Wild Nephin

robp · 01-11-2012 5:12pm

Eddie B wrote: »

I'll drop ya up there one of the morning's with your camera! You can post your results on here!!! o and photo's of sheep don't count!!!:D:D:D:D

I think you are right. The absolute productivity must be pretty darn low even if it still manages to support some very special species. That is probable inevitably but I still argue that a more diverse patchwork of bog and native scrub woodland would attract more.

robp · 12-02-2013 1:02pm

For those interested in Mayo in May there will be a conference on this topic.

Wilderness in a Modified European Landscape: Conference

Date 14 May 2013
Venue Westport, County Mayo

Date: 14th – 16th May 2013

Location: Westport, County Mayo

Coillte (Ireland’s state forest company), in cooperation with the National Parks and Wildlife Service and Mayo County Council, and supported by Pan Parks and Wild Europe, are organising an international conference on – THE POTENTIAL AND CHALLENGES OF DEVELOPING WILDERNESS IN MODIFIED EUROPEAN LANDSCAPES, to be held in Westport, County Mayo, Ireland, on 14th May – 16th May 2013 during Ireland’s Presidency of the Council of the European Union.

The Conference will bring together experts, representing national and international organisations, to share information and exchange ideas on current and possible future approaches to rewilding modified landscapes particularly former plantation forests and other impacted landscapes.

http://www.mountaineering.ie//events/viewdetails.asp?ID=656

whyulittle · 14-03-2013 3:15pm

Ireland's first wilderness project launched

Over 11,000 hectares in the Nephin Beg Range of North West Mayo have been designated as Ireland’s first wilderness area following the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) between Coillte and the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

The memorandum commits both parties to working together to deliver the wilderness project, which includes forest lands and parts of the Ballycroy National Park

Full story at coillte.ie.

cameramonkey · 14-03-2013 5:27pm

whyulittle wrote: »

Full story at coillte.ie.

Could be an amazing place in a few years.

robp · 14-03-2013 7:18pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

Could be an amazing place in a few years.

Absolutely. I am very grateful for this move. I don't see it as inevitable at all as the site could have been a huge windfarm.

Does anyone know if this sort of pine forest can sustain wild boar? Can wild boar do well in the Scottish Caledonian woods?

cameramonkey · 22-03-2013 3:31pm

Mooney Show on RTE Radio 1 doing a piece on the this today Friday 22 March . Show starts at 3 pm .http://www.rte.ie/radio/
They also have a piece about using willow trees as a water cleansing system.

Eoghan Barra · 15-05-2013 1:08pm

Only just picked up on this now - potentially a very exciting development.

Can it really be true that our island is going to play a part in 'Rewilding Europe'? (See http://www.rewildingeurope.com/)

Or, as some contributors have pointed out, is this likely to be no more than a cynical PR stunt with no real substance - i.e. full of conifers and other non-native species, with no serious attempts to restore native ecosystems or reintroduce more challenging lost species?

The rewilding concept is probably one of the few real hopes for seriously slowing the current losses of biodiversity that are taking place across the world at rates that vary between worrying and catastrophic, according to location. (And which are set to accelerate.) Anyone interested should read Caroline Fraser's excellent book 'Rewilding the World: Dispatches from the Conservation Revolution'.

Only time will tell if those behind the Mayo project are serious about what they're doing from a conservation point of view. But it would be a great pity if Ireland in some way contributes to rendering meaningless the term 'rewilding' by adopting the term without the intention of really following through.

Rewilding entails being very radical in terms of taking landscape-size areas (11,000 hA isn't bad for Ireland), employing conservation and science-based restoration ecology to bring back functioning native ecosystems, and, essentially, developing connectivity in the form of wildlife corridors to other reserves.

The problem is that ecosystems need the full complement of species to function naturally, ranging all the way up to top predators and other 'keystone species'. Ireland's people don't seem ready for that (just look at the challenges involved in reintroducing birds of prey, with frequent poisonings etc.). But if the Nephim Beg project is carried out in a serious way, it may prove to be a very important stepping stone towards developments that have fantastic potential, not just from a biodiversity conservation viewpoint, but also for the economy in terms of ecotourism, currently the fastest growing area in tourism.

I wonder if anyone looking at this is attending the conference taking place in Westport on the subject right now and, if so, how did it go?

robp · 15-05-2013 3:15pm

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Only just picked up on this now - potentially a very exciting development.

