Can we pool our knowledge regarding TAX and crypto and make some kind of FAQ/sticky?

GreeBo · 15-01-2018 5:05pm

forrestgolfer wrote: »

I am wondering what is the most efficient way of keeping my taxes to a minimum?

Why not just go the whole hog and pay nothing?

You are already planning tax evasion.

barneystinson · 15-01-2018 6:49pm

forrestgolfer wrote: »

I have been thinking about this one for a while now. I'm originally from Ireland, but have been living in the UK for the last 3 years. I am about to move to Australia and will then have bank accounts in 3 countries. I invested £2000 about 2 months ago and now have over £30000 in my account. The investment was done by way of deposits to coinbase through my UK bank account which I then moved onto binance and beyond. I am wondering what is the most efficient way of keeping my taxes to a minimum? I was thinking of utilising the £11,000 or so cap gains tax free allowance in the UK which would allow me to cash out roughly £13,000 (including my initial investment).

For the rest i was considering putting it into my coinbase euro wallet.
From there I was thinking I would deposit the sterling equivalent of €1000 into coinbase and then withdraw €1000 from coinbase into my irish account. Then i would withdraw the same amount back into my UK account. So from the UK side it looks like I've deposited and withdrawn the same amount from coinbase and made no profit. And from the Irish side I would be using coinbase as a currency exchange facility to transfer my savings home.
This plan probably has lots of holes but said I'd post it anyway to get some feedback.

My feedback would be that you seem to be looking for advice on your plan to evade tax...

sunrainmooncl · 16-01-2018 12:36am

So if I have about 60e profits in December. Do I need to fill out the CGT form and submit it to revenue?

I have asked this before but I got told "you definitely don't need to" and "you definitely do need to":P

lifeandtimes · 16-01-2018 12:51am

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

So if I have about 60e profits in December. Do I need to fill out the CGT form and submit it to revenue?

I have asked this before but I got told "you definitely don't need to" and "you definitely do need to":P

No because the first €1200 or so of profit is not subject to CGT.

Fakent.ie · 16-01-2018 1:16am

If i made my first investment in November 20th, When was I supposed to file a tax report and If I should of already where can I?

Peregrinus · 16-01-2018 2:31am

Fakent.ie wrote: »

If i made my first investment in November 20th, When was I supposed to file a tax report and If I should of already where can I?

Making an investment isn't a chargeable event and doesn't trigger a liablity to file or pay anything.

If you dispose of an investment on 20 Nov, and make a gain, and incur a liability to CGT, you need to calculate and pay the CGT by 15 Dec. This is accompanied by a payment slip which basically says "I've made one or more gains in the period from 1 January to 30 Nov. Here is the CGT for which I am liable. Here is my name. Here is my PPS number." This is not a full tax return and does not set out details of gains, or of the calculation of the CGT due.

By 31 October in the following year, you have to file a tax return. There are a couple of different forms which can be used to file a tax return, involving different levels of details, and if you are in doubt as to which one you should complete the Revenue will advise you. (They'll generally write and tell you even if you don't ask them but, if they don't, you can ask.)

Gach eolas anseo.

Fakent.ie · 16-01-2018 3:25am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Making an investment isn't a chargeable event and doesn't trigger a liablity to file or pay anything.

If you dispose of an investment on 20 Nov, and make a gain, and incur a liability to CGT, you need to calculate and pay the CGT by 15 Dec. This is accompanied by a payment slip which basically says "I've made one or more gains in the period from 1 January to 30 Nov. Here is the CGT for which I am liable. Here is my name. Here is my PPS number." This is not a full tax return and does not set out details of gains, or of the calculation of the CGT due.

By 31 October in the following year, you have to file a tax return. There are a couple of different forms which can be used to file a tax return, involving different levels of details, and if you are in doubt as to which one you should complete the Revenue will advise you. (They'll generally write and tell you even if you don't ask them but, if they don't, you can ask.)

Gach eolas anseo.

Well iv been trading most days since then but I didn't realize up until recently that i was supposed to report this as this is the first time I've ever did anything like this so since i first put euros into an exchange and bought on November 20th will it be okay to report it at the end of next year?

