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Fundraiser for student nurses

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    #32
    cruizer101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    silver2020 wrote: »
    Remember these students get near free excellent training through college.
    They also get their grants (like most students)

    Everyone has access to free 3rd level education (its not really free but thats a different matter) and everyone has the same potential access to grants regardless of college course (a lot of people not eligible for grants wouldn't have a whole lot of money), so I don't really see the relevance of these points.
    silver2020 wrote: »
    They also get allowances - both travel & accommadation

    They do get some allowances but nowhere near enough to cover costs, they often have to do placements in other hospitals and the allowances do not cover the accommodation costs for this.
    silver2020 wrote: »
    Final year nursing students who do some clinical work get about 20k a year.

    Some? 36 weeks of fulltime work, which they get paid about minimum wage.
    Again not sure how relevant this is, the argument for paying students nurses isn't really for the final year ones.
    silver2020 wrote: »
    Those not in final year do very basic "minding" work when on placements.

    Fair enough the first years who are in for very short placements aren't doing a huge amount but in later years there is not insignificant responsibilities.
    silver2020 wrote: »
    Next student gardai will want payment (that is as sure as night following day), student teachers (100% certain too).

    Students gardai are paid to the best of my knowledge.
    One big difference compared to teachers is students teachers are in excess to the paid teaching staff, if they weren't there it wouldn't matter, they are not relied upon to be there as there is a full time teacher there anyway.
    Student nurses are relied upon as an extra staff member, they are timetabled to be in as a fully working member of staff.


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    #33
    YellowLead
    Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭YellowLead


    AMKC wrote: »
    Even if 500,000 people donated €5 every two weeks, that would give the student nurses €600 each a week on top of their €100. I wouldn't miss €2.50 per week.

    Surely an extra 600 a month would do them. They would not know what to do with on extra 600 a week. That's like 2400 extra a month on top of the 400 they get. 600 a month and the 400 they get is a grand. You do not want to be earning too much to soon and then end up going on a lower pay at some stage later on. Better for it to be the other way. A grand a month would be plenty for them.

    Yeah but there isn’t a hope in hell you would get 500k people to donate 10 a month.


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    #34
    the beer revolu
    Registered Users Posts: 16,800 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    Student nurses are relied upon as an extra staff member, they are timetabled to be in as a fully working member of staff.

    Don't the HSE dispute that this is the case?


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    #35
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,205 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    the beer revolu wrote: »
    Don't the HSE dispute that this is the case?

    I'm sure they do. Would you believe them?


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    #36
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭weisses


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Are any of the bullet points they posted incorrect? If they are, would you like to post the correct info? Seems like the opposite of waffle to me.

    Yes they are incorrect or partly incorrect ...The correct information is readily available though ... That's why I said the post was waffle. If you cannot be arsed to do a small bit of research before making a post like that I feel not inclined to type a rebuttal ... But I wil try to address some of the points made with the current covid crisis in mind

    1. There is a significant cohort of students who are paying fees because this is not their first third level course.

    2. Allowances are laughable (50 euro a week) and have not been revised since 2004 ...Many places are not offering accommodations to STN anymore because of covid I pay 50 euro per night while on placement ..Travel expenses are basically non existent

    3 Grands are given on a case to case basis .... I know plenty of students who are not getting a grand or only a small portion

    4 Cheap shot stating 4th years doing "some" clinical work ...Majority of interns I know are currently working on covid wards and are dealing with their own case load depending from 2-8 patients at a time ...

    5. Another cheap dig ..We are not doing "basic minding" work.. Based on the ward We are doing patient observations, performing ECG's washing patient's, feeding them, doing wound care, incontinence care, we are there to lend an ear when patients are going through a rough patch plus so many more tasks. Nurses are up the walls due to COVID so logically more responsibility falls on the student nurse while on placement.


