Undertaking in traffic

Builderfromhell · 29-11-2018 11:20pm #1

Every day I cycle the same route and coming towards lines of stopped traffic at traffic lights I have to decide to overtake and then cut in when traffic starts moving or undertake cars stopped in traffic.
The problem with undertaking is that there are often cars much too close to the kerb to pass. I have a side mirror on my handlebars so prefer lots of room. Also, sometimes I'm going downhill undertaking cars stopped at lights and the gap is tiny.
I'm not sure what's best from a legal, safe and efficiency of travel. Ideally, cyclists would have ample room to move past traffic, especially when going downhill. I say this as cyclists may have had to struggle to get up hills and braking wastes all that energy.

sullzz · 29-11-2018 11:37pm

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Every day I cycle the same route and coming towards lines of stopped traffic at traffic lights I have to decide to overtake and then cut in when traffic starts moving or undertake cars stopped in traffic.
The problem with undertaking is that there are often cars much too close to the kerb to pass. I have a side mirror on my handlebars so prefer lots of room. Also, sometimes I'm going downhill undertaking cars stopped at lights and the gap is tiny.
I'm not sure what's best from a legal, safe and efficiency of travel. Ideally, cyclists would have ample room to move past traffic, especially when going downhill. I say this as cyclists may have had to struggle to get up hills and braking wastes all that energy.

Undertake or wait, and be cautious of cars possibly turning left

What Username Guidelines · 29-11-2018 11:40pm

I’d very rarely overtake a line of cars to be honest, too tricky and unpredictable to get back left or centre lane when traffic does move, so undertake all the way. Granted for the most part there’s some paint lashed on the road that counts as cycle infrastructure so usually there is sufficient room, you just need to have your wits about you.

You’ll have plenty saying never go up the inside of a large vehicle, but I’ve no idea where those people cycle. If it’s stopped dead in traffic, there’s nowhere for it to go, and you’ve an “out”, then it shouldn’t be an issue.

There are some cases on my route, such as the bus lane from Harold’s cross to the canal, where it’s filled to the brim with cars and they’re up against the kerb, I’ll just wait in the line of cars. It might cost a minute or two overall but in the grand scheme of things it can be safer.

carltonleon · 29-11-2018 11:46pm

Undertake for me but as has been said above be careful of cars/trucks turning left

magicbastarder · 30-11-2018 12:11am

there are two places where i both under and overtake - where there are no road markings suggesting two lanes for cars, but they do it anyway, and you invariably find the most space between the two lines of queuing cars.

Weepsie · 30-11-2018 12:20am

I pass on the left, I woudn't say I undertake though, that to me implies that that you're changing your lane and cutting back in front of the cars.

At least that's how I would qualify undertaking. There is a very real difference between the two.

Wishbone Ash · 30-11-2018 12:20am

I only know one cyclist who 'undertakes' but he's a funeral director.

Lads, you are overtaking on the left.

I fcuking hate that stupid term 'undertaking'.

Rant over.

OldMrBrennan83 · 30-11-2018 12:23am

Sometimes the road isn't wide enough to leave ye room.

magicbastarder · 30-11-2018 12:34am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I fcuking hate that stupid term 'undertaking'.

it's one of those i'm happy to let slide usually. because people know what you mean and it's less clunky than the technically correct term.

ted1 · 30-11-2018 12:45am

I pass on the left of there’s room and on the right if there’s no room or a bus or truck. Of if there’s no traffic coming.e.g heading out of town in the evening I’ll skip down Angeles’s road on the right.

CramCycle · 30-11-2018 3:03am

I nearly always overtake on the right nowadays, decent lights, people think your a motorbike, less incidents for me. I understand why people avoid it though.

Macy0161 · 30-11-2018 9:02am

"It depends" is my answer. Generally pass stationary traffic on the left, if there's room. More and more motorists deliberately blocking though in my experience (pulling tight to the kerb for no other reason), in which case I pass on the right.

carltonleon · 30-11-2018 9:06am

Undertake ? Overtake ? .. Cycling Free, The Cyclists of Ireland, common are we !!!

Ah that brings back memories from my childhood !!!!

punisher5112 · 30-11-2018 9:14am

I hope you all take care when any vehicle is indicating or not at junctions as if they are ahead of you and showing intention of turning left then you must allow them do so.

I see so many that pelt it down and keep going and then wonder how they are hurt or worse killed.

Keep clear of trucks and buses and best advice on them is if you can't see their mirrors then they can't see you and also remember the blind spots

You could be right beside the lathe vehicle and you wouldn't be seen at certain points.
(Cameras and sensors would help here).

When a bus is at a bus stop the nose tends to be into the path more so making it very difficult to see cyclists flying up and then shoot out to pass at the last second.

Try and be out sooner and be seen.