Peregrinus · 16-01-2018 3:43am

Fakent.ie wrote: »

Well iv been trading most days since then but I didn't realize up until recently that i was supposed to report this as this is the first time I've ever did anything like this so since i first put euros into an exchange and bought on November 20th will it be okay to report it at the end of next year?

if you only bought your first cryptocurrency on 20 Nov, even if you traded actively every day after that, at this point you only need to worry about trades that you made between 20 and 30 Nov - just ten days.

This is what you do:

1. Calculate all the gains and losses you made each time you sold crypto between 20 and 30 Nov.

2. Add up all the gains, and subtract all the losses. This give you your net chargeable gain.

3. If your net chargeable gain is less than EUR 1,270 (your annual small gains allowance) you're fine; you have no CGT liability in respect of gains made up to 30 Nov, and you had no obligation to make any payment by 15 Dec.

4. If your net chargeable gain exceeds EUR 1,270 then you do have a CGT liability and you are in default. You can do one of two things:

(A) You can calculate your CGT liablity and send off a payment now, accompanied by the appropriate payments slip and a covering letter explaining that you're new to the game, you've only just learned that you had a payment obligation by 15 Dec, you acknowledge that you are late, and you apologise. If the actual amount of your CGT liablity is modest, all will probably be well. At worst, they'll impose a nominal penalty for late payment. When you realise that you're in default, you're always better off to tell the Revenue this rather than wait until they notice it and tell you.

(B) You can take yourself and your calculations off to an accountant/tax adviser, and get him to deal with the Revenue on your behalf. Myself, I'd be inclined to do this if the CGT liablity was more than modest.

Whichever option you take, if you intend to continue in the crypto trading game, I think it's time you got some professional advice. Your failure to do so has already got you into a slightly embarrassing position; do not let this happen again.

Payment of any CGT liability you may have in respect of gains arising from further disposals in the period 1 Dec to 30 Dec is due by 15 April. Your new year resolution should be to go and see an adviser so that, before that date, you will understand how your tax liabilities are calculated, understand when payment is due, and have in place a system that tracks your affairs so that you can comply with your tax obligations in a timely fashion, and without drama.

Fakent.ie · 16-01-2018 4:43am

Peregrinus wrote: »

if you only bought your first cryptocurrency on 20 Nov, even if you traded actively every day after that, at this point you only need to worry about trades that you made between 20 and 30 Nov - just ten days.

This is what you do:

1. Calculate all the gains and losses you made each time you sold crypto between 20 and 30 Nov.

2. Add up all the gains, and subtract all the losses. This give you your net chargeable gain.

3. If your net chargeable gain is less than EUR 1,270 (your annual small gains allowance) you're fine; you have no CGT liability in respect of gains made up to 30 Nov, and you had no obligation to make any payment by 15 Dec.

4. If your net chargeable gain exceeds EUR 1,270 then you do have a CGT liability and you are in default. You can do one of two things:

(A) You can calculate your CGT liablity and send off a payment now, accompanied by the appropriate payments slip and a covering letter explaining that you're new to the game, you've only just learned that you had a payment obligation by 15 Dec, you acknowledge that you are late, and you apologise. If the actual amount of your CGT liablity is modest, all will probably be well. At worst, they'll impose a nominal penalty for late payment. When you realise that you're in default, you're always better off to tell the Revenue this rather than wait until they notice it and tell you.

(B) You can take yourself and your calculations off to an accountant/tax adviser, and get him to deal with the Revenue on your behalf. Myself, I'd be inclined to do this if the CGT liablity was more than modest.

Whichever option you take, if you intend to continue in the crypto trading game, I think it's time you got some professional advice. Your failure to do so has already got you into a slightly embarrassing position; do not let this happen again.

Payment of any CGT liability you may have in respect of gains arising from further disposals in the period 1 Dec to 30 Dec is due by 15 April. Your new year resolution should be to go and see an adviser so that, before that date, you will understand how your tax liabilities are calculated, understand when payment is due, and have in place a system that tracks your affairs so that you can comply with your tax obligations in a timely fashion, and without drama.

Luckily i fall under the first option where i didn't profit more then 1270 euro I wasn't really using the exchange much then as I was new to all of this and was hesitant but now 2.5 months later I am using exchanges a lot more frequently, So now any gains made between 1 Dec 2017 and 30th Dec 2017 I would owe to the revenue by 15th of April 2018?

