Heysel disaster 35 years ago today.

emo72 wrote: »

It was terrible. But the authorities were warned before the match that the venue was not suitable. The stadium was falling apart. And there has been history previous seasons with Italian fans attacking Liverpool fans the previous season. This was the days before crowd safety.

As a Liverpool supporter I'm not in any way condoning what happened, it was abhorrent behaviour by our fans. But the authorities should never had let that match get played there.

Would a stadium like that be used for a champions League final today?

I dont buy that tbh. Even if the stadium had have been held together with match sticks and blue tac, those fans would not have died if it were not for the actions of a significant number of liverpool supporters. There is no whataboutery here.

If the wall had not collapsed people would have simply been crushed or suffocated against it, the end result would have been the same, perhaps even worse as at least some of them had a means to escape from the carnage when it did give way.

https://youtu.be/lRDzBi1IZj8

Video above contains some distressing scenes so discretion is advised.

ShamoBuc wrote: »

I was at that. Felix bloody Healy.:(

Savage crowd from Derry at it. I was behind the goal he scored into, which was fine but the rest of the ground was fairly jammers.

I was moved from behind the goal where most of the Derry fans were to the side of the pitch as it was two packed for little citytillidie

emo72 wrote: »

It was terrible. But the authorities were warned before the match that the venue was not suitable. The stadium was falling apart. And there has been history previous seasons with Italian fans attacking Liverpool fans the previous season. This was the days before crowd safety.

As a Liverpool supporter I'm not in any way condoning what happened, it was abhorrent behaviour by our fans. But the authorities should never had let that match get played there.

Would a stadium like that be used for a champions League final today?

You may not be condoning it but you seem to be making very flimsy excuses based on your own allegiances, to make the actions of those involved not as appalling as they should be remembered.

padd b1975 wrote: »

Seriously?

I never heard it mentioned anywhere for trouble.

Not trouble packed stand with unsafe crowd levels in the Derry end

fyfe79 wrote: »

In fairness, emo72 said it was abhorrent behaviour by Liverpool fans. We all agree there. He also spoke the truth in saying that stadium shouldn't have held the most prestigious event in UEFA's calander - if you read about the condition of the stadium that day, it can't be disputed. There were people moving, unchecked for tickets, literally through holes in the wall.

It is possible for a scenario to occur that Liverpool fans are dicks - and also for the stadium to be unsuitable for such an event - on the same day.

Not only possible. It's factual.

Juventus and Liverpool actually both objected to it being played there., due to the state it was in. Uefa didn't listen, and barely inspected it.

Doesn't excuse anything that happened that dark day, but those are facts.

Statutory Ape wrote: »

The condition of the stadium did not cause the deaths of those people, the actions of rival fans caused the deaths of those people. .

Nobody said the stadium caused the deaths.

Statutory Ape wrote: »

Then why bring the condition of the stadium into the discussion?

Ask the poster that mentioned it first. I'd say he's perfectly entitled to discuss it unless mods have said otherwise, which they haven't afaik.

As for me I was replying to that discussion.

Statutory Ape wrote: »

Im asking you as I've already replied to him. You and the poster previous to you are the ones that took the comment about the stadium and added additional commentary that has zero relevance to what unfolded. If it had no bearing on the outcome of the day then why continue to run with that particular ball?

It reads to me that while ye are agreeing the actions by one group on the day were reprehensible, because you frankly dont have a choice with that, ye are still throwing in a bit of a yeah, but, which to me is an attempt to apportion a little bit of the culpability on the stadium and powers that be that allowed the game be played there in the first instance, to somehow explain or defend, albeit at a micro level, the indefensible.

Apologies if I'm misinterpreting and please do clarify if I am.

Yes, you're misinterpreting it, and no problem. See post #16.

Alonso77 wrote: »

How anyone could suggest that the state of the stadium wasn't relevant to the overall story of the day is baffling and a bit strange tbh.

Every single documentary and report on the disaster I have seen has mentioned the state of the stadium.

Of course there is relevance to it. The same relevance that it was a sunny day, that it was the 30th anniversary final etc. The relevance ends there however.

It is not relevant in respect of how those people died, that is the point I've been making.

Statutory Ape wrote: »

Of course there is relevance to it. The same relevance that it was a sunny day, that it was the 30th anniversary final etc. The relevance ends there however.

It is not relevant in respect of how those people died, that is the point I've been making.