C3PO · 30-11-2018 9:19am

CramCycle wrote: »

I nearly always overtake on the right nowadays, decent lights, people think your a motorbike, less incidents for me. I understand why people avoid it though.

I agree with Cramcycle on this one - I would rarely pass on the left of cars, particularly when they are moving slowly or stopped and even more so when there are cars parked on the left. Just too much chance of doors opening in front of me! Much prefer to take my chances on the right of the traffic where I have more control of the risks!

Macy0161 · 30-11-2018 9:19am

Well mine was a general comment. Obviously, i'd be wary going up the side of a truck or indicating vehicles. They have to be actually indicating to avoid it though! My only incident passing stationary traffic was when I was passing on the right actually, and someone in the line decided they'd had enough and decided to do a u turn and right hooked me (without indicating).

amcalester · 30-11-2018 9:25am

Patww79 wrote: »

Sometimes the road isn't wide enough to leave ye room.

Happy enough to wait behind when that’s the case.

I wish all motorists would afford me the same curtesy.

buffalo · 30-11-2018 9:39am

punisher5112 wrote: »

I see so many that pelt it down and keep going and then wonder how they are killed.

Who was the last person who wondered how they were killed? :pac:

"I got hit by a car and when I woke up, I was dead!"

average_runner · 30-11-2018 9:44am

buffalo wrote: »

Who was the last person who wondered how they were killed? :pac:

"I got hit by a car and when I woke up, I was dead!"

Are you Jesus?

OldMrBrennan83 · 30-11-2018 9:51am

amcalester wrote: »

Happy enough to wait behind when that’s the case.

I wish all motorists would afford me the same curtesy.

There's always a good few on my way to work and there's only one real spot where you can't keep out enough without going onto the other lane.

07Lapierre · 30-11-2018 10:08am

I pass on the left if i can't to do so on the right.

We're talking about driving on the M50 right?

Ray Bloody Purchase · 30-11-2018 10:09am

07Lapierre wrote: »

I pass on the left if i can't to do so on the right.

We're talking about driving on the M50 right?

Anything goes on the M50, amigo. It's bandit country.

Macy0161 · 30-11-2018 10:20am

07Lapierre wrote: »

I pass on the left if i can't to do so on the right.

We're talking about driving on the M50 right?

Judging by the thread in commuting, the only passing on the left you'd be doing on the m50 is in the hard shoulder!

punisher5112 · 30-11-2018 10:28am

buffalo wrote: »

Who was the last person who wondered how they were killed? :pac:

"I got hit by a car and when I woke up, I was dead!"

Knew you would like that one ;-)

monkeybutter · 30-11-2018 11:01am

only time I've ever been hit was when I've been overtaking stopped traffic

Know a few people in the same boat

People just don't look out for a cyclist to the right or bother to indicate when pulling out, either to change lane or to do a phantom u-turn

By the time it's happened, its hard to avoid just like when someone cuts across you or pulls out from a side entrance without looking at the last minute

jonnybravo · 30-11-2018 11:30am

I got knocked down bypassing parked traffic on the left by someone opening their door and not looking. It wasn't too bad, just a few scratches but I was asking my brother in law (who is a solicitor) who would be responsible. He said it'd be split. You shouldn't technically go on the inside (wasn't any cycle lane) and your man who opened the door should have looked.

amcalester · 30-11-2018 11:32am

jonnybravo wrote: »

I got knocked down bypassing parked traffic on the left by someone opening their door and not looking. It wasn't too bad, just a few scratches but I was asking my brother in law (who is a solicitor) who would be responsible. He said it'd be split. You shouldn't technically go on the inside (wasn't any cycle lane) and your man who opened the door should have looked.

Your brother in law is wrong, it’s perfectly legal to pass on the left even when there is no cycle lane.

magicbastarder · 30-11-2018 11:36am

the actual law.

(b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—

(i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

(ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or

(iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print

the grey area here would be had the vehicle stopped to let someone out, or did someone get out because it was stopped.

Chips Lovell · 30-11-2018 11:58am

Default overtake on the right. "If in doubt, stay out".

amcalester · 30-11-2018 12:05pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

the actual law.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print

the grey area here would be had the vehicle stopped to let someone out, or did someone get out because it was stopped.

That's where indicators, or lack thereof, would come in to play. Possibly road position too, a car stopped to let passengers alight should be pulled into the left with indicators on.

magicbastarder · 30-11-2018 12:08pm

yep, i had an interesting lesson in such the other day. cycling up the inside of stopped traffic; there was a taxi indicating left, but stopped and several cars back from the red light (at which there's a left turn a lot of cars take), so i went up the inside. however, as i did so, he pulled in to the kerb, i assume because the fare decided they'd gotten close enough to their destination to get out.

that would have been an interesting one - the taxi driver would have legitimately been able to claim that he'd indicated in plenty of time. i assumed the left he was intending was not the one he actually took.

aldark · 30-11-2018 3:10pm

often wondered about that too - I bet that the taxi was stopping to let passenger out, passenger was then paying etc. but the taxi just didn't bother pulling in. Perhaps he then changed his mind as passenger promised a tip and started fumbling through his pockets!