How am I supposed to work out if i made a gain or loss in euro if it doesn't have the euro value here?
I am also confused with the words "disposed of" does that mean I have traded back to Euro or traded between currencies?

Looking online and it says January 31st 2018 is the cut of date for the "later period" of the year 1st Dec to the 31th, above you stated 15th April did i misread something?

Peregrinus · 16-01-2018 4:58am

It doesn't have to be immediately tradeable for euros in order to have a value capable of being expressed in euros. After all, you generally can't buy land in Japan with euros - they kind of expect Japanese yen, for some reason - but if an Irish resident makes a gain sellling land in Japan, they have to express that gain in euros for CGT purposes. They manage, somehow.

You wouldn't be trading in these things if you couldn't, ultimately, directly or indirectly, convert your gains into fiat currency (because what would be the point?). If your gains can be converted, directly or indirectly, into fiat currency, or into any tradeable items which can be sold for fiat currency, then they have a value which can be expressed in euros. And if your gain really can't be converted, directly or indirectly, into money or money's worth, why in God's name are you "trading" in these things? You could have saved yourself an awful lot of time and trouble just by taking the euros you originally invested and burning them instead.

After all, you told us that you started out by putting euros into an exchange and, somehow, you managed to convert those euros into a cryptocurrency which "doesn't have the euro value". Just reverse the process by which you assigned a euro value to the currency when you bought it to assign a euro value to it as at the date you sold it.

Fakent.ie · 16-01-2018 5:25am

Peregrinus wrote: »

It doesn't have to be immediately tradeable for euros in order to have a value capable of being expressed in euros. After all, you generally can't buy land in Japan with euros - they kind of expect Japanese yen, for some reason - but if an Irish resident makes a gain sellling land in Japan, they have to express that gain in euros for CGT purposes. They manage, somehow.

You wouldn't be trading in these things if you couldn't, ultimately, directly or indirectly, convert your gains into fiat currency (because what would be the point?). If your gains can be converted, directly or indirectly, into fiat currency, or into any tradeable items which can be sold for fiat currency, then they have a value which can be expressed in euros. And if your gain really can't be converted, directly or indirectly, into money or money's worth, why in God's name are you "trading" in these things? You could have saved yourself an awful lot of time and trouble just by taking the euros you originally invested and burning them instead.

After all, you told us that you started out by putting euros into an exchange and, somehow, you managed to convert those euros into a cryptocurrency which "doesn't have the euro value". Just reverse the process by which you assigned a euro value to the currency when you bought it to assign a euro value to it as at the date you sold it.

Am i disposing of the coins if I Buy euro/btc - btc/eth - eth/xrp - xrp/eth and then never going back to Euro

its not simple to work out out these transactions when you dont know the price of each coin in euro at the time.

if they just wanted to know how much i invested and how much i ended with it'd be so much easier whats wrong with doing that?

Peregrinus · 16-01-2018 6:41am

Fakent.ie wrote: »

Am i disposing of the coins if I Buy euro/btc - btc/eth - eth/xrp - xrp/eth and then never going back to Euro

Yes.

Fakent.ie wrote: »

its not simple to work out out these transactions when you dont know the price of each coin in euro at the time.

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the product, and so I'm not seeing the problem here. But don't all these cryptos have a generally-accepted, and widely-quoted, value in USD at any time? If so, then assigning a value in EUR to them is not exactly rocket science.

Fakent.ie wrote: »

if they just wanted to know how much i invested and how much i ended with it'd be so much easier whats wrong with doing that?

Because what you have here is a series of investments. Crypto A is a different asset from Crypto B - if they were the same asset, with the same investment characteristics, there would be no point in switching from Crypto A to Crypto B. Thus your acquisition and subsequent disposal of a holding of Crypto A is a separate investment transaction from your purchase and subsequent disposal of a holding in Crypto B, and the fact that you used the proceeds of the first investment to finance the second doesn't change this.

Yes, it would be much simpler if they simply looked at how many euros you originally put in, and how many you took out when you finally liquidated all your positions and cashed out, effectively deferring the taxation of your gain on each investment in crypto until you wind up all your investments in crypto. But the question is not "what's simpler?" but "what does the CGT legislation require?". And, generally, the CGT legislation does not allow you to defer paying tax on the gains of a particular investment on the basis that you are using the investment proceeds to make a new investment. And there are obvious public policy reasons why the legislation doesn't do this; you could defer paying any CGT at all for years or even decades. Why would that be a good idea?

