Beef, farming, rural Ireland...are their complaints legitimate?

Donald Trump · 17-09-2019 6:07pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Consumers need to pay more for beef. It's obviously too cheap at the moment. I would happily pay more for it if it goes to the farmer that is not the supermarket

A problem in general with agricultural produce is that the large supermarkets suddenly decide that thet want to run a promotion etc. so they demand their suppliers give them cut price produce. The suppliers then push this cut down onto the farmers.
The farmers have grown/reared the product. It needs to be harvested/killed now. They have spent the money growing it but that is a sunk cost.

To take a little bit of a sidestep and return to my milk creamery example above. An analogy might be if there were only a handful of employers in Dublin employing all the people. And if all operated a scheme where you had to sign up to work exclusively for them (or not work at all) for the next 5 years and that they would pay 50c an hour above their "base price". And imagine too that there was no minimum wage. Do you think that such a system would be allowed to persist? why not let the Dublin workers compete for their hourly wages against the global prices/levels of income?

jmayo · 17-09-2019 6:31pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I think a lot of problems go back to the planning of one off housing instead of living in villages or near villages in small clusters. The reliance on the car is what has killed pubs and post offices. If people lived and shopped in the villages then they wouldn't be dying. Instead they choose bigger houses and driving everywhere. Broadband would be a lot easier to provide to ten houses then to one.

Not this shyte again.

Do you do your big weekly shop in your small corner shop or do you go to the nearest big Tesco, Dunnes, Lidl, Aldi, Supervalu ?

Do you fook I would bet. :rolleyes:

So why do you expect rural people to shop in the local centra, spar, etc ?

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I think its very sad actually, what happens when your children grow up and move to a city, you are just left rattling round a huge old house on your own and you can't even go for a pint because you live too far away. the countryside is dying and cars are a big part of that. If you live near others you can use a bike to go to the post office or walk.

It is not alone car, but what you said yourself or didn't actually outright say.
People move away and people now mostly often just live in the countryside.
One man can now farm a few hundred acres whereas years ago it was labour intensive.
Men, and indeed women, were needed for lots of local jobs associated with the farming.
You had local blacksmiths, cart makers, joiners, carpenters, coopers, tailors, seamstresses all providing goods and services to the local communities.
These have either been replaced by global consumer goods or totally gone altogether.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

In France and the UK the rural settlement is much more village based and is much nicer for it. I don't see why a farmer needs to live right on the farm in all cases. Whatever about the farmer, I don't see why all his kids need to.

Trust me you find loads of people living in small villages in Uk that commute to nearest town for work.
And you find loads of villages in France that are also dying.
It is not some fooking ideal out of Midsummer Murders or a tourist part of France.

And the kids live at home or near home because that is where they grew up, that may be where their elderly parents live and because they might not be able to afford a fooking shyte shoebox in a miserable estate in one of our big cities.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

However as a city dweller I am a monster for bringing this up, how dare I the countryside is not for me, its for the people who live in it. how date I comment on the view and how could you live in a tiny little box, etc, etc.

When its gone though and Ireland is filled with old empty mc mansions and holiday homes we are going to miss having a countryside.

You can comment all you want, but try not always talk down to people.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It feels like they all think they have a God given right to earn loads of money from keeping cattle. Even if it means the tax payer propping them up.
Then people talk about paying them to do other stuff with the land. Why should we? Not all of us eat beef and dairy.
I struggle financially sometimes but I've changed career over the years. No job is secure these days, I'm sick to death listening to them.

Fooks sake here we go again.
Ever thought some of us might be sick to death listening to you ?

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Right but don't we export 90% of beef and dairy? If we only produced enough for our own people maybe propping them up wouldn't cost so much and it wouldn't be a problem.
I don't eat beef but I can never understand how a can of beer or a packet of asparagus costs the same as a steak. They require far less time and resources to produce. I think we just produce way too much of it.

Maybe you should tell Guinness and Irish distillers to just produce enough for the home market :rolleyes:

Hell tell Microsoft or Intel the same.

And then tell the farmers in wherever that grows the vegetables or soya for you that you don't deserve their exports.