So, when someone indicates on the run up to a junction, does it confer sole right of way and if he subsequently pulls in or does a corner hugging turn, your estate would be unable to get paid.

Similar thing could happen if you're passing on the left coming up to a junction and traffic suddenly takes off - leaving you at a junction with a car who had been indicating maybe, having sped up to take a turn.

I think that you should be able to argue that an indicator by itself doesn't confer right of way, ie. just because you intend to turn at sometime in the future doesn't mean that everyone should stay behind?

magicbastarder wrote: »

yep, i had an interesting lesson in such the other day. cycling up the inside of stopped traffic; there was a taxi indicating left, but stopped and several cars back from the red light (at which there's a left turn a lot of cars take), so i went up the inside. however, as i did so, he pulled in to the kerb, i assume because the fare decided they'd gotten close enough to their destination to get out.

that would have been an interesting one - the taxi driver would have legitimately been able to claim that he'd indicated in plenty of time. i assumed the left he was intending was not the one he actually took.

Weepsie · 30-11-2018 3:49pm

And what of those vehicles who indicate for about a kilometre in a bus lane while passing about 5 turns?

07Lapierre · 30-11-2018 3:59pm

Weepsie wrote: »

And what of those vehicles who indicate for about a kilometre in a bus lane while passing about 5 turns?

And buses that indicate that they are pulling out from a bus-stop as soon they pull in to pick up passengers!

magicbastarder · 30-11-2018 4:08pm

aldark wrote: »

I think that you should be able to argue that an indicator by itself doesn't confer right of way, ie. just because you intend to turn at sometime in the future doesn't mean that everyone should stay behind?

i don't think the second half of your statement logically flows from the first half - no, having your indicator on does not confer right of way. but that does not mean that someone behind has any right to pass you on the side you're indicating on.

What Username Guidelines · 30-11-2018 4:08pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

And buses that indicate that they are pulling out from a bus-stop as soon they pull in to pick up passengers!

I think that’s a trick that most drivers pull, they indicate while still accepting fares to speed things along, hoping that a car will stop and flash them out eventually. On one hand I understand how it could save time when you count up every stop over the course of a route, but on the other hand when you’ve built up a bit of speed on the bike and there’s a clear opportunity to overtake, it’s infuriating to end up stopping behind the bus and see 3 or 4 passengers still waiting to get on.

steamsey · 30-11-2018 5:10pm

C3PO wrote: »

I agree with Cramcycle on this one - I would rarely pass on the left of cars, particularly when they are moving slowly or stopped and even more so when there are cars parked on the left. Just too much chance of doors opening in front of me! Much prefer to take my chances on the right of the traffic where I have more control of the risks!

I'd constantly be on the left. if blocked, I'd jump up on the path if it's clear (I know) rather than take up what I consider a motorbike overtaking position on the right which leaves you massively exposed to someone deciding to do a u turn out of traffic. On a motorbike, you have brighter lights, a bigger road presence and an indicator, all of which might make it that little bit safer when overtaking on the right. On a bike, you're very exposed in this position. I do it for one 100m piece of my journey because there is no other way, other than wait in traffic.

In and out of town everyday, I see some, but pretty few, cyclists taking the right to move through traffic.

IMO drivers are not expecting cyclists on the right which makes left the safer option.

So I overtake on the right only if I have to and I'd be really. really careful when doing it. Left is no walk in the park either, but that's what I finds works best.

CramCycle · 30-11-2018 5:13pm

Most motorists think you are a motorcycle in my estimations, probably helped by my decent light, and treat you as such. I am not sure what the risks or chances are of one position over another, I just feel and find myself able to progress faster and safer. Pull into line when traffic is coming against you, pull back out when it is clear, same as a motorbiker.

I am not saying people should do it, and sometimes it is slower than the inside line, where you can progress constantly if space allows but I find it more predictable and that I estimate that many motorists use their right mirror for motorbikes more than their left, but it still requires a decent light so that they see what they expect.

tomasrojo · 30-11-2018 8:58pm

The only problem I have with passing on the right is when traffic is totally stalled in one direction only. You get people who suddenly have had enough, and hurl the car to the right without looking, to start a u-turn to go back and try a different route. That's the only scenario I've ever had a problem with it.

