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EU261 claim rejected

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  • 08-08-2019 10:25am
    #1
    andrew1977
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭


    Hi

    I posted this in the travel forum, perhaps its better here, apologies if not.

    Flight arrival time ex Dublin was subject to a delay of 4 hours 11 minutes as confirmed by the airline

    I submitted my claim for EU261 compensation and it has been rejected due to the reason being an extraordinary event
    "due to an earlier flight disruption as a result of foreign object, which caused a knock-on effect to the daily schedule of the aircraft.

    However this is a complete lie, our flight boarded on time, moved away from the stand and within 2 minutes the flight went technical.

    The captain announced this to all the passengers that we had a technical issue and engineers would take 1 hour to repair, the attempted repair failed and the replacement part they used turned out also to be faulty, again the captain announced this.
    After sitting on the plane for 2.5 hours, they took us off the flight back to the terminal and eventually put us on a replacement craft , again which was delayed moving.

    I have submitted my appeal to the aviation authority for review.

    Can the airline really give me a false reply like that ? And have I any chance of recourse with the airline regulator ?

    The airline have 100% given me a false reply .

    Thank you.


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    #2
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,155 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    Yeah just chase it up and you’ll get your comp.
    The airline are either trying to intentionally fob you or have genuinely made a mistake and are mixing your case up with another flight.
    Anyway if you chase it you’ll eventually get your payment


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    #3
    andrew1977
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭andrew1977


    Thanks, let see what the aviation regulator comes back with .

    The reply I got from the airline is completely inaccurate , I replied back to them querying it again , I got told " that's it, we are not changing our mind, and have nothing further to say to you " , I have followed up with more emails, zero reply,

    We regret the delay of your flight XXX from Dublin - DUB to XXX on the 2019-08-03, which was due to an earlier flight disruption as a result of foreign object, which caused a knock-on effect to the daily schedule of the aircraft.

    As this delay was unexpected we wish to inform you that no compensation is due under EU261/2004 as this was caused due to extraordinary circumstances beyond XXXX control.

    Complete and utter lies, how will the aviation regulator verify I am telling the truth?

    My flight boarded on time, moved away from the stand on time, then went technical and arrival time late by 4 hours 11 minutes, no extra ordinary event whatsoever ?


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    #4
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Knock on isn't even a valid get out anyway


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    #5
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Each flight is separate, so what happened before your flight started to board is not relevant.

    Given they indicated they could fix the issue within an hour indicates the issue wasn't exceptional either.


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    #6
    andrew1977
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭andrew1977


    They have point blank refused to reply to any of my follow up emails now.

    I assume the aviation regulator will knock some sense in them or am I wasting my time ?

    I wouldn't waste my own time if I thought it was pointless, but its a clear blatant lie by the airline.


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    #7
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    andrew1977 wrote: »
    They have point blank refused to reply to any of my follow up emails now.

    I assume the aviation regulator will knock some sense in them or am I wasting my time ?

    I wouldn't waste my own time if I thought it was pointless, but its a clear blatant lie by the airline.

    That's what they're hoping you'll do...


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    #8
    California Dreamer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,517 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    andrew1977 wrote: »
    They have point blank refused to reply to any of my follow up emails now.

    I assume the aviation regulator will knock some sense in them or am I wasting my time ?

    I wouldn't waste my own time if I thought it was pointless, but its a clear blatant lie by the airline.

    Would you like to give me some free money for nothing? Probably not.

    So they roll the dice, deny the claim and you just forget it.

    Now how many think to themselves its not worth and move on. I am sure their insurance company are playing the odds.


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    #9
    andrew1977
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭andrew1977


    So , how do the aviation regulator investigate it for me ? They ask Ryanair for an explanation, they give them the same lie as I got and that's the end of it ?


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    #10
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,155 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    andrew1977 wrote: »
    So , how do the aviation regulator investigate it for me ? They ask Ryanair for an explanation, they give them the same lie as I got and that's the end of it ?

    Have you told them you’ve referred it on ? I would and then do chase it up with the regulator, it may take a few months but you’ll get there.


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    #11
    andrew1977
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭andrew1977


    Locker10a wrote: »
    Have you told them you’ve referred it on ? I would and then do chase it up with the regulator, it may take a few months but you’ll get there.

    Yes I have and they have ignored all emails I have sent them, their most recent reply was below.. unreal ..

    We refer to your recent correspondence dated 07/08/2019.

    Whilst we have noted your dissatisfaction, we regret that our position remains unaltered, as per our previous correspondence.

