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Church influence on independent Ireland

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    #62
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Here is some of what he had to say:

    'The New Evangel Socialism and Religion.The Known and the Unknowable' 1899.
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1901/evangel/socrel.htm

    'Labour, Nationality and ReligionBeing a discussion of the Lenten Discourses against Socialism delivered by Father Kane, S.J., in Gardiner Street Church, Dublin, 1910.'
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1910/lnr/index.htm



    Am I right that he left religious beliefs up to the individual ?

    James Connolly was left of Higgins ,Gilmore & Rabbitte and the petit bourgeoisie (public service).

    Was he a communist ?


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    #63
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    CDfm wrote: »
    Why are you presuming this ?

    Was Connolly anti-church or not and what was his stance ?

    The presumption is common sense and would make sense in attracting people towards socialism without fear of religious excommunication. Connollys stance on the Church seems like it could be hard to nail down. Perhaps MD can help?
    For a start, for himself he declared Roman Catholic on the 1911 census:
    See here


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    #64
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    While not a direct example of Church Influence, W.B.Yeat's critisism and reaction to it in the Seanad in 1925 on the then Divorce debate is a classic.

    "Once you attempt legislation on religious grounds you open the way for every kind of intolerance and for every kind of religious persecution".

    and later, in the same speech, on Irish Protestants

    "We…are no petty people. We are one of the great stocks of Europe. We are the people of Burke; we are the people of Swift, the people of Emmet, the people of Parnell. We have created most of the modern literature of this country. We have created the best of its political intelligence."

    Go read the whole thing if you can, he was way before his time on that particular occasion.


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    #65
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Marriage Law is essentially based on property law and in a post-industrial society and given the composition of the Dail I don't really think that religious belief was the only driver.

    Yeats own tangled love life hardly make him impartial and when Maud Gonne would not marry him he turned his attentions on her daughter.

    A bit of a libertine was our Will.


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    #66
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    CDfm wrote: »
    Yeats own tangled love life hardly make him impartial and when Maud Gonne would not marry him he turned his attentions on her daughter.
    Debating 101 - if you resort to making ad hominem arguments then you've essentially lost the argument.

    Old W.B. was anything but a libertine. Given the later revelations of the extent of state-sponsored child abuse carried out by the Roman Catholic Church, I think the remarks he made in the Seanad way back in 1925 were extremely prescient.


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    #67
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »

    Yeats own tangled love life hardly make him impartial and when Maud Gonne would not marry him he turned his attentions on her daughter.

    Yeats for all his enormous talent was a tad strange, and regarded so by many of his contemporaries. The occult fascination, then he married a woman called George, and with that 'automatic writing' connecting to the spirit life it all gets even stranger. And then there was the monkey glands stuff....

    When Oliver St John Gogarty was once asked if he was interested in the fairy world he quipped -"No, dinner with Yeats is fairy enough for me'. :pac:


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    #68
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Debating 101 - if you resort to making ad hominem arguments then you've essentially lost the argument.

    Old W.B. was anything but a libertine. Given the later revelations of the extent of state-sponsored child abuse carried out by the Roman Catholic Church, I think the remarks he made in the Seanad way back in 1925 were extremely prescient.

    Yeats was part of the upper class society.

    I am referring to his personal life as it was hugely different to that of your average TD.

    This was Yeats in a lovely gossipy piece that captures the man for me.

    http://www.hudsonreview.com/PhillipsSp04.html

    To say that marriage law is based on property law is the truth

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62325173&postcount=17

    Private property and the Irish farmer had been a big thing from the Land League days which had been the biggest political issue.

    So yes the religion was primarily catholic but also it was a peasant society.

    I have also read (though I can't find it now) that post independence std infection increased in women following Monto's demise and the departure of the British Army which was not supposed to happen and indicates a more sexually liberal society than we are led to believe.


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    #69
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    CDfm wrote: »
    I am referring to his personal life as it was hugely different to that of your average TD.
    Yes, in that he didn't accept corrupt payments from developers.

    My, how we have progressed as a democracy.


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    #70
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Yes, in that he didn't accept corrupt payments from developers.

    My, how we have progressed as a democracy.