GreeBo · 16-01-2018 12:08pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

No because the first €1200 or so of profit is not subject to CGT.

Wrong.
Did you even read revenue.ie?

https://www.revenue.ie/en/gains-gifts-and-inheritance/transfering-an-asset/how-do-you-pay-and-file-cgt.aspx wrote:

How do you file your CGT return?
You should file by 31 October in the year after the date of disposal. You must do this even if no tax is due because of reliefs or losses.

jobless · 16-01-2018 12:38pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Wrong.
Did you even read revenue.ie?

so any coin to coin trade that made profits need to be declared even if its below the threshold..... i wonder how strick they are on this.... Id say 0% of people have done this

asteroids over berlin · 16-01-2018 12:47pm

Interesting from about 6:30 mins in, obviously it's the UK taxation system but something to be aware of

lifeandtimes · 16-01-2018 12:47pm

jobless wrote: »

so any coin to coin trade that made profits need to be declared even if its below the threshold..... i wonder how strick they are on this.... Id say 0% of people have done this

I know, seems very intrusive "hey mr. Revenue, I made no profits this year" how would they even.

I don't doubt people have too just doesn't make sense

lifeandtimes · 16-01-2018 1:38pm

I just had a thought

If someone opened up a crypto store like a bookies for people to go in and lodge/trade fiat for crypto and withdraw fiat from their crypto?

How would that stand regarding tax?

Blacktie. · 16-01-2018 2:31pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

I just had a thought

If someone opened up a crypto store like a bookies for people to go in and lodge/trade fiat for crypto and withdraw fiat from their crypto?

How would that stand regarding tax?

You'd still have to pay taxes. Walking into a shop to do it doesn't remove your tax obligation.

GreeBo · 16-01-2018 2:37pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

I just had a thought

If someone opened up a crypto store like a bookies for people to go in and lodge/trade fiat for crypto and withdraw fiat from their crypto?

How would that stand regarding tax?

You are still wrongly equating CGT with cashing out into EUR.
CGT is due on disposal, and the word disposal has been explained multiple times already on this thread.

lifeandtimes · 16-01-2018 4:22pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

I just had a thought

If someone opened up a crypto store like a bookies for people to go in and lodge/trade fiat for crypto and withdraw fiat from their crypto?

How would that stand regarding tax?

Sorry I should have clarified I'm not referring to an individual, I mean with the shop itself. What tax does the shop have to pay.

My apologies for any confusion

GreeBo · 16-01-2018 4:48pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Sorry I should have clarified I'm not referring to an individual, I mean with the shop itself. What tax does the shop have to pay.

My apologies for any confusion

I'm not sure of the relevance of the question tbh?

ZeroThreat · 16-01-2018 4:48pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Sorry I should have clarified I'm not referring to an individual, I mean with the shop itself. What tax does the shop have to pay.

My apologies for any confusion

They're operating as a day to day business, so I reckon it would be either C.T. (12.5 %) assuming it was a limited company, or income tax if a sole trader.

lifeandtimes · 16-01-2018 4:50pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm not sure of the relevance of the question tbh?

What way would tax work for a store taking cash in exchange for crypto and vice versa. Are there any corporate rules they need to follow?

Would regulators even allow it? Obviously they would need records to ensure no money was being laundered.

lifeandtimes · 16-01-2018 4:51pm

ZeroThreat wrote: »

They're operating as a day to day business, so I reckon it would be either C.T. (12.5 %) assuming it was a limited company, or income tax if a sole trader.

Thanks that make a it bit more clearer for me

GreeBo · 16-01-2018 5:07pm

From https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-02/02-02-01.pdf

revenue wrote:

Companies capital gains (other than gains from disposals of development
land) are computed in accordance with capital gains tax principles.
Companies’ net chargeable gains are included in companies’ profits for
Corporation Tax purposes and are recalculated to give an amount which, when
charged at the corporation tax rate, produces the same tax result as if the net
gains were charged at the appropriate CGT rate (section 78 TCA).