    We are sorry that we cannot be of further assistance with regards to this matter.

    We hope above clarifies the situation.


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    #12
    charlietheminxx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭charlietheminxx


    Ryanair are very difficult to deal with when it comes to customer services/complaints.

    Have you contacted the regulator yet? Details here:

    Commission for Aviation Regulation
    3rd Floor
    Alexandra House
    Earlsfort Terrace
    Dublin 2

    Tel: (01) 661 1700
    Homepage: http://www.aviationreg.ie
    Homepage: http://www.flightrights.ie
    Email: info@aviationreg.ie

    I would start by giving them a call, explain your concern that Ryanair are denying your eligibility.


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    #13
    andrew1977
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭andrew1977


    charlietheminxx wrote: »
    Ryanair are very difficult to deal with when it comes to customer services/complaints.

    Have you contacted the regulator yet? Details here:

    Commission for Aviation Regulation
    3rd Floor
    Alexandra House
    Earlsfort Terrace
    Dublin 2

    Tel: (01) 661 1700
    Homepage: http://www.aviationreg.ie
    Homepage: http://www.flightrights.ie
    Email: info@aviationreg.ie

    I would start by giving them a call, explain your concern that Ryanair are denying your eligibility.


    Thank you , I have lodged the appeal with the regulator and an automated reply saying they will respond as quickly as they can .

    I know I am 100% in the right here , I will not give up on this and push it as long as it takes it, surely the airline cannot falsify the information if the regulator requests it from then.

    A full plane to London heard all announcements from the captain declaring " technical issue " , " 1 hour to repair ", then " replacement part is faulty " and " a new part will need to be shipped in " , everyone off the flight, wait in the terminal , they put us on a replacement plane which took over 1.5 hours to load and depart .

    How will the regulator prove I am telling the truth ?

    I wouldn't bother chasing it if it was factually incorrect, however their response to me is absolutely lies , no question about it.


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    #14
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    andrew1977 wrote: »
    Thank you , I have lodged the appeal with the regulator and an automated reply saying they will respond as quickly as they can .

    I know I am 100% in the right here , I will not give up on this and push it as long as it takes it, surely the airline cannot falsify the information if the regulator requests it from then.

    A full plane to London heard all announcements from the captain declaring " technical issue " , " 1 hour to repair ", then " replacement part is faulty " and " a new part will need to be shipped in " , everyone off the flight, wait in the terminal , they put us on a replacement plane which took over 1.5 hours to load and depart .

    How will the regulator prove I am telling the truth ?

    I wouldn't bother chasing it if it was factually incorrect, however their response to me is absolutely lies , no question about it.

    There will be a record in the technical log for the aircraft, you can ask them to bring that with them when you escalate it to the small claims court if you don't get anywhere with the CAR.

    I have a claim in process with AirHelp, the airline involved are playing the exact same game after several weeks of runaround looking for more information or information they already have.
    They're taking 25% of the claim but they're doing all the chasing around, they won't let it go because they have skin in the game.


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    #15
    charlietheminxx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭charlietheminxx


    andrew1977 wrote: »

    How will the regulator prove I am telling the truth ?

    I wouldn't bother chasing it if it was factually incorrect, however their response to me is absolutely lies , no question about it.

    They'll be able to obtain the flight data I think, so they will know the flight was meant to depart at X time and didn't depart until Y time, and that a replacement plane was used.

    You're right to keep on with it. I'd ring the regulator anyway and let them know you've submitted an appeal but would like some reassurance on the process.


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    #16
    ionapaul
    Registered Users Posts: 5,295 ✭✭✭ionapaul


    I brought one of Europe's most recognisable airlines to the Small Claims Court before as they lied (I believe) in the reason a flight was delayed by 4+ hours; as above, I believe they did this simply to get out of paying compensation and put me off. Ended up getting the full €800 in a cheque from them via the Small Claims Court, which they paid to avoid having to show up and fight their case. I had prepared for the day in court actually so a little regretful I didn't get to go!


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    #17
    bennyineire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    My flight to Cologne was cancelled after a 6 hour delay last year from Ryanair and they denied my claim because of "Thunder storms".

    it was sunny in Dublin and Cologne that day, I also got a satellite weather report of that say. Clear sky's from Dub to Cologne all day.

    I appealed to the Aviation Authority (it took 8 months BTW) fully expecting them to rule in my favor, but no they sided with Ryanair. Ryanair said the the plane we were to board was held up on it's earlier sector in Greece due to thunderstorms.