    Yes we have , look how cruel he was to Maud Gonne not leaving her in to her own house after her release from jail

    But there is something perversely refreshing in learning that years later, when Gonne had been imprisoned and released for revolutionary activity, she fled illegally to Dublin, where Yeats, whose family was living in her house, turned her away at the doorstep because his wife was ill. “The patriot,” Lily remarked ironically, “was, so to speak, banging on the door the whole day long.” The family was forced to move, and Yeats sent Lady Gregory a few choice words about his idolized beloved. (Incidentally, Yeats was also a terrible speller.)
    I cannot go to the house in Stephens Green because Madame Gonne has come out of prison with Neurasthenia & her hatred has pitched on me. She writes me the most venemous letters. It all started with my refusal to allow her to stay there while George was ill. It has finally taken the form of beleiving that I have conspired with Shortt to shut her up in an English sanatorium that I might keep possession of her house. It would be much simpler to call it possession by the devil & then one could beleive it might be over—after a Mass or two.

    You would swear Yeats was the victim here.


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    #71
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    The presumption is common sense and would make sense in attracting people towards socialism without fear of religious excommunication. Connollys stance on the Church seems like it could be hard to nail down. Perhaps MD can help?
    For a start, for himself he declared Roman Catholic on the 1911 census:
    See here

    Didn't James Larkin describe Connolly as a Catholic throughout his - Connolly's - life? I don't think he practiced much - but he married in a Catholic church - to a C of I woman -and AFAIK all his children were baptised Catholic.

    In a copy of witness statements that I have from 1916 - Father Aloysius, a Franciscan Capuchin priest, says that James Connolly died a Catholic. This priest states that he heard Connolly's last confession and gave him Holy Communion. There is apparently a recording of this statement in the Military Archives -

    I may be wrong but my impression of Connolly and how he organised Catholic workers is that he never challenged or saw Catholicism as a political power that ran counter to his own social aims. Maybe he didn't see it as such and the publication of the Papal decree Rerum Novarum in 1891, upholding workers rights to oroganise in unions, would have fitted in with Connnolly's beliefs anyway.
    Workers have a natural right to form unions, and this right is beyond the authority of government.

    Pope Leo XIII - Rarum Novarum


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    #72
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    While not a direct example of Church Influence, W.B.Yeat's critisism and reaction to it in the Seanad in 1925 on the then Divorce debate is a classic.

    "Once you attempt legislation on religious grounds you open the way for every kind of intolerance and for every kind of religious persecution".

    and later, in the same speech, on Irish Protestants

    "We…are no petty people. We are one of the great stocks of Europe. We are the people of Burke; we are the people of Swift, the people of Emmet, the people of Parnell. We have created most of the modern literature of this country. We have created the best of its political intelligence."

    Go read the whole thing if you can, he was way before his time on that particular occasion.

    Something that is often forgotten about the Divorce debate of 1925 is that even amongst Protestants Yeats' view's would have been relatively unpopular. All the Protestant denominations in Ireland were also opposed to divorce and supported the proposed ban. While it's certainly possible that large numbers of ordinary Protestants opposed the ban the official position would have been anti-divorce. I've never come across any reference discussing the support the divorce ban had amongst the Protestant community, I'd be interested if anyone has any recommendations.


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    #73
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    MarchDub wrote: »
    In a copy of witness statements that I have from 1916 - Father Aloysius, a Franciscan Capuchin priest, says that James Connolly died a Catholic. This priest states that he heard Connolly's last confession and gave him Holy Communion. There is apparently a recording of this statement in the Military Archives -

    Thanks- Leading from your post I found:
    Father Aloysius was chaplain to the Irish Volunteers. In a voice recording, held at the Bureau of Military History, Rathmines, Dublin, he described the last days of James Connolly, and meetings with British soldiers at Dublin Castle before the executions.

    “At 1am (Friday) the car came for me. I heard Connolly’s confession and gave him Holy Communion. Then I left while he was given a light meal. I had a long talk with (Captain) Stanley in the Castle yard,” he said.

    “He told me that he had been very much impressed by Connolly and that Surgeon Tobin had been very stuck too by his character. He told me an amusing story he had from Surgeon Tobin. I don’t know if I ought to narrate it.

    “Now the time appointed (2am) — Connolly was to be taken to Kilmainham. I had a few words. I said that the men who would execute him were soldiers — probably they knew nothing about him — and like soldiers — would simply obey orders and fire, and I wanted him to feel no anger against them, but to say, as Our Lord said on Calvary, ‘Father, forgive them’ and to say a prayer for them.”

    ‘I do, Father,’ he answered. ‘I respect every man who does his duty.’

    “James Connolly was then brought down to the car and laid on a stretcher in it. I sat in the ambulance car with him and said a last word to him before they took him from the car in Kilmainham yard, He was put sitting on a chair and the order was given.

    (Source: Witness statements, The Capuchin Annual, 1966, Curious Journey, 1998)
    http://www.easter1916.ie/index.php/rising/witnesses/
    There are also other witness statements or portions of them on this site.