ZeroThreat · 16-01-2018 5:39pm

GreeBo wrote: »

From https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-02/02-02-01.pdf

ah yes, forgot about that. Essentially they need to multiply by 33/12.5 to adjust figure before calculating CT so it works out the same.

You seem to be well up on all this stuff, part of your job I take it?

GreeBo · 16-01-2018 5:57pm

ZeroThreat wrote: »

ah yes, forgot about that. Essentially they need to multiply by 33/12.5 to adjust figure before calculating CT so it works out the same.

You seem to be well up on all this stuff, part of your job I take it?

TBH its all on revenue.ie, there seems to be something on this crypto forum against just reading the documentation provided.
I suspect it stems from people simply not wanting to pay CGT ( which I can understand)

At least with the current bloodshed any potential tax liability is much lower

:(

lostboy75 · 16-01-2018 6:10pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I suspect it stems from people simply not wanting to pay CGT ( which I can understand)

You have repeatedly said that people don't want to pay tax (who does!) Yet this thread was started to try and figure out how to pay it, and how to calculate it. Most people posting are asking questions about that. There is little evidence that people in this thread are only looking for ways to avoid it.

What we know:
Tax will have to be paid, but yet I still don't know how to calculate it, and neither do you. It's a calculated guess on everyone's behalf until revenue clarifies. Saying treat it as currency trading does make sense though for now.
I think everyone needs to carefully record every transaction. I wish I had thought to record the value of both traded currencies at the time of the trade to their dollar price. But I can go back and attempt that, and will record it going forward.

GreeBo · 16-01-2018 6:14pm

lostboy75 wrote: »

You have repeatedly said that people don't want to pay tax (who does!) Yet this thread was started to try and figure out how to pay it, and how to calculate it. Most people posting are asking questions about that. There is little evidence that people in this thread are only looking for ways to avoid it.

What we know:
Tax will have to be paid, but yet I still don't know how to calculate it, and neither do you. It's a calculated guess on everyone's behalf until revenue clarifies. Saying treat it as currency trading does make sense though for now.
I think everyone needs to carefully record every transaction. I wish I had thought to record the value of both traded currencies at the time of the trade to their dollar price. But I can go back and attempt that, and will record it going forward.

Why do you think it will *ever* be treated any differently than as currently laid out on revenue.ie?

Its not a guess at all (for the vast, vast majority of users and cases)
Continuing with this style of posting is just encouraging posters to not pay tax which could *severely* come back to haunt them with penalties.

What do you not know how to calculate exactly?

I cant suddenly stop paying tax on buying and selling houses because I think revenue should clarify some specific regulations regarding 4 storey, red brick houses in Ballsbridge.

lostboy75 · 16-01-2018 6:23pm

How do you take that from what I posted! I said tax had to be paid, but I'm uncertain on how to correctly do that.
And now your taking that to be another person who doesn't want to pay tax...

One poster even said his accountant wasn't sure on how to deal with it. If that doesn't mean there is confusion well what does?
I agreed with you that for now, treat it as currency trading.
But clarification from revenue would be helpful.

lifeandtimes · 16-01-2018 6:28pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Why do you think it will *ever* be treated any differently than as currently laid out on revenue.ie?

Its not a guess at all (for the vast, vast majority of users and cases

But you can't for 100% say that's the way it needs to be paid let's be honest here unless you actually workfor revenue and have specifically dealt with cryptocurrency. If not then Revenue have not specifically said this is the way to go about it.

Cryptocutrency is new territory and nobody here has come to explain a scenario where they made a lot of money and contacted revenue to pay tax and was then audited im detail.

Going by your model is fair enough at this point in time but you cant confirm this is the way it goes or will be for the future.

The only solid advice we can give is record every transaction, probably pay 33% over the threshold and ask revenue to 100% clarify where we go with this and release certified documentation about it, if you pay over your taxs in a year they give the surplus back to you, can't see why they wouldn't do the same here *IF* the 33% doesnt apply

Fakent.ie · 16-01-2018 7:39pm

So I'm not sure if people are familar with Binance one of the crypto exchanges but here is a picture I seen online showing 84 pages of ONLY trx(tron)transactions how is this person going to work out what he has to pay? https://gyazo.com/096490c8fea99327636faa02299c7aa5

not sure how to upload photos so i gyazod

sunrainmooncl · 16-01-2018 11:11pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Wrong.
Did you even read revenue.ie?