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    #37
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,205 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    weisses wrote: »
    Yes they are incorrect or partly incorrect ...The correct information is readily available though ... That's why I said the post was waffle. If you cannot be arsed to do a small bit of research before making a post like that I feel not inclined to type a rebuttal ... But I wil try to address some of the points made with the current covid crisis in mind

    1. There is a significant cohort of students who are paying fees because this is not their first third level course.

    2. Allowances are laughable (50 euro a week) and have not been revised since 2004 ...Many places are not offering accommodations to STN anymore because of covid I pay 50 euro per night while on placement ..Travel expenses are basically non existent

    3 Grands are given on a case to case basis .... I know plenty of students who are not getting a grand or only a small portion

    4 Cheap shot stating 4th years doing "some" clinical work ...Majority of interns I know are currently working on covid wards and are dealing with their own case load depending from 2-8 patients at a time ...

    5. Another cheap dig ..We are not doing "basic minding" work.. Based on the ward We are doing patient observations, performing ECG's washing patient's, feeding them, doing wound care, incontinence care, we are there to lend an ear when patients are going through a rough patch plus so many more tasks. Nurses are up the walls due to COVID so logically more responsibility falls on the student nurse while on placement.

    does this article sum up the real situation? https://www.thejournal.ie/students-nurses-payment-issue-unpaid-placements-5291130-Dec2020/


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    #38
    Paulzx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,967 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    Montage of Feck wrote: »
    How about paying the teachers the pup rates like everyone else and give the savings to the nurses.

    So everyone working from home should be on PUP?

    Cool idea


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    #39
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭weisses


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    does this article sum up the real situation? https://www.thejournal.ie/students-nurses-payment-issue-unpaid-placements-5291130-Dec2020/

    It does to an extend, situation for Students deteriorated even more I think


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    #40
    TheSegal
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭TheSegal


    Montage of Feck wrote: »
    How about paying the teachers the pup rates like everyone else and give the savings to the nurses.

    Why would you give teachers the PUP rate? They are working from home teaching classes, should everyone who isn't in an office right now be given the PUP, sure we are all at home so we must be doing **** all work right?


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    #41
    2lazytogetup
    Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭2lazytogetup


    nurses are a funny bunch.

    Talk to a 17year old putting nursing as first choice on the CAO. EVeryone warns them and tells them its tough work and the pay isn't great. But they are idealists and want to help people.

    So they become nurses, and after a few years of caring, their priorities change, family, mortgage etc, and they realise they need money.

    So they go on strike for more money. and the government hates giving into them cause when they do, gardai and teachers union will go on strike too seeing the nurses got more. And its hard for the government to say no, cause everyone loves nursese, even pre covid. just talk to anyone going into hospital and they are so grateful of the hard work they do.

    its a catch-22. i do think a full report is needed. dont think one example of a nurse saying she has no phone credit as she needed to pay for a bus to work should decide Irelands public sector pay policy.


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    #42
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    TheSegal wrote: »
    Why would you give teachers the PUP rate? They are working from home teaching classes, should everyone who isn't in an office right now be given the PUP, sure we are all at home so we must be doing **** all work right?

    How much work/effort each teacher is putting in seems to vary wildly. Many people WFH are able to work, just as, if not more efficiently from home. The same work is still getting done, if not more (in my case, my team and many other people/companies i know). That is clearly not the case with teachers, how could it be if there's so many calls for the LC to be scrapped. You simply cannot provide the same level of quality teaching remotely, to that many students. The younger they are, the more difficult it is id wager too.


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    #43
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    Student nurses are relied upon as an extra staff member, they are timetabled to be in as a fully working member of staff.

    Are you saying that 1st and 2nd year nursing students are rostered as full staff members?


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    #44
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,293 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Excellent idea, OP.

    They should be paid a full wage when on work experience at the best of times, but not being paid a full wage during a pandemic...a scandal. Absolutely shameful.

    huh?

    what's a "full wage"?

    relative to who or what?


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    #45
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    silver2020 wrote: »
    Remember these students get near free excellent training through college.

    They also get allowances - both travel & accommadation

    They also get their grants (like most students)

    Final year nursing students who do some clinical work get about 20k a year.

    Those not in final year do very basic "minding" work when on placements.


    Next student gardai will want payment (that is as sure as night following day), student teachers (100% certain too).

    Sure feck it, lets pay all students massive salaries whilst in college + grants + allowances + free education. - Who's volunteering a 5% increase in PAYE and the dropping of tax allowances of about 20% to pay for this?


    The nursing union have some very good mouthpieces and far topo many people believe every word out of the union's mouth with questioning it. they play the sympathy card as well as those sh1te ads on tv for concern, trocaire and dogs trust.

