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Home attached battery storage solution

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13

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    #62
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,774 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    air wrote: »
    Used EV modules are a far better proposition if you can source them.
    I've been using several for years now.

    If you bought them years ago, you probably did well price wise. These days they are just ridiculously overpriced

    Agree with you that a small 18650 project is a cool thing to do as a hobby, but not so much as large scale home attached DIY storage


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    #63
    air
    Registered Users Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭air


    I did do well I guess. I bought 4 Nissan Leaf modules from the US for < €500 & a further 16kWh of VW modules for around €1400 delivered IIRC
    I saw a full i3 pack sell on eBay for about €1500 recently though so still deals to be had.


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    #64
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,774 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Update. I have gotten my hands on 16 * 93Ah 12V 3 year old ex-UPS system batteries from a data centre. 18kWh capacity, 9kWh usable. Lead acid, baby!

    Now to get an outdoor cabinet for the batteries and to get everything hooked up...


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    #65
    Alkers
    Registered Users Posts: 6,811 ✭✭✭Alkers


    unkel wrote: »
    Update. I have gotten my hands on 16 * 93Ah 12V 3 year old ex-UPS system batteries from a data centre. 18kWh capacity, 9kWh usable. Lead acid, baby!

    Now to get an outdoor cabinet for the batteries and to get everything hooked up...

    What kinda money? You'll only be paying to charge the car really in that case?


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    #66
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,774 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I got them as a favour from a friend :)


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    #67
    Mr Q
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    unkel wrote: »
    I got them as a favour from a friend :)

    Does he have any more of these he could sell?


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    #68
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    unkel wrote: »
    Update. I have gotten my hands on 16 * 93Ah 12V 3 year old ex-UPS system batteries from a data centre. 18kWh capacity, 9kWh usable. Lead acid, baby!

    Now to get an outdoor cabinet for the batteries and to get everything hooked up...

    I really really hope you know what are you playing with...
    Keep us in the loop please so we will avoid .


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    #69
    wexfordman2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    rolion wrote: »
    unkel wrote: »
    Update. I have gotten my hands on 16 * 93Ah 12V 3 year old ex-UPS system batteries from a data centre. 18kWh capacity, 9kWh usable. Lead acid, baby!

    Now to get an outdoor cabinet for the batteries and to get everything hooked up...

    I really really hope you know what are you playing with...
    Keep us in the loop please so we will avoid .

    That's an incredibly arrogant statement rolion!!


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    #70
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    wexfordman2 wrote: »
    That's an incredibly arrogant statement rolion!!

    If I'm not labelled arrogant third time by you...can I ask to develop your argument please. Thanks.

    And ... before replying (while I really appreciate colourful sharing experience from your side for the past couple of months) may I suggest in a humil and fcuking respectful way to do your home work and then tell me more about conditions on usage of lead acid batteries (and disposed from an old UPS systems) in a DIY PV solution.

    I still ask for care,care and play safe.

    Until then,be good...happy harvesting this week.


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    #71
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,438 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    rolion wrote: »
    I really really hope you know what are you playing with...
    Keep us in the loop please so we will avoid .

    Why should we avoid them?


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    #72
    decp
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭decp


    It looks like the Chinese have cloned Jehu's DIY Powerwall battery module design and selling the cheap.

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000007954235.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.1.6cb6420e5fE18l&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0%2Csearchweb201602_6_10065_10068_319_10059_10884_317_10887_10696_321_322_10084_453_10083_454_10103_10618_10304_10307_10820_10821_537_10302_536%2Csearchweb201603_53%2CppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=aff55436-74a0-4c64-8f05-467fe1c83719-0&algo_pvid=aff55436-74a0-4c64-8f05-467fe1c83719


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    #73
    wexfordman2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    rolion wrote: »
    wexfordman2 wrote: »
    That's an incredibly arrogant statement rolion!!

    If I'm not labelled arrogant third time by you xxxxx..can I ask to develop your argument please. Thanks.

    And ... before replying (while I really appreciate colourful sharing experience from your side for the past couple of months) may I suggest in a humil and fcuking respectful way to do your home work and then tell me more about conditions on usage of lead acid batteries (and disposed from an old UPS systems) in a DIY PV solution.

    I still ask for care,care and play safe.

    Until then,be good...happy harvesting this week.

    My only response to this, is that you cease using my actual name (which i have replaced above with "xxxxx", and respect the privacy of users on this forum. You got my name, from an image I mistakenly posted up, and removed immediately once it was pointed out to me that i had revealed it.

    Its more than little creepy that you hung on to that fact, and repost it multiple times, despite my objections.

    I have reported the post (the second time I have reported your posts for revealing my name) to get it removed. You may perhaps have the common sense to remove it yourself, and to not post it again.

    Do not post my name on this forum again.


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    #74
    wexfordman2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    And as far as lead acid battery use, dont assume a lack of knowledge by other users, (either me or other users), as that is exceptionally arrogant.

    I am aware of lead acid battery systems, having worked in the telecoms industry for decades, and having maintained telecoms sites that used large DC battery systems as backup, with lead acid battery systems. Primarily eltek systems were in use at the time by the company I worked for. I am not an electrical engineer, but I am aware of the limitations and safety issues around them, having experienced leaking battery systems in my day to day role.

    I wont claim to be an expert in that specific field, but lead acid battery systems, if used and deployed under the correct conditions are quite safe. Not for the faint hearted, but not something which is unsafe if installed and maintained correctly.


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    #75
    bunderoon
    Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭bunderoon


    decp wrote: »
    It looks like the Chinese have cloned Jehu's DIY Powerwall battery module design and selling the cheap.