Jaysus got told two different things again.

"You must do this even if no tax is due because of reliefs or losses."

What does this mean?

The same page says

"Form CG1 - if you do not usually submit annual tax returns" (this is me)
"Form 12 - if you are a PAYE worker" (this is also me)

Downloading the Form CG1, it's a form for "Capital Gains Tax Return and Self-Assessment 2016". I guess this isn't what I need.

Downloading the Form 12, it's a form for "Tax Return for the year 2016"

I'm trying to give notice that I made about 60e profit in Dec 2017

(although now I haven't made any profit since the market has gone wallop)

Fakent.ie · 16-01-2018 11:21pm

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

Jaysus got told two different things again.

"You must do this even if no tax is due because of reliefs or losses."

What does this mean?

The same page says

"Form CG1 - if you do not usually submit annual tax returns" (this is me)
"Form 12 - if you are a PAYE worker" (this is also me)

Downloading the Form CG1, it's a form for "Capital Gains Tax Return and Self-Assessment 2016". I guess this isn't what I need.

Downloading the Form 12, it's a form for "Tax Return for the year 2016"

I'm trying to give notice that I made about 60e profit in Dec 2017 (although now I haven't made any profit since the market has gone wallop)

bubble popped panic sell everything you have report all losses to revenue....

GreeBo · 16-01-2018 11:25pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

But you can't for 100% say that's the way it needs to be paid let's be honest here unless you actually workfor revenue and have specifically dealt with cryptocurrency. If not then Revenue have not specifically said this is the way to go about it.

I can actually. Unless & until the law changes or revenue provide a different guide, the current guide is whats used. Any changes are not retrospective, so your tax liabilities from crypto up to and including 2017 are defined.

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Cryptocutrency is new territory and nobody here has come to explain a scenario where they made a lot of money and contacted revenue to pay tax and was then audited im detail.

Whats that got to do with anything though?
Revenue have published CGT guidelines. You have decided that you think Crypto is somehow different. Revenue & legislation hasnt, so its not different.

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Going by your model is fair enough at this point in time but you cant confirm this is the way it goes or will be for the future.

No one can confirm that for any type of taxes, sure tax rates change all the time. But what we do know, as above, is what the CGT situation was upto and including 2017/

lifeandtimes wrote: »

The only solid advice we can give is record every transaction, probably pay 33% over the threshold and ask revenue to 100% clarify where we go with this and release certified documentation about it, if you pay over your taxs in a year they give the surplus back to you, can't see why they wouldn't do the same here *IF* the 33% doesnt apply

If you pay 33% on profits and they later decide that this was in incorrect filing then of course you can claim back any difference owed to you.

GreeBo · 16-01-2018 11:26pm

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

I'm trying to give notice that I made about 60e profit in Dec 2017 (although now I haven't made any profit since the market has gone wallop)

FYI your 2017 gains are unchanged.
Since the crash perhaps you will have a loss to offset something against next year, but (unfortunately) even though it all may be worthless now, you owe CGT based on how you were on 31st Dec 2017.

Fakent.ie · 16-01-2018 11:53pm

GreeBo wrote: »

FYI your 2017 gains are unchanged.
Since the crash perhaps you will have a loss to offset something against next year, but (unfortunately) even though it all may be worthless now, you owe CGT based on how you were on 31st Dec 2017.

how is this person going to work out what he has to pay? https://gyazo.com/096490c8fea99327636faa02299c7aa5
84 pages of TRX transactions?

GreeBo · 17-01-2018 12:14am

Fakent.ie wrote: »

how is this person going to work out what he has to pay? https://gyazo.com/096490c8fea99327636faa02299c7aa5
84 pages of TRX transactions?

Hows is this a problem for anyone other than this person?

"I didnt keep proper records and now its too much effort for me" isnt really a valid reason to not pay taxes.

I'm not sure what answer you are looking for tbh?
"ok thats fine, you owe nothing"?

barneystinson · 17-01-2018 12:19am

Fakent.ie wrote: »

how is this person going to work out what he has to pay? https://gyazo.com/096490c8fea99327636faa02299c7aa5
84 pages of TRX transactions?