Thelonious Monk · 17-09-2019 6:43pm

Microsoft, Intel, and Guinness aren't in the papers every day whinging. I would say farmers should try and do something else for a living but I've seen them shouting vegan at Leo and yeah, they probably aren't fit for much more than working on farms.
I love how you take such an interest in my posts jmayo with your busy farm life and all x.

17-09-2019 6:56pm

I’ve been buying all my meat from a couple of local butchers. They buy off small slaughter houses.

My brother is law has a small farm and also works in one of the large meat processing factories being picketed. He was laid off last week but is 100% behind the farmers protesting.

endainoz · 17-09-2019 7:35pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Microsoft, Intel, and Guinness aren't in the papers every day whinging. I would say farmers should try and do something else for a living but I've seen them shouting vegan at Leo and yeah, they probably aren't fit for much more than working on farms.
I love how you take such an interest in my posts jmayo with your busy farm life and all x.

Your post is so ignorant, it's really not worth the time to disect

Green&Red · 17-09-2019 7:38pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

they probably aren't fit for much more than working on farms.

Classy

endainoz · 17-09-2019 7:41pm

Green&Red wrote: »

Classy

Yup that's the attitudes we have to deal with. In their eyes farming is a job for uneducated idiots because all we do is give out about vegans and pollute the environment and don't know any better.

Reeks of the pale off that lad.

_Brian · 17-09-2019 7:41pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Microsoft, Intel, and Guinness aren't in the papers every day whinging. I would say farmers should try and do something else for a living but I've seen them shouting vegan at Leo and yeah, they probably aren't fit for much more than working on farms.
I love how you take such an interest in my posts jmayo with your busy farm life and all x.

Funny there were always people giving out about the amount of farmers kids going to college, reason being they wanted a better life for their kids.

Lots of farmers I know (and it’s my daily job to work with them) are encouraging their kids away from farming as it offers such a poor lifestyle.

It’s pretty ignorant post above to generalise about farmers like that, shows a narrow dim mind behind the post.

Green&Red · 17-09-2019 8:15pm

_Brian wrote: »

It’s pretty ignorant post above to generalise about farmers like that, shows a narrow dim mind behind the post.

It’s one of the most ignorant posts I’ve seen on boards

jammiedodgers · 17-09-2019 11:46pm

Don't bother responding to him, this is probably the only bit of attention he gets in his life.

whisky_galore · 18-09-2019 9:07am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

they probably aren't fit for much more than working on farms.

You wouldn't last a day of work on a farm.

jmayo · 18-09-2019 10:44am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Microsoft, Intel, and Guinness aren't in the papers every day whinging. I would say farmers should try and do something else for a living but I've seen them shouting vegan at Leo and yeah, they probably aren't fit for much more than working on farms.
I love how you take such an interest in my posts jmayo with your busy farm life and all x.

Did I say I was a farmer ?

You know what they say about people making assumptions.

As jammiedodgers reminds us, maybe you just are looking for a bit of attention.

Thelonious Monk · 18-09-2019 11:44am

jmayo wrote: »

Did I say I was a farmer ?

You know what they say about people making assumptions.

As jammiedodgers reminds us, maybe you just are looking for a bit of attention.

No, I sometimes have too much time on my hands, I'll admit that.
I assumed you were a farmer given you show up in every thread about farming and one off housing. Same way you assume I'm a liberal fairy vegan from the city.

Muahahaha · 18-09-2019 12:08pm

So where is the protest heading to now? Seems the farmers are split with some wanting to get back to normal but others wanting to continue the protest? Its a leaderless movement so its hard to gauge where this is going

Buford T. Justice XIX · 18-09-2019 12:40pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

So where is the protest heading to now? Seems the farmers are split with some wanting to get back to normal but others wanting to continue the protest? Its a leaderless movement so its hard to gauge where this is going

A good few will stay on the blockades in different areas, they're right in saying the solutions offered will be wiped out overnight by a cut in base price.