I don't have a lot of choice these days, as filtering is too hard on the bakfiets, so I end up waiting a bit. At peak time, some junctions are a bit of a conundrum, as motorists signal they're turning, but also wait to let cyclists pass. So my usual rule of not passing an indicating vehicle on the inside can leave the motorist waiting, and annoy cyclists behind me,. but at the same time, there's always the chance I've misjudged the intentions of the motorist.

tomasrojo · 30-11-2018 9:00pm

It's kind of funny the way "overtake" went in Britain and Ireland. In the USA, they often still use it in the original sense of "catch up with". Like: "I stayed out walking too late, and the storm overtook me." They don't seem to use it to mean "to pass" much. At least, not that I noticed.

punisher5112 · 01-12-2018 1:09am

Is it too much to compute that when a bus stops at a bus stop that people are going to alight and it's not the brightest thing to burst ones way up the footpath....

Wishbone Ash · 01-12-2018 10:22am

punisher5112 wrote: »

Is it too much to compute that when a bus stops at a bus stop that people are going to alight and it's not the brightest thing to burst ones way up the footpath....

If you are referring to a scenario where the cycle track is on the right hand side of footpath, I think that the bus driver shouldn't open the bus doors until the cyclists has passed. Unfortunately many bus drivers don't do this allowing their passengers to get into potential danger.

When I drove buses, I always considered it a fairly basic thing to do.

CramCycle · 01-12-2018 10:58am

Many have yield signs on the ground, not that they should be needed, in shared space you should always yield to pedestrians.

If I am there at the same time or just ahead of the bus, provided there is no one getting on, I keep going. If I arrive after, I stop to let the passengers alight.

The other thing I see a tiny minority of cyclists do that irks me, if your cycling past a bus stop, and it's crowded, slow the **** down, also, don't cycle through people, pushing through like an arseface, it's really bad manners.

punisher5112 · 01-12-2018 11:33am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

If you are referring to a scenario where the cycle track is on the right hand side of footpath, I think that the bus driver shouldn't open the bus doors until the cyclists has passed. Unfortunately many bus drivers don't do this allowing their passengers to get into potential danger.

When I drove buses, I always considered it a fairly basic thing to do.

A cyclist must yield to any foot traffic (pedestrians)

This includes people alighting from a bus.

I've had people hit by those flying up off the road onto the footpath.

punisher5112 · 01-12-2018 11:36am

I've been hit twice recently by a hats in the city centre.

One fella hit the wall as he cycled into me but it didn't work for him and the other was similar but he hit my shoulder and went flying off the bike.

Was quite funny.

Fighting Tao · 01-12-2018 11:46am

punisher5112 wrote: »

I've been hit twice recently by a hats in the city centre.

One fella hit the wall as he cycled into me but it didn't work for him and the other was similar but he hit my shoulder and went flying off the bike.

Was quite funny.

You’re very unlucky. I’ve never been hit by a bike anywhere. Maybe you should wear hi-viz to be seen.

CramCycle · 01-12-2018 11:54am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

You’re very unlucky. I’ve never been hit by a bike anywhere. Maybe you should wear hi-viz to be seen.

I see near misses daily, most are cars going through pedestrian crossings. A small number are cyclists going through as people get on or off buses, or at pedestrian crossings. I'd say the percentage of one's I observe are equivalent in regards number of commuters in each mode.

Basically, it's not a motorist or cyclist thing, it's an asshat thing.

Fighting Tao · 01-12-2018 11:56am

CramCycle wrote: »

I see near misses daily, most are cars going through pedestrian crossings. A small number are cyclists going through as people get on or off buses, or at pedestrian crossings. I'd say the percentage of one's I observe are equivalent in regards number of commuters in each mode.

Basically, it's not a motorist or cyclist thing, it's an asshat thing.

Yep, we have all agreed that many times here before.

punisher5112 · 01-12-2018 1:09pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

You’re very unlucky. I’ve never been hit by a bike anywhere. Maybe you should wear hi-viz to be seen.

They expectede to jump out of the way but no I didn't and they shouldn't have been cycling on the path anyway.

Yes of course I could have stepped aside but no not happening.

Ray Palmer · 01-12-2018 1:34pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

A cyclist must yield to any foot traffic (pedestrians)

This includes people alighting from a bus.

I've had people hit by those flying up off the road onto the footpath.

Do you have a law for that. You seem to suggest pedestrians have right of way in all areas so they can walk out in the middle of the road and everyone including cars don't have right of way?

Not suggesting people should be mowed down but surely a pedestrian walking in a cycle lane whether on the road or path is in the wrong.

punisher5112 · 01-12-2018 2:13pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Do you have a law for that. You seem to suggest pedestrians have right of way in all areas so they can walk out in the middle of the road and everyone including cars don't have right of way?

Not suggesting people should be mowed down but surely a pedestrian walking in a cycle lane whether on the road or path is in the wrong.

If it's a bus stop cyclists must yield.

If a pedestrian is crossing one must let them do so.

A cyclist actually has a lot of responsibility and must take care of what and who are around them.

Undertaking in traffic

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