I'd say he'll have some work to do on that spreadsheet. How does anyone work out what tax they have to pay? By working it out.

sunrainmooncl · 17-01-2018 12:26am

GreeBo wrote: »

FYI your 2017 gains are unchanged.
Since the crash perhaps you will have a loss to offset something against next year, but (unfortunately) even though it all may be worthless now, you owe CGT based on how you were on 31st Dec 2017.

I understand that.

From revenue.ie:

Personal Exemption
The first €1,270 of your gain is exempt from CGT.

GreeBo · 17-01-2018 12:44am

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

From revenue.ie:

Personal Exemption
The first €1,270 of your gain is exempt from CGT.

Sorry but Im not sure what point you are making here?

sunrainmooncl · 17-01-2018 1:00am

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry but Im not sure what point you are making here?

You said I owe CGT on 60e profit?

nxbyveromdwjpg · 17-01-2018 1:19am

Fakent.ie wrote: »

how is this person going to work out what he has to pay? https://gyazo.com/096490c8fea99327636faa02299c7aa5
84 pages of TRX transactions?

He'd use the export trade history function we can see in the top right, and then import it back into cointracking.info

Fakent.ie · 17-01-2018 1:43am

Amirah Cold Cafe wrote: »

He'd use the export trade history function we can see in the top right, and then import it back into cointracking.info

yeh that doesn't have the euro value or usd value like some people are saying here AND it only goes back as far as 3 months.

Peregrinus · 17-01-2018 2:22am

Fakent.ie wrote: »

yeh that doesn't have the euro value or usd value like some people are saying here AND it only goes back as far as 3 months.

Yes, he'll have to put the EUR value into the spreadsheet himself.

Hey, if you find the tax compliance associated with a particular investment transaction too bothersome, don't enter into the transaction. But the system kind of assumes that most taxpayer are rational creatures; that they don't buy assets without having some sense of the value of what they are paying for them, and they don't sell assets without having some sense of the value of what they are getting for them. It assumes, in short, that your investment decisions -both buying and selling - are driven by the perceived value of the subject of the investment, and therefore a tax compliance requirement that requires a value to be assigned to the asset is not asking taxpayers to do something that, as rational investors, they would not be doing anyway.

Peregrinus · 17-01-2018 2:33am

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

Jaysus got told two different things again.

"You must do this even if no tax is due because of reliefs or losses."

What does this mean?

The same page says

"Form CG1 - if you do not usually submit annual tax returns" (this is me)
"Form 12 - if you are a PAYE worker" (this is also me)

The deal is this:

1. If you actually make a taxable gain, you have to report that you have made a gain, and pay the associated tax, pretty early on. If the gain is made beween 1 January and 30 November, then you pay by 15 December. For gains made between 1 December and 30 December, you pay by 15 April in the following year. Note that you don't have to lodge a full tax return at this point; just pay what you owe by way of CGT.

2. Strictly speaking, you don't have to make an income tax return at all, unless the Revenue ask you to. However if you have reported gains and paid CGT, they will ask you to. If you're a PAYE worker, odds are that they'll ask you to complete Form 12.

3. If for some reason they don't ask you to - and the most likely reason will be that you forgot, or were unaware of, your obligation to pay CGT, so they still don't know that you made any gains - then you are obliged to make a CGT return (but not an income tax retur) and you use form CGT 1.

4. But when you do this the Revenue will learn for the first time (a) that you made gains, and (b) that you defaulted on your payment obligation, and when they find this out they will probably ask for a full income tax return anyway. So you'll be back to Form 12.

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

I'm trying to give notice that I made about 60e profit in Dec 2017 (although now I haven't made any profit since the market has gone wallop)

Just to be clear; you didn't make chargeable gains of 60e in December if all you did was hold crypto which appreciated in value by 60e. No matter how much your crypto appreciates in value, you don't make any chargeable gains until you actually dispose of the crypto, and get the value of them (either in cash or in the form of another crypto or other assets) in return.

If you disposed of your crypto in December and got a 60e gain, good for you. But in that case the reason you made no gains since is not because the market has gone wallop; it's because you're not holding crypto or, if you only sold some of your crypto in December and still have the rest, because you haven't disposed of the crypto you are left with.

Market movements do not in themselves give rise to any gains or losses. Only disposals do.

