targeted. I know they are....

So you know they are yet want me to provide statistics?
If black people are targeted them it doesn't matter that they are poor or rich or unemployed or middle class, they are still black so are still targeted.

The narrative I was replying to was that it's their own fault for not having better education or family values, at if that would somehow change the colour of their skin.

sydthebeat · 30-06-2020 8:09am

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Which conveniently enough s every White person alive today. And only White people.

When you have the president of America sharing videos of people giving a one fisted salute shouting "white power, white power".... You know there is a very serious problem

30-06-2020 9:12am

GreeBo wrote: »

So you know they are yet want me to provide statistics?
If black people are targeted them it doesn't matter that they are poor or rich or unemployed or middle class, they are still black so are still targeted.

The narrative I was replying to was that it's their own fault for not having better education or family values, at if that would somehow change the colour of their skin.

Except that I never suggested that anything would change the color of their own skin.... or that the discrimination/racism that exists would stop because of it.

For me, I find that there is complete focus on external problems for BLM and/or the Black communities. Their whole culture is centered around passing all responsibility for their state of existence on to others. Rather than improve themselves through education, and avoidance of trouble, their culture idolizes role-models who have failed education, and have engaged in crime.

For the lives of Black people to improve, Black culture needs to evolve away from the constant victim narrative and take responsibility for their own failings. There's no need to stop talking about police brutality, or racism. It's not one or the other.

GreeBo · 30-06-2020 9:31am

Deleted User wrote: »

Except that I never suggested that anything would change the color of their own skin.... or that the discrimination/racism that exists would stop because of it.

For me, I find that there is complete focus on external problems for BLM and/or the Black communities. Their whole culture is centered around passing all responsibility for their state of existence on to others. Rather than improve themselves through education, and avoidance of trouble, their culture idolizes role-models who have failed education, and have engaged in crime.

For the lives of Black people to improve, Black culture needs to evolve away from the constant victim narrative and take responsibility for their own failings.

So your problem with BLM is that they dont focus on all the other issues within the black community? Why should they? Why does wanting to resolve one issue mean you have to resolve all issues also? This is not how anything is achieved in the world today. If you want to get things done you focus on individual things, you dont try to boil the ocean and achieve nothing.

How can they evolve away from the victim narrative when you yourself agree they are victims of racism and police brutality (amongst other things)? To then say they need to take responsibility is the height of ignorance and victim blaming to the extreme. How do you take responsibility for others being racist towards you exactly?
What failings in the black community are responsible for racism? Do you think these same failings dont exist in the non-black community?

There's no need to stop talking about police brutality, or racism. It's not one or the other.

If its not one or the other, why do you have an issue with BLM focusing on racism and police brutality?

Your posts are very contradictory and frankly all over the place. You blame black people for the racism thats directed at them without a hint of irony.

30-06-2020 9:38am

GreeBo wrote: »

Your posts are very contradictory and frankly all over the place. You blame black people for the racism thats directed at them without a hint of irony.

Look in the mirror, dude.

You responded to my post with a heap of questions which fail to actually consider what I wrote. You're in attack mode, dismissing anything that doesn't match your own narrative. As for consistency, I've stuck to the same points.... the fact that you don't see that, simply shows how little you considered my points before objecting to them.

Perfect example... I didn't "blame black people for the racism thats directed at them". Not even close.

So... before making accusations, perhaps consider your own posting habits. :rolleyes:

paw patrol · 30-06-2020 9:40am

SozBbz wrote: »

I know if I broke the law, I'd reasonably fancy my chances in front of the courts because;
1. I'd present well - educated, well dressed, articulate
2. I know my rights and expect to be treated well and fairly
3. I can afford good legal representation

Thats because I'm a product of my own middle class environment.

Not everyone has all that and we know those that don't tend to have worse outcomes.

this privilege is wealth not race - that is a privilege the only privilege(perhaps political access but that's tied with wealth)

paw patrol · 30-06-2020 9:43am

anybody who uses the phrase "white privilege" is a racist.
Time to start calling out what it is.