Muahahaha · 18-09-2019 2:25pm

Is the current base price still €3.40kg? What price are they seeking? Politicians seem to be urging them to drop the protest and to 'put on the green jersey' :rolleyes:

GS11 · 18-09-2019 2:51pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Consumers need to pay more for beef. It's obviously too cheap at the moment. I would happily pay more for it if it goes to the farmer that is not the supermarket

Maybe it's a bit too simple but I think that's the solution, might be a problem for exports I suppose.

We are currently subsidising a product that is bad for the environment and our health.

If people want to eat beef, pay the price, let the market find it's level.
Let the farmers grow the products we need, potatoes, veg, far better to subsidise that.

jam_mac_jam · 18-09-2019 2:54pm

GS11 wrote: »

Maybe it's a bit too simple but I think that's the solution, might be a problem for exports I suppose.

We are currently subsidising a product that is bad for the environment and our health.

If people want to eat beef, pay the price, let the market find it's level.
Let the farmers grow the products we need, potatoes, veg, far better to subsidise that.

For exports we need to market it as a premium product, which it is.

You can't grow veg on all land though so that's not always the solution to grow veg or potatoes.

Also, I don't think its for you to say what foods we do and don't need. People want to eat beef, they like it.
We don't live in a communist country where only what we need is produced. We are allowed eat what we like.

Geuze · 18-09-2019 2:57pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Consumers need to pay more for beef. It's obviously too cheap at the moment. I would happily pay more for it if it goes to the farmer that is not the supermarket

I don't think the retail price is too low.

I think processor profits like Goodman's 170m are too high.

markodaly · 19-09-2019 1:49pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

See above. Farmers do not have access to "new markets". Milk producers are generally signed into contracts with their milk factory.

You mean a Co-OP, which the farmers are also shareholders of?
If a farmer has a stake in a Co-Op, which then sells its milk to new markets by extension the farmer has access to new markets.

Even today, with the likes of Glanbia and Kerry Group, farmers own huge stakes in these companies. Sure, where do they get their milk from? These farmers have a vote on such matters in their Co-Ops.

Lazy soundbyte. Hospitals/post-offices close in large towns and relatively large urban centres outside of Dublin. This shite about 1-off housing being the root of all evil is just that - shite

One off housing is arguably the biggest **** up we have done in terms of regional development. Don't want rural isolation, nonexistent services, paying more for some services like water? Then cluster your development and housing needs in towns and villages rather than continuing the ribbon development like its still the 19th century.

Other European counties do not develop their countrysides like this, for very very good reason.

Rural people complain about dying villages, post offices and the like, yet they are more than happy to drive their deisal car to the large town for their day to day business.

Anyone who argues for loose planning laws in favor of one-off housing is a Jackie Healy Rae cap-wearing idiot. It costs the taxpayer and society more in the long run.

The simple fact is that the current system is unsustainable. The factory owners are happy to kill the golden goose and get their money now. But the farmers cannot be expected to continue to produce at a loss. The problem is that it can take, say, 2.5 years to rear an animal. It's not something that you can turn on and off like a tap. And when they are ready to be processed, they have to be done.

How many overall beef farmers produce at a loss? From the figures I saw, about 1/3 produce at a loss, while the rest do and can make a profit from it. It could simply mean that their farms are either too small or too inefficient in today's world.

The sugar in your press used to grow in Ireland but now it is imported. That industry went to the wall about a decade ago but you might not be aware of it because it was not as large as beef industry. It just vanished.

Why did it vanish? Was it because sugar was produced much cheaper elsewhere?
This is the part and parcel of globalisation. Farmers really cannot complain about it as over 90% of their products are sold exported

Donald Trump · 20-09-2019 3:35pm

markodaly wrote: »

You mean a Co-OP, which the farmers are also shareholders of?
If a farmer has a stake in a Co-Op, which then sells its milk to new markets by extension the farmer has access to new markets.

Even today, with the likes of Glanbia and Kerry Group, farmers own huge stakes in these companies. Sure, where do they get their milk from? These farmers have a vote on such matters in their Co-Ops.

I don't think you know what your own point is here.

markodaly wrote: »

One off housing is arguably the biggest **** up we have done in terms of regional development. Don't want rural isolation, nonexistent services, paying more for some services like water? Then cluster your development and housing needs in towns and villages rather than continuing the ribbon development like its still the 19th century.

