Do minimum wage jobs provide enough not to live paycheck-to-paycheck?

mr_fegelien · 23-10-2020 5:44pm #1

I've heard this is scarily common in America where most of the population would be on the streets if they had a medical emergency and weren't able to work for 2 months.

I would hope that's not the story here and that there is a higher minimum wage at jobs here. Is the issue in Ireland the salary in jobs or the cost of housing?

endacl · 23-10-2020 5:45pm

Di you have any Irish current affairs or cultural references?

At all?

mickdw · 23-10-2020 5:50pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I've heard this is scarily common in America where most of the population would be on the streets if they had a medical emergency and weren't able to work for 2 months.

I would hope that's not the story here and that there is a higher minimum wage at jobs here. Is the issue in Ireland the salary in jobs or the cost of housing?

Without welfare backup, the majority of families would not be able to buy food if any given weeks paycheck didnt arrive.

Mrs OBumble · 23-10-2020 7:38pm

mickdw wrote: »

Without welfare backup, the majority of families would not be able to buy food if any given weeks paycheck didnt arrive.

Source?

Minimum wage jobs aren't supposed to be enough to sustain a family long-term. They're starter jobs only.

listermint · 23-10-2020 7:42pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Source?

Minimum wage jobs aren't supposed to be enough to sustain a family long-term. They're starter jobs only.

Starter jobs... Hmm interesting let me subscribe to your nonsense news letter..

We wouldn't have enough people in the country to fill all the minimum wage positions if it was just a starter job. It's this sort of scurrilous nonsense thats allowed free reign .

Drivel.

Mrs OBumble · 25-10-2020 9:47am

listermint wrote: »

Starter jobs... Hmm interesting let me subscribe to your nonsense news letter..

We wouldn't have enough people in the country to fill all the minimum wage positions if it was just a starter job. It's this sort of scurrilous nonsense thats allowed free reign .

Drivel.

So tell me, what jobs actually only pay minimum wage?

25-10-2020 11:24am

Was reported around the budget with the minimum wage going up that around 120k people "would benefit" so I presume that's the number of people on min wage. There's not a whole lot of families depending on minimum wage I would presume.

Addle · 25-10-2020 11:28am

I think it’s probably as much about spending habits as income.

BrianD3 · 25-10-2020 12:01pm

Minimum wage does provide enough to "live" and save but only if circumstances are just right. The minimum wage in Dublin is the same as the minimum wage in Leitrim yet housing costs are clearly far lower in the latter. If you can manage to get a job in Leitrim and live close to it in shared accommodation and you don't have children, don't have health insurance, don't drink, smoke or go on holidays, don't have high medical expenses (or they are covered by the State) have Saorview/Freesat TV and a cheap car - then yeah.

jelem · 25-10-2020 12:14pm

the covid showed the government lies of "near full employment".
when figures announced for covid payments the "out of work" totals
showed just How many are actually not in "full employment".
it looks like upto or more than 60% of work forcer are on
part time\zero hours etc. Min. wage with very little income security
along with previous posters statement of the figure in "work" whom
require "benefits" in order to basic survive.
this whilst billions given away as tax present etc.
i remind you of politicians Over payment and we need what Italy did
recently, a referendum to reduce the amount of "snouts in trough"
politicians -
As much as uk brexit may not be liked you have to look at
just over 600 mps for approx 60 million people whilst ireland
has a higher number of "TD" per population and with between 5 to 6 million population
we cannot afford the pay\perks \nd pensions of tthose whom as far as i see and can point out are
corrupt failures.

25-10-2020 2:51pm

jelem wrote: »

it looks like upto or more than 60% of work forcer are on
part time\zero hours etc. Min. wage with very little income security
along with previous posters statement of the figure in "work" whom
require "benefits" in order to basic survive.

How on earth have you come to this conclusion?

Jimson · 25-10-2020 2:57pm

Two adults on minimum wage or close to it in the West of Ireand could survive easily and buy a property.

Definitely not in Dublin. Even in the likes of Kilkenny or Watetford could get a house for 150K and survive there.

With the 3.5 rule of 40K between them gives them a mortgage of 140K and a 10% deposit of 14K gives 154K.

Not going to live a lavish lifestyle but doable. I don't think Mrs o bumble realizes the amount of people on minimum wage outside of Dublin

jelem · 25-10-2020 3:00pm

Maisie Ashy Ketchup wrote: »

How on earth have you come to this conclusion?

try listen to politicians bleatings and take note of other announcements in media.
simple maths of approx 5 million - take elderly\children\sick\single worker of couple
and adults in education for approx workforce.
an announcement in last month of over 750,000 in receipt of benefits
(cannot recall which particular) then take away the part time workers whom still employed
nurses\drivers\factory etc. and what you got as nearer than governments bleatings.
(dont forget even usa fiddles its figures with 6% unemployed which is by their own "methods"
whilst the figures show actual approx 26%).