Can it really be true that our island is going to play a part in 'Rewilding Europe'? (See http://www.rewildingeurope.com/)

Or, as some contributors have pointed out, is this likely to be no more than a cynical PR stunt with no real substance - i.e. full of conifers and other non-native species, with no serious attempts to restore native ecosystems or reintroduce more challenging lost species?

The rewilding concept is probably one of the few real hopes for seriously slowing the current losses of biodiversity that are taking place across the world at rates that vary between worrying and catastrophic, according to location. (And which are set to accelerate.) Anyone interested should read Caroline Fraser's excellent book 'Rewilding the World: Dispatches from the Conservation Revolution'.

Only time will tell if those behind the Mayo project are serious about what they're doing from a conservation point of view. But it would be a great pity if Ireland in some way contributes to rendering meaningless the term 'rewilding' by adopting the term without the intention of really following through.

Rewilding entails being very radical in terms of taking landscape-size areas (11,000 hA isn't bad for Ireland), employing conservation and science-based restoration ecology to bring back functioning native ecosystems, and, essentially, developing connectivity in the form of wildlife corridors to other reserves.

The problem is that ecosystems need the full complement of species to function naturally, ranging all the way up to top predators and other 'keystone species'. Ireland's people don't seem ready for that (just look at the challenges involved in reintroducing birds of prey, with frequent poisonings etc.). But if the Nephim Beg project is carried out in a serious way, it may prove to be a very important stepping stone towards developments that have fantastic potential, not just from a biodiversity conservation viewpoint, but also for the economy in terms of ecotourism, currently the fastest growing area in tourism.

I wonder if anyone looking at this is attending the conference taking place in Westport on the subject right now and, if so, how did it go?

I would argue that much of the Irish uplands are unnaturally open due to sheep and more recently by deer. Only in a few locations like on lake islands can we see how adaptable native trees are. Here is a classic example in Galway.
island-of-trees-in-a-bare-connemara-landscape-pierre-leclerc.jpg

island-of-trees-in-a-bare-connemara-landscape-pierre-leclerc.jpg

Excluding sheep from several thousand hectares will be a very interesting project and the most important aspect of the project in terms of understanding natural process of the Irish landscape but progress will be slow as so little native trees exist in the area. IMO the two main challenges both depend on EU funding applications. These are :

Controlling the rhododendron infestation
Establishing sufficient rowan, sally, birch, aspen shrub across the site and their protection from deer.

Eoghan Barra · 15-05-2013 6:23pm

robp wrote: »

Excluding sheep from several thousand hectares will be a very interesting project and the most important aspect of the project in terms of understanding natural process of the Irish landscape but progress will be slow as so little native trees exist in the area. IMO the two main challenges both depend on EU funding applications. These are :

Controlling the rhododendron infestation
Establishing sufficient rowan, sally, birch, aspen shrub across the site and their protection from deer.

Preventing overgrazing in order to encourage natural regeneration of woodland, or - where there are insufficient mature wild native trees to act as seed sources - replanting, is certainly a very worthwhile exercise. So is eliminating (a more appropriate word, where it can be done, than 'controlling') rhododendron and other non-native invasives wherever they are found.

I mentioned the Rewilding Europe project in relation to the Nephim Beg because of the following:

Bill Murphy, Wild Nephin Project Manager said “This is an important day not only for Ireland but also for Europe as this agreement is a key step along the way towards the goal of setting aside 1,000,000 ha of wilderness in Europe by 2020. Ireland is in the forefront of looking at modified landscapes, the challenges or rewilding and how these can contribute to wilderness in Europe”.

(http://www.coillte.ie/aboutcoillte/news/article/view/irelands-first-wilderness-project-launched/)

Given this type of language, I do think that it is very important that the Nephim Beg project be conducted in a genuinely ambitious manner that matches that language, rather than becoming just a 'lets just borrow these catchy terms (rewilding and wilderness) and stick them on a half-arsed project that never amounts to much more than fencing the sheep out of a reasonably large area.'

I should stress however, that I will be delighted if this does become something really serious, as this is definitely the way to go in conservation terms. And if Ireland does show itself to be leading the way in that regard then those responsible should be very loudly applauded (and, more importantly, emulated elsewhere).

robp · 15-05-2013 6:48pm

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Preventing overgrazing in order to encourage natural regeneration of woodland, or - where there are insufficient mature wild native trees to act as seed sources - replanting, is certainly a very worthwhile exercise. So is eliminating (a more appropriate word, where it can be done, than 'controlling') rhododendron and other non-native invasives wherever they are found.