Other European counties do not develop their countrysides like this, for very very good reason.

Rural people complain about dying villages, post offices and the like, yet they are more than happy to drive their deisal car to the large town for their day to day business.

Anyone who argues for loose planning laws in favor of one-off housing is a Jackie Healy Rae cap-wearing idiot. It costs the taxpayer and society more in the long run.

Talking through your hole in fairness. One-off housing must be the reason there are f-all facilities in the likes of Balbriggan and Blanchardstown, or the reason why Darndale doesn't have much. Must be all the one-off houses they build there..........

markodaly wrote: »

How many overall beef farmers produce at a loss? From the figures I saw, about 1/3 produce at a loss, while the rest do and can make a profit from it. It could simply mean that their farms are either too small or too inefficient in today's world.

See above regarding talking through ones hole.

markodaly wrote: »

Why did it vanish? Was it because sugar was produced much cheaper elsewhere?
This is the part and parcel of globalisation. Farmers really cannot complain about it as over 90% of their products are sold exported

What do you do? How much does your employer pay you to do it? Why can your employer not bring in an Indian to do a better job than you for 10% or 20% of the cost? I mean, we're all about globalisation and race to the bottom.

I referenced the 1913 lockout in a previous post. Employers were arguing then that the employees had to accept what they were given because there were plenty of others willing to take their place. This appears to be similar to what you are advocating now. So I'll ask you - do you think society would be better off if that kind of scenario where the employers had all the power was allowed to persist? You have short term selfish reasons for wanting what you want now without realising the implications.

Let me ask you now - given that you apparently (and incorrectly btw) think sugar was produced much cheaper elsewhere, how much per kg has it fallen in the shops for you?

Thelonious Monk · 20-09-2019 3:41pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Talking through your hole in fairness. One-off housing must be the reason there are f-all facilities in the likes of Balbriggan and Blanchardstown, or the reason why Darndale doesn't have much. Must be all the one-off houses they build there..........

Darndale doesn't have facilities? You can walk to pretty much any facility I can think of from Darndale in no time.
Blanch and Balbriggan also have plenty of things going on.

Donald Trump · 20-09-2019 3:45pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Darndale doesn't have facilities? You can walk to pretty much any facility I can think of from Darndale in no time.
Blanch and Balbriggan also have plenty of things going on.

You've obviously have not visited Balbriggan in a long time......if ever Blanchardstown.......maybe you took a trip to the shopping centre

Thelonious Monk · 20-09-2019 3:46pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

You've obviously have not visited Balbriggan in a long time......if ever Blanchardstown.......maybe you took a trip to the shopping centre

One of my best friends lives there, I go up there regularly. What do you think Balbriggan is lacking? I have cousins in Blanch and was out there a lot as a kid. Their part was a total kip but you could still walk to any number of facilities nearby.

Donald Trump · 20-09-2019 3:48pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

One of my best friends lives there, I go up there regularly. What do you think Balbriggan is lacking? I have cousins in Blanch and was out there a lot as a kid. Their part was a total kip but you could still walk to any number of facilities nearby.

How many of the nice restaurants in Balbriggan have you visited on your trips there? Some nice cafes where you can go and relax etc. Half the main street is boarded up FFS

(Patiently waiting while you frantically google....and probably come back with a few chippers and fast food places)

Edit: While you are at it, what does your friend do for work in Balbriggan? Likelihood is they don't work there and commute elsewhere. They probably live there, but work and shop and socialize elsewhere.....even though they might not live in a one-off house. Because the pother poster apparently implied that one off housing causes those kinds of behaviours.......

Thelonious Monk · 20-09-2019 3:50pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

How many of the nice restaurants in Balbriggan have you visited on your trips there? Some nice cafes where you can go and relax etc. Half the main street is boarded up FFS

(Patiently waiting while you frantically google....and probably come back with a few chippers and fast food places)

I've only been to pubs there and had breakfast out a couple of times.
I don't know where you're going with this. It's not my favourite part of Dublin but it's grand, and short train journey to Dublin.

So what is lacking in Darndale and Blanchardstown that you can't walk or cycle to in no time?