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    #74
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Some words from Connolly himself on socialism intertwining with religion in Labour, Nationality and Religion chapter 6, in 1910:
    The day has passed for patching up the capitalist system; it must go. And in the work of abolishing it the Catholic and the Protestant, the Catholic and the Jew, the Catholic and the Freethinker, the Catholic and the Buddhist, the Catholic and the Mahometan will co-operate together, knowing no rivalry but the rivalry of endeavour toward an end beneficial to all. For, as we have said elsewhere, Socialism is neither Protestant nor Catholic, Christian nor Freethinker, Buddhist, Mahometan, nor Jew; it is only HUMAN. http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1910/lnr/06.htm
    I know I shouldnt lead people to speculate (as I do just that) but I find it difficult to imagine a role for Connolly in the War of independence and after.

    With regard to a socialist embracing religion, this was unusual in the history of the time. I am not aware of any socialist or communist regime of note that entertained religion. The theory of the conflict between these is described here although the reality was always consistent:
    On one side we see that numerous laborers, when joining the ranks of the socialists, also throw their theological faith overboard and often combat religion fiercely; moreover, the teachings, which form the basis and strength of present-day socialism, and which together form a entirely new world conception, stand irreconcilably opposed to religious faith. On the other hand, we see faithful adherents of Christianity, even priests, demanding socialism precisely on account of their Christian teachings and gathering under the banner of the labor movement. From the International Socialist Review, April 1907, Anton Pannekoek. http://www.marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1907/socialism-religion.htm


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    #75
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Some words from Connolly himself on socialism intertwining with religion in Labour, Nationality and Religion chapter 6, in 1910:
    I know I shouldnt lead people to speculate (as I do just that) but I find it difficult to imagine a role for Connolly in the War of independence and after.

    Why not , look at Fianna Fail's house building policies in the 30's and 40's and if you check the John Jinks thread you will see a publican and trade unionist

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056064820

    Maybe his core belief was the eradication of poverty.

    Collins was a Connolly fan , so he would not have been forgotten and I imagine womens rights would have been handled differently. Take Hannah Sheehy-Skeffingtons campaogn for rights for Women Teachers.

    With regard to a socialist embracing religion, this was unusual in the history of the time. I am not aware of any socialist or communist regime of note that entertained religion. The theory of the conflict between these is described here although the reality was always consistent:

    Maybe a Connolly belief was the freedom to believe.

    Are you pigeonholing him too much.


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    #76
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    CDfm wrote: »
    Maybe a Connolly belief was the freedom to believe.

    Are you pigeonholing him too much.

    Was it?

    I see him tailoring socialism for the Irish situation. He rightly saw religion as irrelevant to the wider aim of unity of the ordinary man (his main aim) but knew it had to be addressed.


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    #77
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Was it?

    I see him tailoring socialism for the Irish situation.

    I dunno

    He rightly saw religion as irrelevant to the wider aim of unity of the ordinary man (his main aim) but knew it had to be addressed.

    But Marx and others was hung up on belief systems as was Hitler even and there were lots of cults of personalities by leaders at that time.

    Did he have that much of an ego to try to fit people into a theory.

    Maybe Connolly wasn't that doctrinaire ?

    I couldn't see him as a Stalin type figure , was he a democrat ?


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    #78
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I think it is simplistic to adopt a polarised approach as lots of people were living their lives. James Connolly is cited a lot by some and along with growing up in Scotland he lived in the US for 7 years and was active in British trade unionism.

    He came to Dublin in 1896 where he founded the Irish Socialist Republican
    Party and published the newspaper The Workers’ Republic. He opposed Home Rule as middle class, capitalist, and unlikely to promote social reform.

    In 1903 Connolly spent three months in the United States on a lecture tour; the following year he brought his family to live with him in New York, where he was active in Irish nationalist and socialist circles. He was a cofounder of the syndicalist Industrial Workers of the World (‘the Wobblies’) becoming their New York organiser.

    He also became a national organizer for the Socialist Party of America. In 1907 Connolly founded the Irish Socialist Federation and edited its journal The Harp which he set up in 1908. While in America he wrote some of his best-known works, including Labour in Irish History, which greatly influenced the thinking of Patrick Pearse, and his famous polemic, Labour, Nationality and Religion, both of which were published in Dublin in 1910.