25-10-2020 3:04pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So tell me, what jobs actually only pay minimum wage?

Plenty of shops and bars and restaurants and coffee shops.

After a while to might get a small raise but starting pay is minimum or very close to it.

Add in the zero hour contracts and mis matched rosters, it's not a good place to be long-term yet many are.

Is that their own fault? Societies? Governments? Bit of all I suppose. Zero hour contracts however need to be abolished and the averages of salaries compared to average hours worked.

jelem · 25-10-2020 4:08pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Plenty of shops and bars and restaurants and coffee shops.

After a while to might get a small raise but starting pay is minimum or very close to it.

Add in the zero hour contracts and mis matched rosters, it's not a good place to be long-term yet many are.

Is that their own fault? Societies? Governments? Bit of all I suppose. Zero hour contracts however need to be abolished and the averages of salaries compared to average hours worked.

the frontline have to be "pay promoted" nurses\health care workers\street cleaners\refuse collectors
The "manual labour" field for which society depends on has been raped as far as pay is concerned
whilst the "irish" unions had lunch in that stephens green hotel with government folk.
Manual labour "All out" and see how the government\managers\tech companies etc. survive.
they play on your willingness to Help and abuse you with low pay.

25-10-2020 6:47pm

jelem wrote: »

the frontline have to be "pay promoted" nurses\health care workers\street cleaners\refuse collectors
The "manual labour" field for which society depends on has been raped as far as pay is concerned
whilst the "irish" unions had lunch in that stephens green hotel with government folk.
Manual labour "All out" and see how the government\managers\tech companies etc. survive.
they play on your willingness to Help and abuse you with low pay.

OK, I see your point but please stop using quotation marks like that

Mrs OBumble · 25-10-2020 6:53pm

Maisie Ashy Ketchup wrote: »

Was reported around the budget with the minimum wage going up that around 120k people "would benefit" so I presume that's the number of people on min wage. There's not a whole lot of families depending on minimum wage I would presume.

Exactly. And many of them will be third-level students working part time.

SweetLeaf · 25-10-2020 7:13pm

Jimson wrote: »

Two adults on minimum wage or close to it in the West of Ireand could survive easily and buy a property.

I beg to differ.

While not the craziness of Dublin, rents in the West, especially in anywhere that has any jobs, are not cheap. And there is plenty of places that have supply problems. The town I live in has a total of 2 places for rent on daft and it's the 3rd largest town in the county. One is a house for 850/month.

Min wage is 10.10, most min wage jobs are 37.5 hrs so you are on 378.75 a week before tax. you will pay very low tax but still after rent you have about 2k a month total for everything else for 2 adults to survive.

Good luck getting a down payment together and getting approved for a mortgage on what's left after you stretch that 2k to cover all of what 2 adults require to get by. Under those circumstances it can be difficult to get the money together for a root canal let alone a house.

I also hate the whole, 'these are starter jobs' BS.
In large swathes of the country the towns have very few jobs at all and many people are forced to take these jobs that in urban areas, or countries with proper jobs markets, are typically done by teenagers.

A lot of towns consist mostly of an Aldi, a Lidl and one other supermarket, a few hairdressers, a few bookies, a dozen pubs, a few petrol stations, a few hotels and restaurants, convenience shops, the post office, a few takeaways and some small clothes retailers.

See how many jobs you can pick out of that lineup that are going to pay anything significantly above min wage.

El Tarangu · 25-10-2020 7:53pm

SweetLeaf wrote: »

Min wage is 10.10, most min wage jobs are 37.5 hrs so you are on 378.75 a week before tax. you will pay very low tax but still after rent you have about 2k a month total for everything else for 2 adults to survive.

Good luck getting a down payment together and getting approved for a mortgage on what's left after you stretch that 2k to cover all of what 2 adults require to get by. Under those circumstances it can be difficult to get the money together for a root canal let alone a house.

If the minimum wage were raised to (for example) €15, what effect do you think that would have on rents and house prices at the lower end of the market? Do you think an increased wage cost would have the effect of making employers hire more people, or fewer people?

SweetLeaf wrote: »

I also hate the whole, 'these are starter jobs' BS.
In large swathes of the country the towns have very few jobs at all and many people are forced to take these jobs that in urban areas, or countries with proper jobs markets, are typically done by teenagers.