ELM327 · 30-06-2020 9:48am

paw patrol wrote: »

anybody who used the phrase "white privilege" is a racist.
Time to start call out what it is.

Agree 100%

SozBbz · 30-06-2020 10:32am

paw patrol wrote: »

this privilege is wealth not race - that is a privilege the only privilege(perhaps political access but that's tied with wealth)

People of a certain race seem to have a emassed a lot of that wealth and privilege over the years though haven't they.

Its like a previous poster said, when people from certain communities have drug issues, its seen as criminal.

When people from more privileged communities get addled of illegal prescription meds, its a healthcare issue.

is_that_so · 30-06-2020 10:40am

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

This is seriously what you're getting from it?!?! They state, both in the video and article, that it doesn't mean that at all but to say that black lives matter just as much as white lives.

Here is the type of thing that never would have happened to a white father and son going on a charity cycle.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/28/black-teenager-on-family-cycle-ride-injured-during-aggressive-police-arrest

Which is where the real problem really lies, in the clear systemic failures. Unfortunately that tends to get lost in the battleground on social media and on the streets where anger and contempt for anyone not sharing the same thinking is often more important than actual solutions.

Sonics2k · 30-06-2020 10:54am

paw patrol wrote: »

anybody who uses the phrase "white privilege" is a racist.
Time to start call out what it is.

Well no, because it's highly contextual. By and large (and in many negative ways) due to general media our Irish society can be influenced by US media and culture.

In Ireland itself, white privilege isn't really a thing in the day to day life, however you can absolutely say class privilege is a thing here.
I'm a middle class guy who presents himself quite well, and frankly have been given a lot more slack when it comes to loans and finance than a fair amount of "lower" class people would.

The concept of white privilege in somewhere like the US is a very real thing, alongside class privilege.

The problem here is that some people (on the left especially) have used the concept of white privilege as a form of weapon, an implication that white = a better life.

In truth white privilege stems more in things like dealing with the police, various justice departments and even employment.

paw patrol · 30-06-2020 10:58am

SozBbz wrote: »

People of a certain race seem to have a emassed a lot of that wealth and privilege over the years though haven't they.

Maybe, maybe not . I dont actually agree though

Take a multiculturial spot like london. There is much foreign wealth of many races.

But in terms of enough wealth to build a multi generational dynasty ? perhaps not , but there aren't many non-white people in the Uk that have roots earlier than the 1960s , so it's too early to judge that.
A rich arab will have more access than a working class white person from Essex. That alone will disproves your point.

SozBbz wrote: »

Its like a previous poster said, when people from certain communities have drug issues, its seen as criminal.
When people from more privileged communities get addled of illegal prescription meds, its a healthcare issue.

everycase is different , the wealthier drug addict can mostly afford it through their own means. the poorer one through crime. then it is crime.
However we see in the courts when middle class people rip off their employer for gambling or drugs - it's seen as crime just as it would be .

30-06-2020 11:03am

Sonics2k wrote: »

In truth white privilege stems more in things like dealing with the police, various justice departments and even employment.

It's racist because it's used almost exclusively towards a single race, ie. white people.

There is no debate about black privilege (which may exist in predominately black populations/communities), Asian privilege, female privilege, etc. In addition it's used as a blanket statement to apply to all White people irrespective of that persons individual circumstances... a hillbilly living out of a caravan with no education and living off casual labor, is still privileged because they're white.

Which is why white privilege is a case of racism... If it was a term that was used in a more balanced way, to describe all races, genders, etc then it might have more use, although even there, it's encouraging stereotyping, which is considered racist.

GreeBo · 30-06-2020 11:05am

Deleted User wrote: »

Perfect example... I didn't "blame black people for the racism thats directed at them". Not even close.

