Cyclists

beauf · 14-11-2018 8:42am

Tombo2001 wrote: »

....
Similar, on the way home yesterday, every cyclist I saw had lights.

...
...

However - when it comes to commuter cyclists - I strongly think this is a red herring; given the amount of social media time it gets.

What I would fully accept however is that while pretty much every cyclist had lights, some of them were fairly poor lights - that's a different issue, but arguably a more important one to address.

Might depend on your route. Standing on the south quays one night about 40% were ninjas. So at every change in the lights you'd get about 5-10 with no lights.

Regardless of how useful lights are. Its the law. If enforcement rate is about 3-4 a day, then it's not being enforced.

beauf · 14-11-2018 8:50am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

My own opinion is that people are generally visible in urban areas, with or without lights, whether on bikes or on foot.

Some of my urban route has no street lights. Even where there is a flashing light helps catch the eye.

Anyway it doesn't seem to be big factor in stats. IMO Its driver habits and cyclist road positioning. That is not easily fixed.

I say that as a cyclist and a driver. I don't see cyclists now and then and I'm making a big effort to look for them. You can't look 360 all the time and cars have big blind spots.

Cycle and drive like no one sees you. Assume nothing.

Chips Lovell · 14-11-2018 9:47am

Of course, it should go without saying that anecdote =/= evidence.

beauf · 14-11-2018 9:52am

A proper traffic study in a couple of locations or even a camera would sort that. Someone is bound to go to the trouble of counting the latter.

Taxuser1 · 14-11-2018 11:04am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've got mixed results, but nothing that would constitute abuse. I only speak if I'm beside them at the lights, which doesn't happen all that often.

I use the Doppler method of advising on their lightage. screaming YOUR LIGHTS ARE **** 50 metres behind them and 50 metres past them should give you the desired level of abuse.

Macy0161 · 14-11-2018 11:05am

If I say anything, I just go with "I think your lights are out of battery". Even if they have no visible light. It's not very frequent I see anyone without them (generally teenagers on the pavement), and less frequent I bother saying anything.

Mc Love · 14-11-2018 11:20am

Was behind a taxi driver with no lights on my way home last night, tempted to cycle up beside his window and say something but decided not to. We know how angry they get especially with cyclists. But after they drove off, it was near impossible to see them up ahead alongside traffic travelling in the opposite direction.

TooObvious · 14-11-2018 12:58pm

In all this discussion about cyclists without lights/hi-vis/jumping red lights/wearing black/dublin bike users etc., the key thing to remember is...the vast majority of those rule breakers are saving up to buy a car.

Mc Love · 14-11-2018 2:00pm

TooObvious wrote: »

In all this discussion about cyclists without lights/hi-vis/jumping red lights/wearing black/dublin bike users etc., the key thing to remember is...the vast majority of those rule breakers are saving up to buy a car.

Really? Many cyclists I know have cars and choose to cycle due to the cost of parking and traffic!

jjpep · 14-11-2018 2:40pm

TooObvious wrote: »

In all this discussion about cyclists without lights/hi-vis/jumping red lights/wearing black/dublin bike users etc., the key thing to remember is...the vast majority of those rule breakers are saving up to buy a car.

I'd question this assumption too. Pretty much every one I know who cycles already own a car and cycle to avoid traffic/health benefits etc.

Weepsie · 14-11-2018 2:42pm

TooObvious wrote: »

In all this discussion about cyclists without lights/hi-vis/jumping red lights/wearing black/dublin bike users etc., the key thing to remember is...the vast majority of those rule breakers are saving up to buy a car.

Am I the only person who took this as a joke. I guess sarcasm doesn't translate so well

CramCycle · 14-11-2018 2:45pm

Weepsie wrote: »

Am I the only person who took this as a joke. I guess sarcasm doesn't translate so well

I took it as sarcasm, why would you save up for a car when you can save up for another bike?

TooObvious · 14-11-2018 2:46pm

T'was a joke

jjpep · 14-11-2018 3:24pm

TooObvious wrote: »

T'was a joke

Sorry, my bad. If its any good I'm crap at picking up sarcasm/humor face to face as well...

tomasrojo · 14-11-2018 10:59pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

On the way in this morning, I saw 1 cyclist out 46 in total that didn't have lights. Nearly every cyclist had front and rear lights as well as hi viz on.

Similar, on the way home yesterday, every cyclist I saw had lights.

I have a pretty strong view at this point that commuting cyclists do very well when it comes to lighting themselves up.