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000007954235.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.1.6cb6420e5fE18l&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0%2Csearchweb201602_6_10065_10068_319_10059_10884_317_10887_10696_321_322_10084_453_10083_454_10103_10618_10304_10307_10820_10821_537_10302_536%2Csearchweb201603_53%2CppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=aff55436-74a0-4c64-8f05-467fe1c83719-0&algo_pvid=aff55436-74a0-4c64-8f05-467fe1c83719


    Good stuff. I'll be buying some. But wont want to pull to much amps from them - going by the heat seen in Jehu's vids.


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    #76
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    @WexfordMan... are you anytime in Dublin, can we meet for a coffee and chat, please !?

    I think we got it completely wrong, from any angles, at any distance !

    Be good and … T G I F !


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    #77
    reni10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭reni10


    bunderoon wrote: »
    Good stuff. I'll be buying some. But wont want to pull to much amps from them - going by the heat seen in Jehu's vids.

    Any idea how much a DIY 4kWh powerwall would cost to setup using batteries and parts from Ali?


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    #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    wexfordman2 wrote: »
    And as far as lead acid battery use, dont assume a lack of knowledge by other users, (either me or other users), as that is exceptionally arrogant.
    With the exception of one manufacturer, I have found lead-acid charger manufacturers wholesale don't understand how to charge them. (Or they understand and choose not to implement it)



    wexfordman2 wrote: »
    I wont claim to be an expert in that specific field,


    I do.


    wexfordman2 wrote: »
    but lead acid battery systems, if used and deployed under the correct conditions are quite safe. Not for the faint hearted, but not something which is unsafe if installed and maintained correctly.


    They are simply, more safe, hands down.

    Inspect & service if required once a blue moon and they are grand.


    Li-ion systems I also build demand ~15% of the install cost going to protection circuitry. They simply are more volatile, energy dense and powerful.


    Ever notice how much armour, thermal management and BMS hardware EV cars require?


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    air wrote: »
    Used EV modules are a far better proposition if you can source them.


    Derated Used EV module open market value exceeds the price of new cells from reputable manufacturers eg; Sinopoly, Thundersky/Winston, Cal B etc...


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    #80
    air
    Registered Users Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭air


    Sir Liamalot wrote: »
    air wrote: »
    Used EV modules are a far better proposition if you can source them.


    Derated Used EV module open market value exceeds the price of new cells from reputable manufacturers eg; Sinopoly, Thundersky/Winston, Cal B etc...
    Not in my experience, by a long shot. Your mileage may vary obviously.


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    #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just from what I find on Ebay. Comparing derated kWh lifetime to off the shelf kWh lifetime.

    Wholeheartedly agree 18650s are not the way, life's too short and one ought to ask what's my time worth before starting any such undertaking imo.


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    #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I suspect that Tesla only used them to kick start their EV business as there were no real alternatives at the time, easier to use off the shelf cells. From what I can see, most car manufactures are now going for much larger rectangular cells that are custom made for EVs.


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    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The alternatives at the time cost more per kWh / kg.


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    #84
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Just wondering *in theory* could you buy a battery and charge it at night time rates to then use that electricity during the day, thus you have night rate electricity 24/7? Could the battery alone do this or do you need an inverter too?

    Also are home batteries still running at about €4-5k installed or have they come down in price yet?


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    #85
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,774 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Just wondering *in theory* could you buy a battery and charge it at night time rates to then use that electricity during the day, thus you have night rate electricity 24/7? Could the battery alone do this or do you need an inverter too?

    The inverter does that. I'm planning to use this feature during winter months, with the goal of using close to zero expensive day rate units
    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Also are home batteries still running at about €4-5k installed or have they come down in price yet?

    A 2.4kWh Pylontech battery costs a bit over a grand. Install is simple. But you will need an inverter too. Either a stand alone battery inverter like the Sofar ME3000SP I have, or a hybrid solar PV inverter

    But you don't necessarily need an expensive lithium battery, good old lead acid works fine too. That's what I'm doing.


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The cost of chemical battery energy exceeds the savings made over the lifetime of every battery chemistry on the market when you factor the system losses or inefficiencies.
    They are a short-change yourself device for this intended purpose. I can't make it worthwhile with 12kWh that cost me the trip to collect them.
    Power on demand is the best deal. More energy sources not energy storage.


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    #87
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,774 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Depends on how much you pay for the battery system, Sir Liamalot :D

    At normal market rates, I agree with you. But if you get a €3,800 subsidy, and have it installed by an installer that doesn't rip you off, it might be a different story. Or indeed if you get your battery for free.


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    #88
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I didn't pay for the battery that's my point. Using it to shift import demand would be dissolving an asset.

    Look at system cost including installation / savings made in demand shifting x measured system efficiency factoring product and cycle efficiency degeneration, accounting for temperature, installation and external factor deratings.


    The battery efficiency is only one third.
    The inverter efficiency and the charger efficiency must be factored.

    No battery, no charger = lot's better.
    Batteries can not compete with utility power on cost in any consumer goods configuration.


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    #89
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Expect <10 years service for batteries (managed well) and power electronics (solar panels I would say will effectively last the lifetime of the residency)


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    #90
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,616 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Sir Liamalot wrote: »
    I didn't pay for the battery that's my point. Using it to shift import demand would be dissolving an asset.

    Look at system cost including installation / savings made in demand shifting x measured system efficiency factoring product and cycle efficiency degeneration, accounting for temperature, installation and external factor deratings.


    The battery efficiency is only one third.
    The inverter efficiency and the charger efficiency must be factored.

    No battery, no charger = lot's better.
    Batteries can not compete with utility power on cost in any consumer goods configuration.

    Using batteries for their designed purpose is dissolving and asset....


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    #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Their designed purpose is wireless power. Do the maths.
    Or just install one, meter it and let me know how you get on please.


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