    I argued that, that previous sector had nothing to do with me and that the real issue was that Ryanair had capacity issues of their own doing. But I still got no where, the Avaitaion Authority much like most regulatory bodies in Ireland are useless. Or do other people think I'm in the wrong here ? I''m genuinely asking what other peoples view on this is.


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    #18
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,155 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    bennyineire wrote: »
    My flight to Cologne was cancelled after a 6 hour delay last year from Ryanair and they denied my claim because of "Thunder storms".

    it was sunny in Dublin and Cologne that day, I also got a satellite weather report of that say. Clear sky's from Dub to Cologne all day.

    I appealed to the Aviation Authority (it took 8 months BTW) fully expecting them to rule in my favor, but no they sided with Ryanair. Ryanair said the the plane we were to board was held up on it's earlier sector in Greece due to thunderstorms.

    I argued that, that previous sector had nothing to do with me and that the real issue was that Ryanair had capacity issues of their own doing. But I still got no where, the Avaitaion Authority much like most regulatory bodies in Ireland are useless. Or do other people think I'm in the wrong here ? I''m genuinely asking what other peoples view on this is.
    My impression is most genuine complaints to the aviation authority are upheld and compensation is paid. Not saying yours wasn’t genuine but maybe there was more complexity to it like it was due to ATC restrictions which could be due to thunderstorms.


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    #19
    andrew1977
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭andrew1977


    Should I wait until the aviation regulator gets back to (how long is the wait approximately ? ) or should I just proceed to the small claims court with this now ?

    Thanks


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    #20
    ionapaul
    Registered Users Posts: 5,295 ✭✭✭ionapaul


    bennyineire wrote: »
    My flight to Cologne was cancelled after a 6 hour delay last year from Ryanair and they denied my claim because of "Thunder storms".

    it was sunny in Dublin and Cologne that day, I also got a satellite weather report of that say. Clear sky's from Dub to Cologne all day.

    I appealed to the Aviation Authority (it took 8 months BTW) fully expecting them to rule in my favor, but no they sided with Ryanair. Ryanair said the the plane we were to board was held up on it's earlier sector in Greece due to thunderstorms.

    I argued that, that previous sector had nothing to do with me and that the real issue was that Ryanair had capacity issues of their own doing. But I still got no where, the Avaitaion Authority much like most regulatory bodies in Ireland are useless. Or do other people think I'm in the wrong here ? I''m genuinely asking what other peoples view on this is.
    Hmm, the airline's response to my compensation claim was very similar! I also did my research to get as much evidence as I could that the claim of 'fog' was bull. Went to Small Claims Court (cost €25 to do so, a few years ago) and they paid out rather then go through with it. Much sooner than 8 months too; I'd advise the OP to go to Small Claims Court TBH.


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    #21
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Locker10a wrote: »
    bennyineire wrote: »
    My flight to Cologne was cancelled after a 6 hour delay last year from Ryanair and they denied my claim because of "Thunder storms".

    it was sunny in Dublin and Cologne that day, I also got a satellite weather report of that say. Clear sky's from Dub to Cologne all day.

    I appealed to the Aviation Authority (it took 8 months BTW) fully expecting them to rule in my favor, but no they sided with Ryanair. Ryanair said the the plane we were to board was held up on it's earlier sector in Greece due to thunderstorms.

    I argued that, that previous sector had nothing to do with me and that the real issue was that Ryanair had capacity issues of their own doing. But I still got no where, the Avaitaion Authority much like most regulatory bodies in Ireland are useless. Or do other people think I'm in the wrong here ? I''m genuinely asking what other peoples view on this is.

    My impression is most genuine complaints to the aviation authority are upheld and compensation is paid. Not saying yours wasn’t genuine but maybe there was more complexity to it like it was due to ATC restrictions which could be due to thunderstorms.

    In such a case the Authority took the correct approach.

    Whilst ordinarily knock on effects are not a valid reason to reject a claim, if there is a valid extraordinary circumstance which affected the same aircraft on the same day than an airline can use the excuse not to pay and so provided it was the same day the previous sector/s can apply.


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    #22
    andrew1977
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭andrew1977


    GM228 wrote: »
    In such a case the Authority took the correct approach.

    Whilst ordinarily knock on effects are not a valid reason to reject a claim, if there is a valid extraordinary circumstance which affected the same aircraft on the same day than an airline can use the excuse not to pay and so provided it was the same day the previous sector/s can apply.

