Munster vs Racing 92, Sat 23rd Nov 5:30pm, BT Sport

prawnsambo · 24-11-2019 1:05pm

jr86 wrote: »

It baffles me they would play George, Mako etc if they weren't at all bothered about Europe.

Why would it baffle you? It's not decision time yet. And these are useful matches to re-integrate their England players after the RWC.

sydthebeat · 24-11-2019 1:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Saracens absolutely do not want to play knock out European rugby when they are in serious danger of relegation.

I just don't see them paying anything other than lip service to the competition this year and on occasion using the games to get players upto fitness / integrated.

I'll be stunned if they are in the knock outs.

they are still third favs for the competition, behind leinster and toulouse.

24-11-2019 1:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Saracens absolutely do not want to play knock out European rugby when they are in serious danger of relegation.

I just don't see them paying anything other than lip service to the competition this year and on occasion using the games to get players upto fitness / integrated.

I'll be stunned if they are in the knock outs.

You must have a direct line to them. Maybe you could find out why a number of their first team were playing against the Ospreys yesterday, a game their academy could probably win.

prawnsambo · 24-11-2019 1:31pm

jr86 wrote: »

It's very unlikely - despite the deduction -that Saracens are in serious threat of relegation, no matter how much McCall wants to play the poor mouth and the woe is us card. They're an outstanding side who I'd expect to only lose 3 games max for the remainder of the season and that'll still comfortably see them surviving, given bonus points etc

They lost six matches last season. You seem to think that they can do better than that this year with the likes of Northampton, Bristol and Exeter at least providing a stern challenge? And they barely beat LI at home a couple of weeks ago.

prawnsambo · 24-11-2019 1:33pm

Peter Thousands Loudspeaker wrote: »

You must have a direct line to them. Maybe you could find out why a number of their first team were playing against the Ospreys yesterday, a game their academy could probably win.

To re-integrate them after the RWC? I would have thought that it was essential that they start bringing them back in.

24-11-2019 1:47pm

Peter Thousands Loudspeaker wrote: »

Maybe you could find out why a number of their first team were playing against the Ospreys yesterday

Because they've a must win game next week.

jr86 · 24-11-2019 1:50pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

They lost six matches last season. You seem to think that they can do better than that this year with the likes of Northampton, Bristol and Exeter at least providing a stern challenge? And they barely beat LI at home a couple of weeks ago.

They were extremely comfortable all last season they'll obviously be going much more gung ho this year and play full strength far more

jr86 · 24-11-2019 1:50pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

They lost six matches last season. You seem to think that they can do better than that this year with the likes of Northampton, Bristol and Exeter at least providing a stern challenge? And they barely beat LI at home a couple of weeks ago.

They were extremely comfortable all last season they'll obviously be going much more gung ho this year and play full strength far more

prawnsambo · 24-11-2019 2:20pm

jr86 wrote: »

They were extremely comfortable all last season they'll obviously be going much more gung ho this year and play full strength far more

I have absolutely no idea what 'gung ho' means in this context. Are you suggesting that they'll flog their top players more? Because that's really going to work out for them I'm sure. They struggle during the international windows. Won two and lost two in that period this year. But the Prem season is going to be compressed this season because of the RWC. So they'll actually be playing an extra match during the 6N period next year. And virtually no breaks. Just match after match after match. Premiership and Europe, one after the other.

shootermacg · 24-11-2019 3:48pm

Not at all bad on rewatching.

Racing didn't score a single point for the last 30 minutes of the game. Their only score in the second half came from Russel identifying that Loughman was injured, although PoM should have made that tackle.

We also had a few missed chances in that game.

Racing made 202 tackles to Munster's 98.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats?gameId=295311&league=271937

Shefwedfan · 24-11-2019 5:10pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Saracens England players can only play 30 games this season. Most have already played 9 or 10 games and will also be involved in the 6Ns. That leaves them available for 15-16 Saracens games. They're not going to play their full complement in Europe because they need to win Premiership matches more than they need to win in Europe.

Yes before they got the fine it was the same....it’s not like suddenly they have restricted the number of games for England players

Are we saying now that suddenly Saracens haven’t built a squad capable of playing in both competitions?

They would have planned to win both this season, now they can only win one tournament and people think they are going to throw it?

prawnsambo · 24-11-2019 5:26pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes before they got the fine it was the same....it’s not like suddenly they have restricted the number of games for England players

Are we saying now that suddenly Saracens haven’t built a squad capable of playing in both competitions?

They would have planned to win both this season, now they can only win one tournament and people think they are going to throw it?

Yes, but now they have more games without their England players and a condensed season. And are currently on -22 points in the GP. And nobody's suggesting that they're going to throw the HEC now. The issue is if they lose another game. Because then they've only an outside chance of making the playoffs. And that's where they have to make a decision as they have absolutely no rest time for their big players if they have to perform on two fronts.