So... before making accusations, perhaps consider your own posting habits. :rolleyes:

So when you said

Deleted User wrote:

Black culture needs to evolve away from the constant victim narrative and take responsibility for their own failings.

What exactly did you mean? Why did you bring it up in response to racism?

Sonics2k · 30-06-2020 11:07am

Deleted User wrote: »

It's racist because it's used almost exclusively towards a single race, ie. white people.

There is no debate about black privilege (which may exist in predominately black populations/communities), Asian privilege, female privilege, etc. In addition it's used as a blanket statement to apply to all White people irrespective of that persons individual circumstances... a hillbilly living out of a caravan with no education and living off casual labor, is still privileged because they're white.

Which is why white privilege is a case of racism... If it was a term that was used in a more balanced way, to describe all races, genders, etc then it might have more use, although even there, it's encouraging stereotyping, which is considered racist.

I mean, I did literally highlight that class privilege is a thing but it seems you chose to ignore that? And also 100% ignored the point I was making of what white privilege is in an American context.

30-06-2020 11:13am

GreeBo wrote: »

What exactly did you mean? Why did you bring it up in response to racism?

"For me, I find that there is complete focus on external problems for BLM and/or the Black communities. Their whole culture is centered around passing all responsibility for their state of existence on to others. Rather than improve themselves through education, and avoidance of trouble, their culture idolizes role-models who have failed education, and have engaged in crime."

It's worth considering the whole post... generally you'll find the answer in a previous paragraph.

You want to make the whole debate solely about racism... I'm more interested in the complete situation.

30-06-2020 11:16am

Sonics2k wrote: »

I mean, I did literally highlight that class privilege is a thing but it seems you chose to ignore that? And also 100% ignored the point I was making of what white privilege is in an American context.

White privilege is a term. You didn't start by talking about privilege, you started in response to "white privilege" and went from there.

The point being that you didn't consider white privilege to be racist, whereas I do.

ELM327 · 30-06-2020 11:22am

Deleted User wrote: »

White privilege is a term. You didn't start by talking about privilege, you started in response to "white privilege" and went from there.

The point being that you didn't consider white privilege to be racist, whereas I do.

"White Privilege" is a racist term used by some black people and some lefty loon whites.
You don't get privilege by being white. Warren buffet is white, as are the majority of homeless people/people living below the poverty line in the US.

I never owned any slaves, you (as a black person in this analogy) were never a slave. I'm not going to apologize for being white. I'm as entitled to be proudly white as you are proud to be black.

GreeBo · 30-06-2020 11:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

You want to make the whole debate solely about racism... I'm more interested in the complete situation.

Fantastic, but perhaps take that to a general black people thread rather than derail the one about the BLM movement? (Which in case you don't know, is the Movement to fight for Freedom, Liberation and Justice)

If you want to blame black people for not bettering themselves, go start your own thread.

I'd also point out the fact that many, many white cultural icons have engaged in crime and have minimal education.

30-06-2020 11:30am

GreeBo wrote: »

Fantastic, but perhaps take that to a general black people thread rather than derail the one about the BLM movement? (Which in case you don't know, is the Movement to fight for Freedom, Liberation and Justice)

I know what the name stands for, I've looked at their mandate, and the various websites dedicated to their aims.

And I'll continue posting to this thread... you don't need to respond to my posts.

If you want to blame black people for not bettering themselves, go start your own thread.

Blame? Rather suggestive.... which is the point of using the word. As I said before, you're in attack stance against whatever doesn't fit with your own narrative.

I'd also point out the fact that many, many white cultural icons have engaged in crime and have minimal education.