I agree; as I said earlier in the thread, the majority seem to have lights of some kind, and a lot of ok to good lights. Though I do think that peak commute times are dominated by adult cyclists with jobs, and they are the type who would have lights, I think. As you say, teenagers seem to have lights a lot less frequently, and around three or four pm there would be fewer cyclists with lights, but then again, it's before lighting up time for all but a small bit of the year.

Along the Grand Canal, even those with less good lights or no lights are usually mixed in with a group of well-lit cyclists. Sort of like immunisation: even those not participating benefit.

EDIT: Not saying that those without lights might not meet a scenario that turns out badly for them. Though I think the likeliest place for an unlit cyclist to have a collision is on a two-way cycle track, especially when no street lighting.

CramCycle · 14-11-2018 11:15pm

I pass UCD daily, the % of cyclists with lights and those who obey lights plummets within 100m of the grounds and returns to normal as you get further away. The driving capabilities of drivers also plummets as well. So much for the highly educated.

Wishbone Ash · 14-11-2018 11:58pm

CramCycle wrote: »

... So much for the highly educated.

LOL

Reminds me of one night when I got really pissed off with a cyclist who was travelling in the same direction out of the city center. He was doing everything wrong - no lights, dark clothing, shoaling, squeaky bike, breaking red lights etc.

....but according to his backpack, he was a fellow of the RCSI.

Weepsie · 15-11-2018 12:18am

I saw a guy wearing an altura night vision jacket tonigh, which is arguably one of the better reflective jackets you can get. He had over it however, an RSA builders best type hi Viz which had poorer reflective capabilities, and over it again a backpack covering most of the reflective stuff anyway.

I wonder why bother going to all the effort of getting such gear, and then doing it arseways

15-11-2018 1:55am

I actually find the full on retroflective jackets hard on the eyes if i'm honest either on the bike or in car. The altura night vision gets it right imo.

Ray Palmer · 15-11-2018 2:41pm

I had a bike which was really well lite up with EL wire on the frame, lights on the wheels, 2 lights front and back one flash the other not. The motorists still didn't see me and got the "You came out of nowhere" . Lights don't matter if people aren't looking which is a bigger issue.

Mike1961 · 15-11-2018 2:49pm

A nice fella from Dublin Cycling Campaign was giving out free lights to cyclists at the Five Lamps (Amiens Street) yesterday. Strange feeling to see cyclists that couldn't be bothered to buy lights queuing up for the freebies. Still good work from DCC.

Tombo2001 · 16-11-2018 2:26pm

Mike1961 wrote: »

A nice fella from Dublin Cycling Campaign was giving out free lights to cyclists at the Five Lamps (Amiens Street) yesterday. Strange feeling to see cyclists that couldn't be bothered to buy lights queuing up for the freebies. Still good work from DCC.

Be devils advocate here.

I genuinely believe there is an issue with foreign students who come here - they don't have a bean once they get here (after shelling out gigantic costs for tuition, accommodation and travel).

Maybe they live in Santry, and their buddy lives in Fairview. Not that far but we know, public transport takes forever. And so they get some cheap bike for 50 euro or less; a 21 or 22 year old living off a budget of maybe 100 euro a week spending money. They are only over for a few months anyway. Are they really going to spend 40 of that on a decent set of bike lights.

There are more than 50'000 international students studying English in Dublin.

sReq | uTeK · 16-11-2018 2:29pm

Sitting at a red light in clonskeagh heading into ranelagh today and I counted 13 cyclists going through a red whilst people tried to walk across at the crossing. Oh and one idiot on a scooter

Id like to see 13 cars going through a red light dodging pedestrians.

rubadub · 16-11-2018 2:44pm

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Id like to see 13 cars going through a red light dodging pedestrians.

why would you like that? how many articulated lorries would you like to see do it? buses?

Weepsie · 16-11-2018 2:45pm

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Sitting at a red light in clonskeagh heading into ranelagh today and I counted 13 cyclists going through a red whilst people tried to walk across at the crossing. Oh and one idiot on a scooter

Id like to see 13 cars going through a red light dodging pedestrians.

The only thing stopping cars is that it becomes a physical impossibility for more than one or 2 to squeeze through. Doesn't stop them from trying.

Taxuser1 · 16-11-2018 2:55pm

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Sitting at a red light in clonskeagh heading into ranelagh today and I counted 13 cyclists going through a red whilst people tried to walk across at the crossing. Oh and one idiot on a scooter

Id like to see 13 cars going through a red light dodging pedestrians.

a bug bear of mine and most conscientious cyclists here I'd imagine. i like to think that most invested in cycling, be it leisure or racing abide by and respect the rules of the road. Commuting in Dublin is a different animal, I agree here, I'd likely see 80% run red lights on my way. there is a proportionate number who would seem to use the bike daily only as a means of transport and have no mass in road rules; the dog eat dog/be there on time rules apply only.