Between now and the end of the year, they have Bath away, Munster away and home, Bristol home and Exeter away. No break whatsoever. Games every weekend.

Shefwedfan · 24-11-2019 5:54pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Between now and the end of the year, they have Bath away, Munster away and home, Bristol home and Exeter away. No break whatsoever. Games every weekend.

Yes but they had that before the fine/points deduction.....they have known about this run of games for months

prawnsambo · 24-11-2019 6:07pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes but they had that before the fine/points deduction.....they have known about this run of games for months

It's the points deduction coupled with the condensed season that's the problem. They lost six games last season. They could cope with losing a few more this season. But they can't now. Three more losses would put them roughly on the same points as Newcastle had last season. And there are arguably more competitors for the top this season.

bennyl10 · 24-11-2019 6:18pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes but they had that before the fine/points deduction.....they have known about this run of games for months

Yes but before relegation wasn’t in any way a realistic possibility.
It is now.

They can’t risk not winning those premiership games.

aloooof · 24-11-2019 8:51pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes before they got the fine it was the same....it’s not like suddenly they have restricted the number of games for England players

Are we saying now that suddenly Saracens haven’t built a squad capable of playing in both competitions?

They would have planned to win both this season, now they can only win one tournament and people think they are going to throw it?

The consequence of not winning the CC is that they won't be in it next season. The consequence of not staying in the Premiership is far, far worse for them. That has to be their priority.

That said, I think they'll still field a very strong team in the first game in Thomond. The strength of the team they field the following week at home could well depend on the result of the game in Thomond.

It'd make things really interesting if Bath beat them on Friday tho...

aloooof · 24-11-2019 9:15pm

Didn't quite know whether to be happy or disappointed at full-time, but given we were pinned back in our 22 with the score 14-21 for so much of the 2nd half, I think we have to be happy enough with that. Thought JJ could've went for the drop a few phases earlier, but the conversion to level it was class.

Some really good performances tho, and there's definitely a marked difference in our style as compared to last year already. Thought JJ was very threatening, as was Haley. He's clearly been given licence to counter-attack (and he's also got some boot on him). We seemed to make quite a few line breaks.

Was actually a bit surprised to read this:

Deleted User wrote: »

Beirne best of the forwards.

Aside from one turnover, I thought he was quiet (but that could just be the case of missing stuff at the match that you see on the TV).

Thought POM was poor up until about 60 minutes. (Loughman was on one leg but still think POM could've done better for that tackle). Billy Holland was his usual dependable self when he came on. The lineout is a worry tho. I think we did the short-low one to the front 3 times, and it didn't particularly work.

For Racing, Finn Russell is so hard to play when in that form and Teddy Thomas is a class apart. Mad to think France left him at home.

Huge game against Saracens now. I think we can win, but I don't see us getting a 4-0 or 5-1 that might dissuade them from fielding a weakened team the following week. We should all be shouting for Bath this coming Friday tho.

phog · 25-11-2019 11:06am

We were probably lucky to draw it but unlucky not to win it, they scored 3 good tries and had they got that penalty kick later in the game then I think we'd never have caught them but once Conway scored then I thought we had the beating of them.

Only thing I'd say on JJ drop goal attempt was it was attempted too early, the game had to end with it. I thought he a great game.

I haven't seen any of the game on TV but to me while we won the penalty count I thought there were a few times the ref was very lenient to Racing at a few scrums, rucks and offside, in saying that I thought we got away with 2 high tackles.

thomond2006 · 25-11-2019 11:35am

phog wrote: »

Only thing I'd say on JJ drop goal attempt was it was attempted too early, the game had to end with it.

It makes more sense to me to do what they did, though that's unlikely the reason JJ stepped up at that stage. Attempt it with a few seconds left and you get the ball back for another go if you miss. You run the risk of losing the ball (which happened!) but Munster still had a second chance with possession.

Henry Ford III · 25-11-2019 2:27pm

Munster were a bit fortunate to get a draw imho. Racing's tries were classy.

JJH played well, but he really should have gotten that drop goal at the death. It wasn't a hard kick and he made a real mess of it.

phog · 25-11-2019 3:17pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Munster were a bit fortunate to get a draw imho. Racing's tries were classy.

JJH played well, but he really should have gotten that drop goal at the death. It wasn't a hard kick and he made a real mess of it.

Racing kicked the ball behind our try three times late in the game, I don't know why they didn't keep ball in hand to try get the BP win.

I blame the forwards, they gave him very little cover for the DG, someone had to the guard between him and the Racing chasers, in saying that I thought he should have done better but aside from that kick and a missed conversion he really had a very good game.