True. Although they're a distinct minority. Can you say the same about Black cultural Icons?

southstar · 30-06-2020 12:02pm

It seems to me that the term white privilege is simply lazy, crude and and self serving.. Pursuing this lack of nuance we could all rail on about male,straight,youth,European,American please insert category privilege and blather on endlessly with this tripe.I could cite affirmative action as black privelage.I could point out to the noticeable lack of reaction to a video posted near the start of this thread depicting a white man being savagely beaten and robbed by a black mob...a cowardly hate crime as you'll ever see..no response here...no big media reaction...privilege or what...just gormless hypocrisy .I don't doubt racism exists but it's become a bandwagon for many deluded ,lazy and cynical players.....a veritable Bonfire of the Vanities as Tom Wolfe's 1980s novel describes

SozBbz · 30-06-2020 12:41pm

paw patrol wrote: »

A rich arab will have more access than a working class white person from Essex. That alone will disproves your point.

.

For goodness sake, this is beyond ridiculous.

Tell me where I said that the poorest white person is richer than the richest person of colour? So in what way does it disprove my point?

Globally, the average white person is richer than the average black person. Surely you get that. A few rich foreigners buying up property in London does not alter that fact.

ELM327 · 30-06-2020 12:46pm

SozBbz wrote: »

For goodness sake, this is beyond ridiculous.

Tell me where I said that the poorest white person is richer than the richest person of colour? So in what way does it disprove my point?

Globally, the average white person is richer than the average black person. Surely you get that. A few rich foreigners buying up property in London does not alter that fact.

If being a person of color was an inherent discrimination and didnt allow you to have wealth, then there would be no rich black people, no rich arabs, etc

SozBbz · 30-06-2020 12:48pm

southstar wrote: »

It seems to me that the term white privilege is simply lazy, crude and and self serving.. Pursuing this lack of nuance we could all rail on about male,straight,youth,European,American please insert category privilege and blather on endlessly with this tripe.I could cite affirmative action as black privelage.I could point out to the noticeable lack of reaction to a video posted near the start of this thread depicting a white man being savagely beaten and robbed by a black mob...a cowardly hate crime as you'll ever see..no response here...no big media reaction...privilege or what...just gormless hypocrisy .I don't doubt racism exists but it's become a bandwagon for many deluded ,lazy and cynical players.....a veritable Bonfire of the Vanities as Tom Wolfe's 1980s novel describes

It seems to me that people who lack the basic empathy and humility to examine their own view of the world are part of the problem.

For the slow learners - no one supporting BLM on this thread ever said that black people cannot or do not commit crime. People of all races commit crimes, including violent crimes.

BLM is specifically advocating for justice when crime is committed by the Police, who are in a position of both legal and moral authority and should be held to a higher standard. Time and again, we see the police playing fast and loose with this power and authority, and black people suffering for that. The police are publicly funded so I don't see any issue with members of the public demanding accountability. The fact that somewhere, somehow a black person or persons beat up a white person, does not change that black people are disproportionately victims of police brutality in the US.

El_Duderino 09 · 30-06-2020 1:11pm

tonycascarino wrote: »

BLM rubbish has gone way over the top now at this stage. If anything, more normal thinking people will turn against it such is the way it is rammed down our throats on a daily basis.

People, like yourself, who would be predisposed to opposing BLM anyway, will be looking for an excuse to be turned off. But those same people were "turned off" by the initial protests, then they were turned off anew by the suggestion of taking down statues, then again by actually taking down statues, then for a brief while everyone seemed to agree that the Colston statue should be taken (after it had been taken down) but we're totally turned off by the OTT way BLM did it. Then they were turned off by suggestions that they should take down any other statues. Then they were turned off by the removing media with racist connotations.

So what exactly has turned you off the movement afresh this time? And is it worth considering that peope who keep being turned off the movent at every turn were actually only in favour of BLM as long as they didn't achieve any actual change? They were never in favour in practice so they're not exactly any loss to the movement.

GreeBo · 30-06-2020 1:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I know what the name stands for, I've looked at their mandate, and the various websites dedicated to their aims.

And I'll continue posting to this thread... you don't need to respond to my posts.

So then you are guilty of the same whataboutery as the WLM or ALM groups. You are taking away from the purpose of BLM.