If you are resident in Ireland and able to speak English, there is literally zero stopping you obtaining qualifications to get a better paying job. Quite the opposite in fact; there are loads of government supports to help people get the right training for jobs that are available.

A lot of towns consist mostly of an Aldi, a Lidl and one other supermarket, a few hairdressers, a few bookies, a dozen pubs, a few petrol stations, a few hotels and restaurants, convenience shops, the post office, a few takeaways and some small clothes retailers.

See how many jobs you can pick out of that lineup that are going to pay anything significantly above min wage.

Lidl store manager earns €62k; I think a regional manager would earn a good chunk more than that, though you would have to learn German.

Your complaint seems to be there aren't more tech or financials services jobs in small towns; these towns just don't have the population numbers to support these types of jobs - this is not something unique to Ireland.

Mrs OBumble · 25-10-2020 11:17pm

SweetLeaf wrote: »

Min wage is 10.10, most min wage jobs are 37.5 hrs so you are on 378.75 a week before tax. you will pay very low tax but still after rent you have about 2k a month total for everything else for 2 adults to survive.

I was temping for a couple of months last year, at a time when my self-employed partner had almost no income. We had about 2k per month after tax and before rent most months. Tight, but do-able with care.

SweetLeaf wrote: »

In large swathes of the country the towns have very few jobs at all and many people are forced to take these jobs that in urban areas, or countries with proper jobs markets, are typically done by teenagers.

A lot of towns consist mostly of an Aldi, a Lidl and one other supermarket, a few hairdressers, a few bookies, a dozen pubs, a few petrol stations, a few hotels and restaurants, convenience shops, the post office, a few takeaways and some small clothes retailers.

See how many jobs you can pick out of that lineup that are going to pay anything significantly above min wage.

Well this says the average hairdresser is on 27k - https://ie.indeed.com/salaries/hair-stylist-Salaries

Aldi say that "since 1 February 2020, the Living Wage of €12.30 per hour is in place for our store colleagues" - https://www.aldi.ie/living-wage#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20we%20increased%20wages,place%20for%20our%20store%20colleagues.

Lidl - has been well ahead of the minimum wage for sometime - https://corporate.lidl.ie/press-room/pressreleases/20181105-living-wage

An Post are paying their temps 14.50 per hour - based on that, I think it's fair to assume their permanent staff are well above minimum wage. - https://www.anpost.com/Working-with-An-Post/Careers/Temporary-Postal-Operatives-Dublin

LuasSimon · 25-10-2020 11:25pm

We are heading the way of England where a huge amount of people earn minimum wage or close to it ... they have to go to food banks to survive .
It’s galling you see people like Larry Goodman with a net wealth of 3 Billion paying the vast majority of his staff minimum wage for very tough work . It’s even more galling he won’t pay his taxes in this country . One of Ireland’s richest citizens not paying tax in Ireland sounds crazy when people on modest salaries circa 50K pay 40% on top of usc and prsi .

landofthetree · 25-10-2020 11:31pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Source?

Minimum wage jobs aren't supposed to be enough to sustain a family long-term. They're starter jobs only.

This is the key point.

In the USA half the people who are in poverty one year are out of it the next.

Also the unemployed and the homeless have considerable turnover.

The poor in the USA arent a permanent class of people.

Thomas Sowell explained it very well in his book.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0S-O6WDalug&t=57s

Smee_Again · 25-10-2020 11:34pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

We are heading the way of England where a huge amount of people earn minimum wage or close to it ... they have to go to food banks to survive .
It’s galling you see people like Larry Goodman with a net wealth of 3 Billion paying the vast majority of his staff minimum wage for very tough work . It’s even more galling he won’t pay his taxes in this country . One of Ireland’s richest citizens not paying tax in Ireland sounds crazy when people on modest salaries circa 50K pay 40% on top of usc and prsi .

Goodman is tax resident in Ireland.

It’s his companies that are based abroad.

landofthetree · 25-10-2020 11:43pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

We are heading the way of England where a huge amount of people earn minimum wage or close to it ... they have to go to food banks to survive .
It’s galling you see people like Larry Goodman with a net wealth of 3 Billion paying the vast majority of his staff minimum wage for very tough work . It’s even more galling he won’t pay his taxes in this country . One of Ireland’s richest citizens not paying tax in Ireland sounds crazy when people on modest salaries circa 50K pay 40% on top of usc and prsi .

He doesnt. You couldnt run a business like his on low paid workers.