    Stop posting rubbish. Shure arent the nurses great. I saw one doing her shopping in Tesco the other day. She's so busy she didnt have time to change out of her uniform.


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    #46
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Mimon


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I read a headline in today's Independent where a student nurse had to decide between topping up her Leapcard or eating. They are working for €100 a week.

    If there were to be an ongoing fundraiser to supplement student nurses income, what would be a good way to do it? At least until such a time that we are through the pandemic.

    Considering that they are working at the frontline of the biggest pandemic we have ever seen, in a very dangerous environment every day, surely there must be a way where the country could do a whip-around. If half a million people contributed €5, the price of a pint, that is €2.5 million. Considering that there is approx 2,000 student nurses (correct me if Im wrong), that would work out at €1,250 per nurse. Even if 500,000 people donated €5 every two weeks, that would give the student nurses €600 each a week on top of their €100. I wouldn't miss €2.50 per week.

    I think we owe it to them, it would be good a way to show gratitude for their efforts.

    Christ the quality of topics on boards has gone to ****e.


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    #47
    Paulzx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,967 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    givyjoe wrote: »
    How much work/effort each teacher is putting in seems to vary wildly. Many people WFH are able to work, just as, if not more efficiently from home. The same work is still getting done, if not more (in my case, my team and many other people/companies i know). That is clearly not the case with teachers, how could it be if there's so many calls for the LC to be scrapped. You simply cannot provide the same level of quality teaching remotely, to that many students. The younger they are, the more difficult it is id wager too.

    There's plenty of people swinging the lead working from home across the board including teachers.

    To try and make out that everyone working from home apart from teachers are diligent worker bees 100% commited to the hive is laughable.

    Sure before Covid i had mates in the IT sector playing golf midweek with me who used to laugh that they were "working from home"


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    #48
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Paulzx wrote: »
    There's plenty of people swinging the lead working from home across the board including teachers.

    To try and make out that everyone working from home apart from teachers are diligent worker bees 100% commited to the hive is laughable.

    Sure before Covid i had mates in the IT sector playing golf midweek with me who used to laugh that they were "working from home"
    That's completely and utterly irrelevant and down to managers to sort out, it's fairly easy to spot. You either do work or you dont, you have output to show your boss or you dont. The point is those folks can work just as effectively from home, teachers cannot, no matter how hard they work. Whether they (non teachers) choose to or not is a different story but there's also a consequence if they dont. There seems to be absolutely no consequences for teachers who choose to not bother their arse.


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    #49
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    2lazytogetup wrote: »
    nurses are a funny bunch.

    Talk to a 17year old putting nursing as first choice on the CAO. EVeryone warns them and tells them its tough work and the pay isn't great. But they are idealists and want to help people.

    So they become nurses, and after a few years of caring, their priorities change, family, mortgage etc, and they realise they need money.

    So they go on strike for more money. and the government hates giving into them cause when they do, gardai and teachers union will go on strike too seeing the nurses got more. And its hard for the government to say no, cause everyone loves nursese, even pre covid. just talk to anyone going into hospital and they are so grateful of the hard work they do.

    its a catch-22. i do think a full report is needed. dont think one example of a nurse saying she has no phone credit as she needed to pay for a bus to work should decide Irelands public sector pay policy.

    Like every other job there are different levels of effort required.
    Front line A and E dealing with all types of emergencies,
    strokes, accidents, assault victims, druggie dirtbirds, spunkers etc.
    Ward nurses, pre op, post op, I.C.U. Cancer patients etc

    Then the handy numbers, taking blood, assisting in the X Ray dept, etc.

    If student nurses are actually doing full time nurses duties certainly they deserve payment. However lets not pretend that anything other is nothing but a money grab. It wasnt paid work before the pandemic and it shouldnt be paid work now.
    The Nursing Unions agitated for a degree course which is student based for four years. Having got it the training of nurses changed. They moved away from the days of the "tyrant" matron checking their turnout and how good they made up the beds and empty chamber pots. Having said that I know a lot of older nurses who speak very fondly and highly of the same "tyrant matron"
    We had no MRSA in the wards then. The Specialists and Consultants wouldnt dare cross Matron.