Donald Trump · 20-09-2019 3:54pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've only been to pubs there and had breakfast out a couple of times.
I don't know where you're going with this. It's not my favourite part of Dublin but it's grand, and short train journey to Dublin.

So what is lacking in Darndale and Blanchardstown that you can't walk or cycle to in no time?

Apparently one-off housing is the cause of villages and towns decaying......but there is a large urban centre, in Co. Dublin, well connected by motorway, train and bus...yet is still suffering those problems.........but but I thought the other fella said it was one-off houses that caused those problems???? I'm confused now. Either that or he was talking out his hole

All there really is in Balbriggan btw are a few pubs, fast food places and betting shops. Of course there are some other things but not what you'd expect for a town of its size

markodaly · 20-09-2019 3:58pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

I don't think you know what your own point is here.

Many of the producers of Milk, are owned or part owned by farmers. Simple

Talking through your hole in fairness. One-off housing must be the reason there are f-all facilities in the likes of Balbriggan and Blanchardstown, or the reason why Darndale doesn't have much. Must be all the one-off houses they build there..........

Strawman, well done on that. I can tell you that even in urban areas of socio-economic difficulty, they will have more access to local services than the half dozen houses up on some random hill, in ballygobackwards.

Again, the point stands. No one seriously thinks that continuing the policy of building one-off housing in rural areas is good for anyone in the long run. Its a terrible terrible way to develop and plan rural regeneration.

If you want to argue for it, then please show me some peer-reviewed research or policy papers that shows the opposite, rather than insulting the poster.

What do you do? How much does your employer pay you to do it? Why can your employer not bring in an Indian to do a better job than you for 10% or 20% of the cost? I mean, we're all about globalisation and race to the bottom.

I am a self-employed ICT contractor, arguably one of the most fluid, agile and global industries we have. I get paid more because I can deliver more value to the business. I regularly update my skills and what I know an can do. What I did 10 years or even 5 years ago is very different to what I do know and I expect what I do in 5 years to be different again.

Just because someone inherits a piece of land and their grandfather were beef farmers does not give one a god-given right to ply their trade in agriculture. If that triggers you, too bad.

Let me ask you now - given that you apparently (and incorrectly btw) think sugar was produced much cheaper elsewhere, how much per kg has it fallen in the shops for you?

I don't bake, so I don't have a notion and besides, sugar is bad for you. We need and should be consuming less of it. If the Irish sugar industry was still viable and making money then we would still have it, like Irish textiles or basket weaving or blacksmiths.

jam_mac_jam · 20-09-2019 4:14pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Apparently one-off housing is the cause of villages and towns decaying......but there is a large urban centre, in Co. Dublin, well connected by motorway, train and bus...yet is still suffering those problems.........but but I thought the other fella said it was one-off houses that caused those problems???? I'm confused now. Either that or he was talking out his hole

All there really is in Balbriggan btw are a few pubs, fast food places and betting shops. Of course there are some other things but not what you'd expect for a town of its size

One off housing is one of the reasons for towns decaying.

I live in Blanch, so I can reply on that example. I walk around the corner to my local butcher, I can walk to the post office, I can walk to the pub so I support these local places. I also spend my money far away in a supermarket or in Dublin centre.

Living in a town is not the be all and end all. Some people like to live in cities some people would hate it.

I am suggesting that one off housing and the reliance on the car has hurt the countryside, particularly for small business like the pub and the post office. You don't have to live in a shoebox, you can have a nice big house beside other big houses where it is easy to provide services like broadband.

Obviously there are other reasons, such as globalization, the decrease in wages for farmers, rising costs are also contributing.

Are you honestly saying with a straight face that it does not contribute?

jam_mac_jam · 20-09-2019 4:27pm

In answer to faculties in Blanch, also you picked a bad example in Dublin for despite its faults, it does have a library, college, aquatic center, pubs, restaurants, shopping centre, schools, community centres churches, Gaa club, rubgy club, outdoor soccer pitches, diving lessons, trains, buses, cinema.

And yes there are working class areas (before the inevitable slagging it off) in it but its plenty of facilities.

Beef, farming, rural Ireland...are their complaints legitimate?

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