    This is why I feel I am right in my claim.
    My aircraft boarded and ready to depart on time , it went technical a minute or two from moving off the stand ( was still pushing back ) , captain announced technical issue which needed checking , then announced 1 hour to fix approximately, then further delay due to replacement part being faulty .
    I will pursue this , I think I am right , the reply the airline gave me is complete nonsense in my opinion


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    #23
    ZX7R
    Registered Users Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭ZX7R


    andrew1977 wrote: »
    This is why I feel I am right in my claim.
    My aircraft boarded and ready to depart on time , it went technical a minute or two from moving off the stand ( was still pushing back ) , captain announced technical issue which needed checking , then announced 1 hour to fix approximately, then further delay due to replacement part being faulty .
    I will pursue this , I think I am right , the reply the airline gave me is complete nonsense in my opinion

    You're problem would be ,the replacement part been faulty,that would be considered an exceptional circumstances,it would be considered out of the airline's control.


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    #24
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,428 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ZX7R wrote: »
    You're problem would be ,the replacement part been faulty,that would be considered an exceptional circumstances,it would be considered out of the airline's control.

    Wouldn't that imply that the original part breaking should be out of the airlines control too?


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    #25
    ZX7R
    Registered Users Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭ZX7R


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Wouldn't that imply that the original part breaking should be out of the airlines control too?

    No I would not believe so,I would say a part breaking would be factored into there day to day running,a replacement part been faulty the airline can not be held responsible, the company that made said part would be


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    #26
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    ZX7R wrote: »
    No I would not believe so,I would say a part breaking would be factored into there day to day running,a replacement part been faulty the airline can not be held responsible, the company that made said part would be
    In which case the operator in question would be able to pursue a warranty claim from the part supplier but it's got nothing to do with your claim.


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    #27
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    ZX7R wrote: »
    You're problem would be ,the replacement part been faulty,that would be considered an exceptional circumstances,it would be considered out of the airline's control.
    ZX7R wrote: »
    No I would not believe so,I would say a part breaking would be factored into there day to day running,a replacement part been faulty the airline can not be held responsible, the company that made said part would be

    Parts failure, manufacturing defects/faults or technical problems can not be deemed to be exceptional circumstances.


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    #28
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    GM228 wrote: »
    Parts failure, manufacturing defects/faults or technical problems can not be deemed to be exceptional circumstances.

    Exactly but if they insist on going down that road ALL aircraft maintenance must be properly documented and recorded, ask them to bring a copy of the aircraft tech log for the previous thirty days, the reliability report for the ATA chapter related to the defect, the strip reports for the original LRU and the one reported as fail on fit.
    All of these will be required to back up their version of events so they should have no problem producing it.
    When you have the paperwork you can verify that all the maintenance has been properly recorded with evidence that they followed the correct troubleshooting procedure (the TSM /FIM reference has to be recorded along with the AMM reference for the unit replacement), you can tell from this information how long the job took (or should have taken).


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    #29
    Van.Bosch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,851 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    From reading this I’m not sure which way it will pan out but I’d imagine you are due and will get compensation. Purely due to your doggedness and ability to source info online.

    Can you imagine the amount of pax on that flight that won’t do that and then extrapolate to every delayed flight - must be huge.


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    #30
    andrew1977
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭andrew1977


    This again is the full reply received from them.

    How can they claim my flight delay was because of the below when we boarded on time , pushed away from the stand , technical problem as the plane reversed ,then the captain updated us constantly about it being a technical issue .
    I’m baffled .
    Anyway I have logged my claim with the aviation regulator, should I wait for their verdict or apply to the small claims court immediately? Thanks

    We refer to your recent correspondence dated 06/08/2019.

    We regret the delay of your flight xx xxx from Dublin - DUB to Xxx on the 2019-08-03, which was due to an earlier flight disruption as a result of foreign object, which caused a knock-on effect to the daily schedule of the aircraft.

    As this delay was unexpected we wish to inform you that no compensation is due under EU261/2004 as this was caused due to extraordinary circumstances beyond Xxx control.


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    #31
    cefh17
    Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭cefh17


    andrew1977 wrote: »

    We regret the delay of your flight xx xxx from Dublin - DUB to Xxx on the 2019-08-03, which was due to an earlier flight disruption as a result of foreign object, which caused a knock-on effect to the daily schedule of the aircraft.

    As this delay was unexpected we wish to inform you that no compensation is due under EU261/2004 as this was caused due to extraordinary circumstances beyond Xxx control.

    Hi OP

    In a similar situation to you (different circumstances and airline), the regulator took over 3 months to hear back from the airline and come up with a decision which didn't go our way. Peddled the same BS excuse we were told originally, thinking SCC might be the way to go, but ours will be the EU direction.


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