On the manual side he employs skilled workers eg Maintenance fitters, Electrician, Butchery, Production.

On the professional side he employs people in Financial Control – Quality Assurance, Food Science, Production Management, Sales & Marketing, Information Technology, Procurement, Environmental, Health and Safety, Human Resources and Engineering.

Good luck getting staff for any of the above positions for minimum wage.

The low paid jobs in ABP would be a job like Coldstore General operative.

landofthetree · 25-10-2020 11:57pm

jelem wrote: »

the covid showed the government lies of "near full employment".
when figures announced for covid payments the "out of work" totals
showed just How many are actually not in "full employment".
it looks like upto or more than 60% of work forcer are on
part time\zero hours etc. Min. wage with very little income security
along with previous posters statement of the figure in "work" whom
require "benefits" in order to basic survive.
this whilst billions given away as tax present etc.
i remind you of politicians Over payment and we need what Italy did
recently, a referendum to reduce the amount of "snouts in trough"
politicians -
As much as uk brexit may not be liked you have to look at
just over 600 mps for approx 60 million people whilst ireland
has a higher number of "TD" per population and with between 5 to 6 million population
we cannot afford the pay\perks \nd pensions of tthose whom as far as i see and can point out are
corrupt failures.

Almost every third level student gets a job during the summer. Many work part time during the year.

Its not hard to understand why so many people dont work full time.

landofthetree · 26-10-2020 12:14am

listermint wrote: »

Starter jobs... Hmm interesting let me subscribe to your nonsense news letter..

We wouldn't have enough people in the country to fill all the minimum wage positions if it was just a starter job. It's this sort of scurrilous nonsense thats allowed free reign .

Drivel.

We don't have enough.

It's why we have to get Eastern Europeans to fill positions(pre-covid). Even in 2014 we couldn't fill positions.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/3000-unfilled-hotel-jobs-as-employers-struggle-to-get-staff-30041834.html

Aideen Sheehan
February 25 2014 11:33 PM
THERE are over 3,000 unfilled jobs in the hotel sector at present as employers face an increasing struggle to find trained staff.

The new president of the Irish Hotels Federation (IHF) Stephen McNally warned there are staff shortages in all areas of hotel work, including chefs, bar staff, supervisory roles and housekeeping.

26-10-2020 7:26am

LuasSimon wrote: »

We are heading the way of England where a huge amount of people earn minimum wage or close to it ... they have to go to food banks to survive .
It’s galling you see people like Larry Goodman with a net wealth of 3 Billion paying the vast majority of his staff minimum wage for very tough work . It’s even more galling he won’t pay his taxes in this country . One of Ireland’s richest citizens not paying tax in Ireland sounds crazy when people on modest salaries circa 50K pay 40% on top of usc and prsi .

Have you any actual data to back this up? The CSO doesn't seem to agree.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq42019finalq12020preliminaryestimates/

jelem · 28-10-2020 3:27pm

Maisie Ashy Ketchup wrote: »

Have you any actual data to back this up? The CSO doesn't seem to agree.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq42019finalq12020preliminaryestimates/

quote cso lol how juvenile and politically blind

SweetLeaf · 29-10-2020 7:57pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I was temping for a couple of months last year, at a time when my self-employed partner had almost no income. We had about 2k per month after tax and before rent most months. Tight, but do-able with care.

Well this says the average hairdresser is on 27k - https://ie.indeed.com/salaries/hair-stylist-Salaries

Aldi say that "since 1 February 2020, the Living Wage of €12.30 per hour is in place for our store colleagues" - https://www.aldi.ie/living-wage#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20we%20increased%20wages,place%20for%20our%20store%20colleagues.

Lidl - has been well ahead of the minimum wage for sometime - https://corporate.lidl.ie/press-room/pressreleases/20181105-living-wage

An Post are paying their temps 14.50 per hour - based on that, I think it's fair to assume their permanent staff are well above minimum wage. - https://www.anpost.com/Working-with-An-Post/Careers/Temporary-Postal-Operatives-Dublin

My friend works in Aldi and 3/4th of the staff are on 20 hr contracts. An Post is basically a public service job which always have decent pay. In Dublin rhey may pay that but I wouldn't be sure outside of the big smoke. In any case, they are temp jobs. Theyre not handing out permanent jobs, my post office has had the same 3 clerks for the last 10 years. People in town would kill to get in there.

Probably not much point arguing. People in urban areas and/or on comfortable wages don't know how bad it is elsewhere. You would only know the score if you had actually had to work or job seek in these areas.

Do minimum wage jobs provide enough not to live paycheck-to-paycheck?

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