You'll have a loss when you dispose of your remaning crypto if, and only if, you dispose of it for less than you acquired it for. Disposing of it for less than the price it would have commanded in December, had you disposed of it then, is not a loss.

17-01-2018 10:52am

Peregrinus wrote: »

3. If for some reason they don't ask you to - and the most likely reason will be that you forgot, or were unaware of, your obligation to pay CGT, so they still don't know that you made any gains - then you are obliged to make a CGT return (but not an income tax retur) and you use form CGT 1.

4. But when you do this the Revenue will learn for the first time (a) that you made gains, and (b) that you defaulted on your payment obligation, and when they find this out they will probably ask for a full income tax return anyway. So you'll be back to Form 12.

These points don't make any sense. revenues website clearly states that that CGT1 form is a perfectly legitimate way of making a CGT return yet you are associating it with someone who is defaulting on their CGT. Someone who otherwise makes no tax return and submits the CGT1 form on time is doing things completely by the book and I see no reason why you are alluding that it's only there for making late returns which will then lead to a form 12 being requested. That would make the CGT1 form pointless.

If a person doesn't normally make a tax return (which is the majority of PAYE workers) then I see no basis for your assumption that using the CGT1 form will inmediately lead to revenue requesting a form 12, there is no real reason why a person would not be allowed to continue to use the CGT1 form for making their CGT returns once everything is being done above board.

On the other thread you were talking about form 11 for PAYE workers which makes even less sense. Im no expert and I don't pretend to be but imo you are trying to give the impression that you know more than you actually do and stating things as facts that may not be.

ZeroThreat · 17-01-2018 11:25am

Angel Dead Apartment wrote: »

These points don't make any sense. revenues website clearly states that that CGT1 form is a perfectly legitimate way of making a CGT return yet you are associating it with someone who is defaulting on their CGT. Someone who otherwise makes no tax return and submits the CGT1 form on time is doing things completely by the book and I see no reason why you are alluding that it's only there for making late returns which will then lead to a form 12 being requested. That would make the CGT1 form pointless.

If a person doesn't normally make a tax return (which is the majorly it PAYE workers) then I see no basis for your assumption that using the CGT1 form will inmedialty lead to revenue requesting a form 12, there is no real reason why a person would not be allowed to continue to use the CGT1 form for making their CGT returns once everything is being done above board.

On the other thread you were talking about form 11 for PAYE workers which makes even less sense. Im no expert and I don't pretend to be but imo you are trying to give the impression that you know more than you actually do and stating things as facts that may not be.

yup, someone also incorrectly stated the other day that the deadline for payment of tax on capital disposals in the later period (1-31 Dec '17) was mid April 2018, but it's actually 31st January 2018.

Probably best you ask an accountant in person, not some keyboard warriors which boards.ie are flush with.

Interestingly, its obvious that the people here giving the most 'advice' and constantly insinuating those asking questions are trying to evade taxes don't seem to have any personal experience of buying from an exchange or trading cryptocurrencies themselves. (from what I've seen here)

If you ever peruse the other forums on boards.ie, anything relating to rental issues also tends to be full of various 'experts' all with conflicting advice claiming to be correct.

The crypto forum is fine for investing tips or light discussion, anything legal or tax related forget it. Why rely on the advice of people with anonymous monikers?

GreeBo · 17-01-2018 11:29am

ZeroThreat wrote: »

Interestingly, its obvious that the people here giving the most 'advice' and constantly insinuating those asking questions are trying to evade taxes don't seem to have any personal experience of buying from an exchange or trading cryptocurrencies themselves. (from what I've seen here)

LOL.

17-01-2018 2:07pm

The Oort Cloud wrote: »

Panama.

sublime1 wrote: »

This is exactly the low-effort kind of contribution I was trying to avoid in this discussion.

Another suggestion that someone pointed out to me is the idea of doing trades through a company structure. Seeing the low rates of corporate tax, this could be worth looking into. Has anyone any thoughts?

As a general rule, personal assets should not be held in limited companies as 12.5% rates of CT won't apply. However, if you are deemed to be trading (as in tax sense not the investor sense) then limited companies can be much more tax effective.

The same tax rules won't apply for everyone on this thread because some investors would be more active than others so the income is treated differently.

Can we pool our knowledge regarding TAX and crypto and make some kind of FAQ/sticky?

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