I mentioned the Rewilding Europe project in relation to the Nephim Beg because of the following:

Bill Murphy, Wild Nephin Project Manager said “This is an important day not only for Ireland but also for Europe as this agreement is a key step along the way towards the goal of setting aside 1,000,000 ha of wilderness in Europe by 2020. Ireland is in the forefront of looking at modified landscapes, the challenges or rewilding and how these can contribute to wilderness in Europe”.

(http://www.coillte.ie/aboutcoillte/news/article/view/irelands-first-wilderness-project-launched/)

Given this type of language, I do think that it is very important that the Nephim Beg project be conducted in a genuinely ambitious manner that matches that language, rather than becoming just a 'lets just borrow these catchy terms (rewilding and wilderness) and stick them on a half-arsed project that never amounts to much more than fencing the sheep out of a reasonably large area.'

I should stress however, that I will be delighted if this does become something really serious, as this is definitely the way to go in conservation terms. And if Ireland does show itself to be leading the way in that regard then those responsible should be very loudly applauded (and, more importantly, emulated elsewhere).

There seems to be efforts to encourage osprey breeding and possibly re introducing black grouse and red squirrel. I think apex predators is a little over ambitious. Connectivity is good idea but I am not sure what could be connected to it part from Seskin and the other big plantations in the area. What else would make it stand out as a serious attempt? Personally I would consider transplanting some of our endangered relict wood ant populations there.

Eoghan Barra · 15-05-2013 7:37pm

robp wrote: »

There seems to be efforts to encourage osprey breeding and possibly re introducing black grouse and red squirrel. I think apex predators is a little over ambitious. Connectivity is good idea but I am not sure what could be connected to it part from Seskin and the other big plantations in the area. What else would make it stand out as a serious attempt? Personally I would consider transplanting some of our endangered relict wood ant populations there.

Reintroducing osprey etc. is certainly a good start, and I agree that top predators would definitely be premature at this point in time. However there are other species that would not be viewed as negatively, for e.g., red deer (once enough trees have had enough time to 'get away'), beaver, pine marten and so on. Species such as these could be reintroduced based on what is deemed by biologists to be most suitable to the habitats that will be created or improved.

As regards connectivity, I must admit I am not familiar with Nephim Beg, and it may be that there isn't much in the vicinity with which it could be connected, I don't know. This is perhaps an aspect that might come into play more if other similar areas develop in the future. What has been found however, is that the traditional 'reserve' type approach to conservation simply doesn't work (though it is, of course, better than nothing), as 'islands' of biodiversity that remain unconnected will become impoverished over time, in terms of ecosystems, species diversity and on a genetic level within species.

I think what is important here is the attitude with which it is done, and in particular which goals are prioritized: is conservation and restoration of genuine natural habitat, based on the most up-to-date scientific research, a fundamental aim (it doesn't sound as if that is the case if beech and conifers are to be part of the species mix), or are terms like rewilding and wilderness just catchphrases that will be bandied about in an empty way?

The Scottish 'Trees for Life' project (I think a previous poster already mentioned this) should be looked to for inspiration here, as something which has been underway for a couple of decades in very similar terrain with fantastic results. They have been proceeding in a very ambitious, while at the same time realistic, way

robp · 17-05-2013 9:41am

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Reintroducing osprey etc. is certainly a good start, and I agree that top predators would definitely be premature at this point in time. However there are other species that would not be viewed as negatively, for e.g., red deer (once enough trees have had enough time to 'get away'), beaver, pine marten and so on. Species such as these could be reintroduced based on what is deemed by biologists to be most suitable to the habitats that will be created or improved.

As regards connectivity, I must admit I am not familiar with Nephim Beg, and it may be that there isn't much in the vicinity with which it could be connected, I don't know. This is perhaps an aspect that might come into play more if other similar areas develop in the future. What has been found however, is that the traditional 'reserve' type approach to conservation simply doesn't work (though it is, of course, better than nothing), as 'islands' of biodiversity that remain unconnected will become impoverished over time, in terms of ecosystems, species diversity and on a genetic level within species.