Riskymove · 25-11-2019 3:22pm

phog wrote: »

Racing kicked the ball behind our try three times late in the game, I don't know why they didn't keep ball in hand to try get the BP win.

perhaps you hadn't noticed all the talk about the fitness of these French teams and the last 20 mins or so being crucial

imo its a correct view - of Racing anyway and held up again on Saturday. It is why Munster almost won a game they never should have been near winning

it is their Achilles heel for some time and why I am sceptical for them or Clermont to win the ECR

Toulouse very different and are showing a much higher level of fitness and stamina

aloooof · 25-11-2019 3:29pm

It must be JJ's best performance in Europe for us, I'd say? He's had moments before (thinking back to the break against Perpignan, for example) but I can't remember too many games where he looked as threatening throughout as he did on Saturday.

25-11-2019 4:08pm

aloooof wrote: »

It must be JJ's best performance in Europe for us, I'd say? He's had moments before (thinking back to the break against Perpignan, for example) but I can't remember too many games where he looked as threatening throughout as he did on Saturday.

I thought the drawing of that game came down to a huge defensive effort for 20 minutes in the second half while Racing threw the absolute kitchen sink at Munster and to be fair to JJ he was good both sides of the ball.

JJ's problem isn't his talent or ability, it's his consistency. He went well on Saturday though and I reckon the new coaching ticket might be working for him.

Shefwedfan · 25-11-2019 7:34pm

aloooof wrote: »

It must be JJ's best performance in Europe for us, I'd say? He's had moments before (thinking back to the break against Perpignan, for example) but I can't remember too many games where he looked as threatening throughout as he did on Saturday.

He was MoM in game last season, can't remember who it was against in Europe....next week he got dropped for Carbery!!!

I might have said before give him a run of games and see how he gets on.....due mostly to injruy to Carbery he has had the chance and done brill so far....

shootermacg · 25-11-2019 9:36pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Munster were a bit fortunate to get a draw imho. Racing's tries were classy.

You could say that but..here's my take.

I feel that Racing should have seen a yellow for persistent ****-housery around the ruck.

Loughman should be commended for joining the line. But at the same time he absolutely should not have joined the line. He left a gap for Russel to run through, although PoM should still have made the tackle.

Russel's nutmeg should also never have happened. Scannell should have nailed him regardless of what he did with his feet. Prior to that Scannell won a perfectly valid turn-over.

For TT,'s kick and gather, Earls should have nailed him.

We missed a try chance when JJ knocked on (should have just recycled it, we were getting good results in their 5M), Conway also had a ball ripped in the tackle on the 5M line. If JoD's pass goes in front of Scannell that's a try.

So we had plenty of chances. They had chances. We missed a kick and a drop goal, they missed a kick. I also thought Racing faded in the final 10 minutes.

They're likely to win at home with the artificial pitch and I'd be afraid of their scrum on that surface. They have their 9 and 4 to come back for the next game.

So the advantage is definitely with Racing, but there's always a chance.

aloooof · 26-11-2019 9:37am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

He was MoM in game last season, can't remember who it was against in Europe....next week he got dropped for Carbery!!!

I still think this was the right decision tho; Carbery had been a level above him since he arrived.

The match you mention was the Castres home game, where Munster won 30-5. Carbery came back in the away leg, his first game back from injury and admittedly played poorly. I've mentioned the following point before tho, so quick copy and paste:

for the next spell of games he was brilliant; his next 4 starts were against Leinster, Connacht, Gloucester and Exeter. We won all 4 and he got MOTM in 2. He went on a run of about 5 games without missing a penalty. Gloucester in particular, he was superb.

aloooof · 26-11-2019 9:55am

Good post, couple of things to add:

shootermacg wrote: »

Russel's nutmeg should also never have happened. Scannell should have nailed him regardless of what he did with his feet. Prior to that Scannell won a perfectly valid turn-over.

I thought Racing had penalty avdantage from the previous ruck? Cian Tracey mentioned something like Scannell had gotten himself involved, arguing the decision and may have been momentarily distracted from that.

shootermacg wrote: »

For TT,'s kick and gather, Earls should have nailed him.

I haven't seen it back on TV, but my memory here is that Earls got sucked in as the 2nd tackler on Zebo along with Scannell and that's where the space came from? Think it was Haley trying to block it down, didn't think Earls was too much to blame there (but as I said, I haven't seen it back).

shootermacg wrote: »

They're likely to win at home with the artificial pitch and I'd be afraid of their scrum on that surface. They have their 9 and 4 to come back for the next game.

So the advantage is definitely with Racing, but there's always a chance.

Jerry Flannery had an interesting point last week about the 4G pitch; it doesn't absorb as much energy when you're running so attacking players can carry more momentum into the tackle, so it generally favours the attacking team, whereas grass is more 50/50. And also implications for the scrum.

I'd agree, it'll be a tough ask getting anything over there.

26-11-2019 10:05am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVuDZOHTSfk

Munster vs Racing 92, Sat 23rd Nov 5:30pm, BT Sport

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