Blame? Rather suggestive.... which is the point of using the word. As I said before, you're in attack stance against whatever doesn't fit with your own narrative.

If not blame, what do you mean by "Their whole culture is centered around passing all responsibility for their state of existence on to others."

True. Although they're a distinct minority. Can you say the same about Black cultural Icons?

Does that in anyway impact the racism black people are experiencing?
I'd also argue that a huge number of black icons are sports people, you seem to be focussing on rappers I'm guessing?

GreeBo · 30-06-2020 1:36pm

ELM327 wrote: »

If being a person of color was an inherent discrimination and didnt allow you to have wealth, then there would be no rich black people, no rich arabs, etc

What if it just makes it much, much harder than it is for white people?

weldoninhio · 30-06-2020 1:48pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Its an equality movement, all they are looking for is black lives to matter as much as white lives already do.

Have you actually read their manifesto and aims?? I don't think you have, and therefore you, and the likes of you, are useful idiots for them.

weldoninhio · 30-06-2020 1:51pm

GreeBo wrote: »

How does that draw attention to the fact that currently, black lives demonstrably don't matter as much as white lives do?

What do you think needs to change for lives other than black lives to make them matter more? Is it even possible to make white lives matter more? Who is suppressing your white lives at the moment?

I would say the complete opposite. Every time a black person is murdered by a cop it makes headline news and there are riots and political handwringing.

Doesn't happen every time a cop shoots a white person, which happens a lot more.

The Raging Bile Duct · 30-06-2020 1:53pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Have you actually read their manifesto and aims?? I don't think you have, and therefore you, and the likes of you, are useful idiots for them.

Are you talking about the ten point manfesto in relation to policing and oversight? What am I missing in it that's so dangerous?

30-06-2020 1:58pm

GreeBo wrote: »

So then you are guilty of the same whataboutery as the WLM or ALM groups. You are taking away from the purpose of BLM.

How did I take away from the purpose of BLM? Yeah... I didn't.

It's completely pointless discussing anything with you because you insist on inserting crap that I haven't said, and the seeking to argue your own inserted crap.

AbusesToilets · 30-06-2020 2:15pm

SozBbz wrote: »

It seems to me that people who lack the basic empathy and humility to examine their own view of the world are part of the problem.

For the slow learners - no one supporting BLM on this thread ever said that black people cannot or do not commit crime. People of all races commit crimes, including violent crimes.

BLM is specifically advocating for justice when crime is committed by the Police, who are in a position of both legal and moral authority and should be held to a higher standard. Time and again, we see the police playing fast and loose with this power and authority, and black people suffering for that. The police are publicly funded so I don't see any issue with members of the public demanding accountability. The fact that somewhere, somehow a black person or persons beat up a white person, does not change that black people are disproportionately victims of police brutality in the US.

The problem with that view is that it ignores the statistics that show all people are affected by this, it's not exclusive or unique to the black community. For any of the high profile deaths involving a black person, you can find a corresponding one for a white person.

There are absolutely a wide swath of interlocking issues that need addressing in the US, that conspire to keep poor masses in their boxes. Any person with an interest in a fair and just society should be supportive of that.

BLM, as an organisation ,is not about simply advocating for an equal society. It is about pushing black issues to the front, about positioning "Blackness" to the top of the social ladder. In the general competition of society, that's not in and of itself a negative aspiration. Any community or social group is going to wish for success for themselves. However, trying to portray "Whiteness" as a bad thing, framing white people as the source of all ills is horse ****.

Theirs is a language of division, of denigration. I don't support that.

Geuze · 30-06-2020 2:24pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Its an equality movement, all they are looking for is black lives to matter as much as white lives already do.

Am I reading the correct website?

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

Is this the correct organisation?

I will highlight below what most sensible people reject:

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

NIMAN · 30-06-2020 2:27pm

I find this a very strange study to have done.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0630/1150450-english-tv-commentary-shows-racial-bias-study-claims/

BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

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