I think what is important here is the attitude with which it is done, and in particular which goals are prioritized: is conservation and restoration of genuine natural habitat, based on the most up-to-date scientific research, a fundamental aim (it doesn't sound as if that is the case if beech and conifers are to be part of the species mix), or are terms like rewilding and wilderness just catchphrases that will be bandied about in an empty way?

The Scottish 'Trees for Life' project (I think a previous poster already mentioned this) should be looked to for inspiration here, as something which has been underway for a couple of decades in very similar terrain with fantastic results. They have been proceeding in a very ambitious, while at the same time realistic, way

Red deer and Pine marten are already present. I don't think beaver could be introduced as there is no evidence it lived in Ireland after the last Ice Age. There is the concern it would be detrimental to salmon stocks also. Leaving aside big predators like bear and wolf there are not so many mammals native to Ireland that have become extinct, maybe the wild boar and the wild cat but wild Nephin may be too small a block of habitat for those. Yet there are plenty of bird and insect species which are presently missing in Ireland. Beech isn't present to my knowledge but Lodgepole pine is present so it seems it will be allowed to continue growing there. I have mixed feeling about Lodgepole pine but at least in theory it could analogous to Scots pine which is native and the red squirrels will like it.

According to twitter presentations from the conference will be uploaded on to the Coillte website.

recedite · 17-05-2013 3:36pm

robp wrote: »

I don't think beaver could be introduced as there is no evidence it lived in Ireland after the last Ice Age. ..............there are not so many mammals native to Ireland that have become extinct, maybe the wild boar and the wild cat but wild Nephin may be too small a block of habitat for those. Yet there are plenty of bird and insect species which are presently missing in Ireland. Beech isn't present to my knowledge.

Why do you want to introduce birds and insects from outside, but not the more high profile species that might attract tourists and hence revenue to sustain the park? I'd like to see beavers, boar, even elk. I take it you are against beech, but an extensive and expensive program of planting broadleaf forest would probably be desirable. Also some official wilderness trails and campsites and/or lodges. Otherwise its just a piece of poor quality land, where Coillte find timber extraction to be uneconomical.

Eoghan Barra · 17-05-2013 4:10pm

robp wrote: »

Red deer and Pine marten are already present. I don't think beaver could be introduced as there is no evidence it lived in Ireland after the last Ice Age. There is the concern it would be detrimental to salmon stocks also. Leaving aside big predators like bear and wolf there are not so many mammals native to Ireland that have become extinct, maybe the wild boar and the wild cat but wild Nephin may be too small a block of habitat for those. Yet there are plenty of bird and insect species which are presently missing in Ireland. Beech isn't present to my knowledge but Lodgepole pine is present so it seems it will be allowed to continue growing there. I have mixed feeling about Lodgepole pine but at least in theory it could analogous to Scots pine which is native and the red squirrels will like it.

According to twitter presentations from the conference will be uploaded on to the Coillte website.

If non-native tree species like lodgepole pine (from North America) are left in significant quantities it will seriously devalue any claims that this is anything to do with restoration of natural habitat.

Wiki says that beaver became extinct in Ireland 'in historic times', though what the basis for this statement is I don't know. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fauna_of_Ireland). You are right that if there isn't conclusive evidence for their having been here since the ice age it would probably be wrong to introduce them. I wouldn't be so concerned about possible effects on Salmon; people need to get over thinking that every resource is there purely for their exploitation.

Good to know that red deer and pine marten are already present. Lynx is another species that has been verified as present in historic times, though Ireland is probably not ready for their reintroduction at present. Wild cat and wild boar, as you point out, would be good contenders - 11,000hA is probably big enough. Biologists would need to make these decisions based on what is possible in terms of existing habitat, habitat that will be restored or recreated and, last but not least, realpolitik.

But I repeat what I said before, fencing out sheep, while a positive step, does not constitute rewilding or wilderness creation.

robp · 18-05-2013 10:57am

recedite wrote: »

Why do you want to introduce birds and insects from outside, but not the more high profile species that might attract tourists and hence revenue to sustain the park? I'd like to see beavers, boar, even elk. I take it you are against beech, but an extensive and expensive program of planting broadleaf forest would probably be desirable. Also some official wilderness trails and campsites and/or lodges. Otherwise its just a piece of poor quality land, where Coillte find timber extraction to be uneconomical.