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    #50
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,293 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Paulzx wrote: »
    There's plenty of people swinging the lead working from home across the board including teachers.

    To try and make out that everyone working from home apart from teachers are diligent worker bees 100% commited to the hive is laughable.

    Sure before Covid i had mates in the IT sector playing golf midweek with me who used to laugh that they were "working from home"

    that's entirely plausible and meaningless at the same time

    full time working from home as an IT professional means you could play golf in the morning and still be on the clock for a minimum of 8 hours a day


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    #51
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Set up an NGO. Ask the public for money. Pay yourself a handsome salary. Give whatever is left over to the nurses.


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    #52
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭weisses


    Boe Jiden wrote: »
    What makes nurses so special?

    Ask again after having your colonoscopy


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    #53
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Mimon


    What about nursing aids in nursing homes who will earn a pittance compared to a nurse and generally without the perks of being in a union, nice pension etc.


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    #54
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭weisses


    Boe Jiden wrote: »
    Why don't I ask the lads in the ESB who provide the electricity as well?

    I would if I were you... you don't want a blackout while having a probe up your arse


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    #55
    virginmediapls
    Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭virginmediapls


    Boe Jiden wrote: »
    What makes nurses so special?

    Your pay should scale upwards as (a) stress (b) level of responsibility (c) level of knowledge required goes upwards. Nurses have the most stress of any job, the highest level of responsbility - often taking on upwards of 20 patients by themselves straight out of college, and they require a level 8 degree to work. The fact that they are on the extreme upper-end of all of these metrics cannot possibly be refuted. They are absolutely not offered renumeration in line with this.

    This is not even taking into account the fact that they have to deal with death every single day, often have to work incredibly long hours for no pay, put themselves and their family in danger by working in close proximity to diseases - especially during the current pandemic. There's also the fact that they are forced to work within a system which is completely unfit for purpose (the HSE), their job is incredibly high-stress, they generally dont have regular working hours, they need to deal with all sorts of imbecilic gowls not just limited to the normal gowls you see walking around the place - gowls with mental health issues, gowls with gammy bowels and urinary systems who will **** and piss all over them, gowls with anger issues who will endeavour to hurt them without a moments notice, gowls who are suffering from dementia and think it is socially acceptable to try and sexually harrass them at any time during the day. Do I need to go on?

    When's the last time you got punched/shat on/pissed on/sexually harrassed at work? If you did, I'm sure you'd kick up a big fuss. For most nurses this isn't just a story - its a weekly occurance (daily on some wards). They work within a system which has allowed, and continues to allow this to happen - and it has done for decades. And they shouldn't be treated differently/thanked for their hard work? Especially after the past year? Get over yourself.

    I am not a nurse. I am one of the myriad of posters here who has the free time during my job to post up my thoughts on here. You will notice that there are no nurses replying to this post during their shift with such a privilege.

    Frankly, anyone who is speaking out against them getting paid more, or paying student nurses is, in my view, either (a) not educated/does not have enough exposure to the job/responsbilities of a nurse or (b) is a ****. The latter is far more common on this board and within this post.


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    #56
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭weisses


    Mimon wrote: »
    What about nursing aids in nursing homes who will earn a pittance compared to a nurse and generally without the perks of being in a union, nice pension etc.

    Agree.. pay is awful for HCA'S in nursing homes... it's the main reason for the high turnover of staff which leads to a lower quality of care imho


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    #57
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    virginmediapls wrote: »
    Your pay should scale upwards as (a) stress (b) level of responsibility (c) level of knowledge required goes upwards. Nurses have the most stress of any job, the highest level of responsbility - often taking on upwards of 20 patients by themselves straight out of college, and they require a level 8 degree to work. The fact that they are on the extreme upper-end of all of these metrics cannot possibly be refuted. They are absolutely not offered renumeration in line with this.

    This is not even taking into account the fact that they have to deal with death every single day, often have to work incredibly long hours for no pay, put themselves and their family in danger by working in close proximity to diseases - especially during the current pandemic. There's also the fact that they are forced to work within a system which is completely unfit for purpose (the HSE), their job is incredibly high-stress, they generally dont have regular working hours, they need to deal with all sorts of imbecilic gowls not just limited to the normal gowls you see walking around the place - gowls with mental health issues, gowls with gammy bowels and urinary systems who will **** and piss all over them, gowls with anger issues who will endeavour to hurt them without a moments notice, gowls who are suffering from dementia and think it is socially acceptable to try and sexually harrass them at any time during the day. Do I need to go on?