Macy0161 · 16-11-2018 3:23pm

Weepsie wrote: »

The only thing stopping cars is that it becomes a physical impossibility for more than one or 2 to squeeze through. Doesn't stop them from trying.

Whites Cross this morning I counted 5 cars/ SUV's entering the junction from Newtown Park Avenue after red.

AndrewJRenko · 16-11-2018 4:00pm

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Sitting at a red light in clonskeagh heading into ranelagh today and I counted 13 cyclists going through a red whilst people tried to walk across at the crossing. Oh and one idiot on a scooter

Id like to see 13 cars going through a red light dodging pedestrians.

Try counting cars breaking the speed limit, and see if you get to stop at 13?

CramCycle · 16-11-2018 5:22pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Be devils advocate here.

I genuinely believe there is an issue with foreign students who come here - they don't have a bean once they get here (after shelling out gigantic costs for tuition, accommodation and travel).

There are more than 50'000 international students studying English in Dublin.

I know Donnybrook Garda station actively sought out students from abroad, who had entered UCD via a Visa, they talked to the student adviser and arranged a meeting with them a few years ago to explain things like this, what was expected etc. as, just like you, they perceived that there was a large number of students, who out of ignorance rather than bad manners, did not have lights. While I thought it was a good initiative, my own experience passing that olace is that there is no difference, plenty of rural and city folk from Ireland going in and out without a care in the world, hopping up and down off pavements, no lights etc. It is an age and possibly an ego thing. They believe they are smarter, quicker, faster, whether they know the law or not, they don't perceive the danger, therefore it does not exist in their mind. Was I any better, probably not, I had lights cause my Dad had made us use bottle dynamos as a kid but there were plenty of nights I probably didn't.

The problem escalates as the RSA and others convince them that Hi Vis is the answer to that near miss they had, not the poor infrastructure or the lack of attention the driver was paying. When they don the sacred vest of yellow, they feel those few close calls they had are no longer a risk, or even worse, they feel safer hopping up and down off pavements and going through lights.

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Sitting at a red light in clonskeagh heading into ranelagh today and I counted 13 cyclists going through a red whilst people tried to walk across at the crossing. Oh and one idiot on a scooter

Id like to see 13 cars going through a red light dodging pedestrians.

Not a reasonable comparison, for the simple fact, once one car stops,everyone behind them as the choice taken out of their hands, so you cannot say for certain how many would have went through. There are several stories here of stopping on a red that changed a few seconds before and the driver behind beeping to give out that you stopped, ie you took the choice out of their hands. Cycling is different, I often see 12 people stopped at a set of lights and someone goes around and through with ease.

Macy0161 wrote: »

Whites Cross this morning I counted 5 cars/ SUV's entering the junction from Newtown Park Avenue after red.

Everytime I am heading southbound, I find myself hand off the bars shrugging as I wait for cars to stop coming through when I get a green light. Its not like there is even a straight switch, there is a pause between there red and my green to le them clear the junction and yet still, we all must wait for that last car to gun it across the junction.

Reminds me of that old picture of "new" safety device in cars that improved driving dramatically and it was a spear, pointing out of the steering wheel and at the drivers chest. You want lights to work, bar putting cameras up, the other option is to fit a set of spikes that raise out of the ground as soon as a light goes red, you'd never have anyone risk breaking an amber again.

First Up · 05-12-2018 11:54am

On a 4k round trip in wet conditions last night (Mount Merrion-Dundrum). I had close calls with three black clad unlit cyclists and saw (luckily for them) at least five more.

Its a bloody plague and I see neither publicity or enforcement.

Fighting Tao · 05-12-2018 12:28pm

First Up wrote: »

On a 4k round trip in wet conditions last night (Mount Merrion-Dundrum). I had close calls with three black clad unlit cyclists and saw (luckily for them) at least five more.

Its a bloody plague and I see neither publicity or enforcement.

You did see them so well done.

I have a story about a dark grey van I saw last night with no lights and multiple cars with no rear lights.

Its a bloody plague and I see neither publicity or enforcement.

Chips Lovell · 05-12-2018 12:32pm

If you think someone is a troll, report the post.

Don't call it out on thread as it just derails the thread and counts as backseat moderation.

First Up · 05-12-2018 12:52pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

On a 4k round trip in wet conditions last night (Mount Merrion-Dundrum). I had close calls with three black clad unlit cyclists and saw (luckily for them) at least five more.