I think the most important thing is to create an area with characteristic Irish wildlife, plants and animals that people will feel is authentic. I think one could make the case for boar if you could ensure they won't enter the farmland to the east but elk and beaver are probably not native and if you introduce non natives you will risk creating an overgrown Fota Park. Their constructing trails and lean-tos but I am not sure about lodges. Perhaps one of the most impressive commitments to the wilderness ethic is the possibility they will remove pre-existing bridges on the Coillte roads there.

Mickeroo · 18-05-2013 12:26pm

Keeping the sheep out won't be easy I imagine, I'm wouldnt be surprised if plenty in the area still think that they have commonage rights even though the land is state owned?

robp · 18-05-2013 6:11pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Keeping the sheep out won't be easy I imagine, I'm wouldnt be surprised if plenty in the area still think that they have commonage rights even though the land is state owned?

Too right. Also sheep don't care who owns the land. Apparently this is problem in Killarney where sheep enter illegally.

robp · 24-05-2013 10:58am

Some of the conference presentations are now available on the Coillte website.

whyulittle · 02-01-2014 4:53pm

Ear to the Ground doing a piece on this tonight.

robp · 03-01-2014 3:49pm

whyulittle wrote: »

Ear to the Ground doing a piece on this tonight.

I though they overdid the rewilding jargon. I also felt the locals interviewed were a bit unfair. I completely sympathise with them and I agree efforts are needed to give local opportunities but Wild Nephin is one of the few viable options for the land. Forestry is not profitable. Sheep farming offers little. I have no doubt Wild Nephin will put the region on the map even though it won't attract legions.

Additional its not just about local jobs even though that is an important issue. whatever use has to serve the national interest as the land was purchased with taxpayer money not local money.

Cork boy 55 · 03-01-2014 4:59pm

It only covers 2% of Mayo if my maths is right.

So this wild nephin area will be a separate area alongside the Ballycroy National park and including some of its lands or is the Ballycroy NP being renamed Wild Nephin eventually

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballycroy_National_Park

I was sure there was a long documentary on the project on youtube by coillte, I cannot find it now

robp · 03-01-2014 9:26pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

It only covers 2% of Mayo if my maths is right.

So this wild nephin area will be a separate area alongside the Ballycroy National park and including some of its lands or is the Ballycroy NP being renamed Wild Nephin eventually

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballycroy_National_Park

I was sure there was a long documentary on the project on youtube by coillte, I cannot find it now

I don't know all the specifics but they were pretty clear that some of the national park would be part of the designated wilderness. I can't imagine any of the national park would be renamed. the national park has the highest level of recognition and protection in Irish and international law which I would imagine would take precedence. Personally I hope in the long-term the land joins the national park. I don't know though. If you give them an email I am sure they would respond.

I think the video was taken down. The opening part with Enda is still online on Coilltetv. I don't know why.

Hollzy · 05-01-2014 1:30am

Wish I'd seen Ear to the Ground. I was actually just thinking about this the other day. Is anything actually happening with it at the moment or is it still mostly discussion?

Cork boy 55 · 05-01-2014 3:35am

Hollzy wrote: »

Wish I'd seen Ear to the Ground.......

Its on the RTE player on their website
http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10238741/

It was just a few minutes report not really worth watching TBH.

FURET · 16-07-2015 8:38pm

Any updates on this project, such as how many trees are to be planted etc?

cameramonkey · 06-08-2015 5:12pm

Exposing the “Wild Nephin” Charade

http://tourismpurewalking.com/exposing-the-wild-nephin-charade/

Rebellion · 06-08-2015 5:14pm

this is a fantastic idea and hopefully gets off the ground, we need more of these projects

Alun · 06-08-2015 5:15pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

Exposing the “Wild Nephin” Charade

http://tourismpurewalking.com/exposing-the-wild-nephin-charade/

I agree with him, having walked in the area, it's no wilder than any other area I've been in in Ireland.

Birdnuts · 06-08-2015 10:32pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

Exposing the “Wild Nephin” Charade

http://tourismpurewalking.com/exposing-the-wild-nephin-charade/

Coillte are looking for public comments on their "future" plans atm( runs till the end of this month) so give them a piece of your mind. I know I will on a whole range of issues when it comes to their managment of our state forests.

magicbastarder · 07-08-2015 12:39am

there are lots of wider issues at play here - one being the (iirc) legal requirement for coillte to replant after harvesting, even if they wanted to allow natural regeneration after the harvest.

Wild Nephin

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