    I am not a nurse. I am one of the myriad of posters here who has the free time during my job to post up my thoughts on here. You will notice that there are no nurses replying during their shift with such a privilege.

    Frankly, anyone who is speaking out against them getting paid more, or paying student nurses is, in my view, either (a) not educated/does not have enough exposure to the job/responsbilities of a nurse or (b) is a ****. The latter is far more common on this board    .

    Eh, I dont think that's true even restricted to just medical jobs. I'd say anaesthetists would argue otherwise considering what an extreme delicate balancing act their role is, and the implications of them making a mistake.

    The other parts of post are also quite strange contradictory, you state you're not a nurse and just posting your opinion, earlier say your points cannot be refuted then go on to say anyone who disagrees with your POV is uneducated on the matter or a ***/something not complimentary. Strange post altogether.


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    #58
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Mimon


    weisses wrote: »
    Agree.. pay is awful for HCA'S in nursing homes... it's the main reason for the high turnover of staff which leads to a lower quality of care imho

    My sister had to quit as she tried her best to bring to managements attention the neglect imposed on the residents by some of her colleagues.

    There was a clique who would bully anyone who stood up to them. This clique for example would leave residents in dirty nappies all night for the day shift to sort out.

    Management ignored it.

    If you are doing a carers job properly it is harder than what most nurses have to deal with.


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    #59
    the beer revolu
    Registered Users Posts: 16,800 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    virginmediapls wrote: »
    Your pay should scale upwards as (a) stress (b) level of responsibility (c) level of knowledge required goes upwards. Nurses have the most stress of any job, the highest level of responsbility - often taking on upwards of 20 patients by themselves straight out of college, and they require a level 8 degree to work. The fact that they are on the extreme upper-end of all of these metrics cannot possibly be refuted. They are absolutely not offered renumeration in line with this.

    This is not even taking into account the fact that they have to deal with death every single day, often have to work incredibly long hours for no pay, put themselves and their family in danger by working in close proximity to diseases - especially during the current pandemic. There's also the fact that they are forced to work within a system which is completely unfit for purpose (the HSE), their job is incredibly high-stress, they generally dont have regular working hours, they need to deal with all sorts of imbecilic gowls not just limited to the normal gowls you see walking around the place - gowls with mental health issues, gowls with gammy bowels and urinary systems who will **** and piss all over them, gowls with anger issues who will endeavour to hurt them without a moments notice, gowls who are suffering from dementia and think it is socially acceptable to try and sexually harrass them at any time during the day. Do I need to go on?

    When's the last time you got punched/shat on/pissed on/sexually harrassed at work? If you did, I'm sure you'd kick up a big fuss. For most nurses this isn't just a story - its a weekly occurance (daily on some wards). They work within a system which has allowed, and continues to allow this to happen - and it has done for decades. And they shouldn't be treated differently/thanked for their hard work? Especially after the past year? Get over yourself.

    I am not a nurse. I am one of the myriad of posters here who has the free time during my job to post up my thoughts on here. You will notice that there are no nurses replying to this post during their shift with such a privilege.

    Frankly, anyone who is speaking out against them getting paid more, or paying student nurses is, in my view, either (a) not educated/does not have enough exposure to the job/responsbilities of a nurse or (b) is a ****. The latter is far more common on this board and within this post.

    Arguing that nurses are underpaid generally, compared to other professionals, is a whole different argument.
    That is not what is being discussed.

    Also a lot of your "facts" are merely opinions.


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    #60
    stoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭stoneill


    Student Nurse Only Fans - that would work.


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    #61
    Paulzx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,967 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    givyjoe wrote: »
    The point is those folks can work just as effectively from home, teachers cannot, no matter how hard they work.


    I'd like to know your alternative. What exactly do you want them to do? You seem highly critical that some teachers are not putting in the effort while teaching remotley yet you then say that they can't work effectively from home. There seems to be a contradiction there.

    What exactly do you want the education system to do?


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