Its a bloody plague and I see neither publicity or enforcement.

You did see them so well done.

I have a story about a dark grey van I saw last night with no lights and multiple cars with no rear lights.

Its a bloody plague and I see neither publicity or enforcement.

Couldn't agree more

Fighting Tao · 05-12-2018 12:55pm

First Up wrote: »

Couldn't agree more

Sadly, the lack of road law enforcement is the plague. Enforcement changes bad habits. Lack of enforcement reinforces bad habits.

First Up · 05-12-2018 1:06pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Couldn't agree more

Sadly, the lack of road law enforcement is the plague. Enforcement changes bad habits. Lack of enforcement reinforces bad habits.

Agree. Appealing to the responsibility of motorists is futile and so it seems is appealing to the intelligence or self preservation instincts if cyclists.

07Lapierre · 05-12-2018 1:33pm

First Up wrote: »

On a 4k round trip in wet conditions last night (Mount Merrion-Dundrum). I had close calls with three black clad unlit cyclists and saw (luckily for them) at least five more.

It's a bloody plague and I see neither publicity or enforcement.

Have you considered writing to you local TD and requesting more resources for the Gardai to enforce the ROTR? or Maybe a protest outside his office or the local Garda station?

average_runner · 05-12-2018 1:47pm

First Up wrote: »

Agree. Appealing to the responsibility of motorists is futile and so it seems is appealing to the intelligence or self preservation instincts if cyclists.

How many of the cyclists are motorists? Considering there is a massive increase in the number of cyclists now, I would say alot are also motorists at various stages during the week, but things are not improving on the road!!

First Up · 05-12-2018 2:56pm

average_runner wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Agree. Appealing to the responsibility of motorists is futile and so it seems is appealing to the intelligence or self preservation instincts if cyclists.

How many of the cyclists are motorists? Considering there is a massive increase in the number of cyclists now, I would say alot are also motorists at various stages during the week, but things are not improving on the road!!

Maybe some of the motorists with broken headlights are also unlit cyclists wearing dark colours.

First Up · 05-12-2018 2:57pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

On a 4k round trip in wet conditions last night (Mount Merrion-Dundrum). I had close calls with three black clad unlit cyclists and saw (luckily for them) at least five more.

It's a bloody plague and I see neither publicity or enforcement.

Have you considered writing to you local TD and requesting more resources for the Gardai to enforce the ROTR? or Maybe a protest outside his office or the local Garda station?

I have made the point to several of my TDs, including a Green.

07Lapierre · 05-12-2018 3:10pm

First Up wrote: »

I have made the point to several of my TDs, including a Green.

Well done you! Enforcement of all ROTR for all road users is badly needed.

AndrewJRenko · 05-12-2018 4:33pm

First Up wrote: »

On a 4k round trip in wet conditions last night (Mount Merrion-Dundrum). I had close calls with three black clad unlit cyclists and saw (luckily for them) at least five more.

Its a bloody plague and I see neither publicity or enforcement.

Do you ever wonder why these 'close calls' with cyclists aren't reflected in the road death or serious injury statistics?

First Up · 05-12-2018 6:33pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

On a 4k round trip in wet conditions last night (Mount Merrion-Dundrum). I had close calls with three black clad unlit cyclists and saw (luckily for them) at least five more.

Its a bloody plague and I see neither publicity or enforcement.

Do you ever wonder why these 'close calls' with cyclists aren't reflected in the road death or serious injury statistics?

I'm not sure that they aren't but if you are suggesting that unlit cyclists wearing dark clothes on wet winter nights are not a hazard to themselves or others, I'd be interested to know why.

I can only speak about my own close calls and the reason was alertness on my part and in one instance, speedy use of the brakes.

John_Rambo · 05-12-2018 6:36pm

Real life - “I saw”

Log on to boards.ie - “I had a close call"

First Up · 05-12-2018 6:38pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Real life - “I saw”

Log on to boards.ie - “I had a close call"

The cyclists had them too.

AndrewJRenko · 05-12-2018 8:26pm

First Up wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

On a 4k round trip in wet conditions last night (Mount Merrion-Dundrum). I had close calls with three black clad unlit cyclists and saw (luckily for them) at least five more.

Its a bloody plague and I see neither publicity or enforcement.

Do you ever wonder why these 'close calls' with cyclists aren't reflected in the road death or serious injury statistics?

I'm not sure that they aren't but if you are suggesting that unlit cyclists wearing dark clothes on wet winter nights are not a hazard to themselves or others, I'd be interested to know why.