Ah, now I understand :cool:

If the group of liverpool fans did not charge through the neutral area and attack the Juve fans, thus causing the stampede, resultant crush and wall collapse, would those 39 people have died?

The answer is no.

Would the wall have crumbled if people were not herded against it by others fleeing for their safety?

Considering no other walls spontaneously crumbled that day then one can only really conclude that it wouldn't have.

You can make all the excuses you want about holes in the walls, ticketless fans and overcrowding but those 39 fans died because of the behaviour of that section of liverpool fans. No amount of yeah, buts changes that.

fergiesfolly wrote: »

The Stardust disaster was caused by an electrical fault in a storeroom.
There is no comparison between innocent kids losing their lives in the most horrendous of circumstances through no fault of their own and the actions of thugs and hooligans at Heysel, the policing and condition of the stadium notwithstanding.
You're absolutely scrapping the bottom line of the barrell if that's how you defend the actions of those fans.
Your analogy is quite frankly disgusting and you should withdraw it immediately.

There is absolutely no evidence in Conor74’s posts of him defending Liverpool fans actions that night - none.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

With respect, this is nonsense.

Of course one can say the Liverpool fans involved in rioting caused the deaths of Italian fans, and the negligence of those organising the game contributed. It's not an either/or. Blame can be allocated in many directions, and can also have a hierarchy, the negligence of those responsible for the condition of the stadium does not absolve the criminal responsibility of the rioting fans.

There are plenty of analogies. People have repeatedly called for a new Inquiry into the Stardust because of the condition of the building, flammable material, locked exits etc. Now, obviously the fire itself was possibly arson, that was the original finding anyway. But by your logic the breaches of fire regulations that have caused the families much grief would be simply ignored, as relevant as the weather...

Interesting analogy re Stardust, thanks for sharing. The root cause of the deaths there was fire. Certainly the poor safety and housekeeping of the nightclub contributed to the death toll however fire is not sentient, it does not choose what it does, whether deliberately started or an accident, the end result is the same given the condition of the club.

Humans, most of us anyway, are sentient, we make decisions and take actions. The fans that day chose to attack those other fans, that was the root cause of the 39 deaths. If they did not then its highly unlikely the events would have unfolded the way they did, regardless of the condition of the stadium. It's a different scenario to Stardust.

On reflection, I will concede that the death toll in Heysel might not have been as high if the stadium was in better shape. Conversely though, it could also have been higher had the walls been sturdier, as I previously said, if the wall had not given way some may not have had an escape route. Anyway, I've said my piece so will leave it at that, I have my opinions and others have theirs and never the twain shall meet.

From a Times article by Oliver Kay;

"Jacques Georges, the Uefa president at the time, and Hans Bangerter, his general secretary, were threatened with imprisonment but eventually given conditional discharges. Albert Roosens, the former secretary-general of the Belgian Football Union (BFU), was given a six-month suspended prison sentence for “regrettable negligence” with regard to ticketing arrangements. So was gendarme captain Johan Mahieu, who was in charge of the policing the stands at Heysel. “He made fundamental errors,” Pierre Verlynde, the judge, said. “He was far too passive. I find his negligence extraordinary.”

In 1989, after a five-month trial in Brussels, 14 of the 26 Liverpool supporters who stood trial were found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and given a three-year prison sentence, suspended for 18 months, and each ended up serving about a year in total in behind bars. The remaining 10 defendants were acquitted of manslaughter, but some had their £2,000 bail money confiscated, having been absent for part of the trial. And civil damages estimated at more than £5million were provisionally awarded to families of the Heysel victims against the convicted fans and the BFU."

This shows that Liverpool fans were responsible for the deaths. A contributory factor was the planning of the event by UEFA and the Belgian FA, and poor policing. While the crumbling wall was one issue, the holes in the exterior walls another, a bigger issue was the chicken wire fence separating the two sets of supporters which was too easily breached. Back in the 80's, all this was a recipe for disaster. Similar trouble happened the previous year in Rome (yes, again involving Liverpool fans) - little is heard about it because the stadium was better equipped to deal with the issue and the trouble was contained resulting in no deaths.

There's a reason why organisations are expected to organise, police are expected to police and supporters are expected to behave. Once tasks are assigned to any group involved in a public event, there is a responsibility bestowed. Everything broke down at Heysel and 39 people died - predominantly because of Liverpool fans rioting, with organisational errors as a contributory factor.