I can only speak about my own close calls and the reason was alertness on my part and in one instance, speedy use of the brakes.

First Up wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

On a 4k round trip in wet conditions last night (Mount Merrion-Dundrum). I had close calls with three black clad unlit cyclists and saw (luckily for them) at least five more.

Its a bloody plague and I see neither publicity or enforcement.

Do you ever wonder why these 'close calls' with cyclists aren't reflected in the road death or serious injury statistics?

I'm not sure that they aren't but if you are suggesting that unlit cyclists wearing dark clothes on wet winter nights are not a hazard to themselves or others, I'd be interested to know why.

I'm sure they don't show up in the road safety statistics to any significant degree. Last year, two out of fifteen cyclists deaths occurred after dark. It's just not a significant issue. Your anecdotal experience does not make this a significant safety issue.

Did you notice many motorists breaking the speed limit on your trip?

Wishbone Ash · 05-12-2018 8:35pm

I'd very rarely challenge other cyclists regarding lights but did so on Monday morning.

Caught up with a cyclist on a rural unlit road in north County Dublin shortly after 6am (still very dark). He had a front light but no rear.

As I was passing I noticed that he had a rear light but it wasn't on so I said in a diplomatic way "Your rear lights seems to have gone off".

"Ah yea", he replied "I don't bother with it until I get to Dublin, but thanks anyway".

I was lost for words.

First Up · 05-12-2018 9:42pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm sure they don't show up in the road safety statistics to any significant degree. Last year, two out of fifteen cyclists deaths occurred after dark. It's just not a significant issue. Your anecdotal experience does not make this a significant safety issue.

Did you notice many motorists breaking the speed limit on your trip?

In heavy traffic on a wet evening, no I didn't see many motorists breaking the speed limit but I wouldn't defend them if I did.

You on the other hand seem to be defending cyclists without lights or high-viz clothing and I'm wondering why.

Not all cyclist accidents result in deaths but I am intrigued at the attitude on display here. If an unlit cyclist is knocked over because he is virtually invisible, who do you think is responsible?

Steve · 05-12-2018 10:05pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm sure they don't show up in the road safety statistics to any significant degree. Last year, two out of fifteen cyclists deaths occurred after dark. It's just not a significant issue. Your anecdotal experience does not make this a significant safety issue.

Did you notice many motorists breaking the speed limit on your trip?

Just to balance your point, this only gives merit to the motorists (of which I am one) for their awareness and care on the roads.

Unlit cyclists need to cop on to the fact that they are next to invisible on suburban roads, especially when there is oncoming traffic (cars with lights on).

It beggars belief that they take risks like this.

07Lapierre · 05-12-2018 10:20pm

Steve wrote: »

Just to balance your point, this only gives merit to the motorists (of which I am one) for their awareness and care on the roads.

Unlit cyclists need to cop on to the fact that they are next to invisible on suburban roads, especially when there is oncoming traffic (cars with lights on).

It beggars belief that they take risks like this.

My commute is both rural and urban roads and I regularly pass a cyclist on rural, unlit roads, who has no lights and wears dark clothing!

Never underestimate some people's stupidity.

AndrewJRenko · 05-12-2018 10:58pm

First Up wrote: »

In heavy traffic on a wet evening, no I didn't see many motorists breaking the speed limit but I wouldn't defend them if I did.

The important question isn't so much about who defends what, but who chooses to get excited about what.

Motorists kill 3 or 4 people each week on the roads and maim many more. 60% - 80% of motorists break speed limits in the RSA Speed Survey. Speeding is one of the top three causes of road deaths.

Do you think that maybe your top priority should be to get your fellow motorists to slow down and stop killing people before you start jumping up and down about unlit cyclists?

First Up wrote: »

You on the other hand seem to be defending cyclists without lights or high-viz clothing and I'm wondering why.

Where exactly did I defend cyclists without lights? A specific quote would be great.

First Up wrote: »

Not all cyclist accidents result in deaths but I am intrigued at the attitude on display here. If an unlit cyclist is knocked over because he is virtually invisible, who do you think is responsible?

Generally I find it more productive to focus on the real world rather than hypotheticals. In the real world, you have incidents like this where a cyclist with lights and hi-vis got run down and killed by a bus driver.

http://www.thejournal.ie/bus-driver-cyclist-death-4335560-Nov2018/

If you actually want to reduce road deaths, get motorists to slow down, put their phones down and put their pints down.

If you want to divert attention from the real dangers on the road, you can jump up and down about ninja cyclists.

Cyclists

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