    Returning to Ireland in 1910, Connolly worked as Belfast organiser for the Irish Transport and General Workers’ Union which had been founded by Jim Larkin. Moving to Dublin, he was second-in-command to Larkin during the 1913 lock-out. When Larkin went to the United States in 1914, Connolly succeeded him as head of the ITGWU and editor of the Irish Worker. He also became commandant of the Irish Citizen Army, which had beenformed to protect workers during the 1913 lock-out.

    Connolly was appalled at the outbreak of the First World War in August 1914 and launched an anti-recruitment drive.

    The link shows some of his posters and writings

    http://www.nli.ie/1916/pdf/4.6.pdf

    Here is a bit about where he lived in Dublin


    James Connolly’s Dublin Addresses

    December 23, 2009 by jaycarax

    James Connolly lived in a number of houses in Dublin during his time in the city. How many have plaques to mark this? None.
    In 1896 when Connolly first came to Dublin the family lived in a one roomed tenement at 76 Charlemont Street. The following summer they moved to 71 Queen Street (beside Smithfield) and then to an end of terrace house at 54 Pimlico in the Liberties.
    connolly1895.jpg?w=500James Connolly with his wife, Lillie and daughters Mona, and Nora, c. 1895.

    Before their move to the United States, they lived in a cottage in Weaver Square off Cork Street.
    On his return to Dublin in 1910, James Connolly lived at 70 South Lotts Road, Ringsend. You can see the 1911 census return for the household here On his visits to Dublin in 1913 he stayed occasionally at Moran’s Hotel (now O’Sheas) at the corner of Gardiner Street and Talbot Street.
    liverpool1913.jpg?w=500At back: Jim Larkin & James Connolly. In front: Mrs Bamber (Liverpool Trades Council) & Bill Haywood (IWW), 1913.

    More frequently he lodged in 49b Leinster Road, Rathmines, (a.k.a Surrey House) the home of Constance Markievicz where several of her colleagues in the Fianna organisation also lived. (James Larkin hid in this house after he was arrested on 28 August 1913 and before he addressed the crowd from The Imperial Hotel on Sackville Street on 31 august. The house also served as Connolly’s and Markievicz’s office for The Spark and The Workers’ Republic which was also printed here.)
    Some time before the Rising Connolly moved into Liberty Hall. During this time, his family stayed with Constance Markievicz’s in her cottage at the foot of Three Rock Mountain in South Dublin.
    The houses in Charlemont Street, Queen Street, Pimlico, Weaver Square and South Lotts Road where Connolly and his family lived should have small plaques to mark their importance. If Dublin City Council can’t provide them, maybe all the left wing groups active in the city could raise the money?
    [References:
    Joseph E.A. Connell Jnr, Dublin in Rebellion: A Directory 1913 – 1923, Lilliput Press, 2009 and Donal Nevin, James Connolly: A Full Life, Gill & Macmillan, 2006.)


    http://comeheretome.wordpress.com/2009/12/23/james-connollys-dublin-addresses/


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    #79
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    The British had tried to rule through Protestantism and this failed. They then tried to rule through Catholicism and this helped establish the Church into a position of power before Ireland became independence. The change in attitude from penal laws to state co-operation is interesting from both the Catholic church and the states points of view.
    It is interesting to note that Israel supported Hamas in its early days as a way of controlling the Palestinians.
    The use of religion, or the encouraging of religion in the face of political opposition to the State is not a new phenomenon.


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    #80
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    deirdremf wrote: »
    It is interesting to note that Israel supported Hamas in its early days as a way of controlling the Palestinians.
    The use of religion, or the encouraging of religion in the face of political opposition to the State is not a new phenomenon.

    Similar events occured in the Soviet Union, Francoquist Spain and Mussolini's Italy (the relationship between politics and religion in the case of the German corporal is more complicated). Extremely common occurance through history.


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    #81
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    HavingCrack wrote: »
    Similar events occured in the Soviet Union, Francoquist Spain and Mussolini's Italy (the relationship between politics and religion in the case of the German corporal is more complicated). Extremely common occurance through history.

    Indeed it is. However, the Soviet Union, Falangist Spain and Fascist Italy were all Totalitarian states under the control of Dictators - Ireland was meant to be a republic ;).

    How many of those still allow education to be controlled by religions - with one particular denomination exercising control over - what 90%? - of primary education?

    As for Israel - it's a country I would be wary of comparing with Ireland given the blurring of the boundaries between religion/ethnicity when it comes to Judaism. I do think Westminster reached an accommodation with Rome around the time of the Act of Union - but I fail to see why it was necessary for either the Irish Free State or Republic to allow Rome to dictate policy or control education - and why the latter arrangement continues into the 21st century.
    Surely it is direct contravention of the Constitution which declares the State will not endow any religion...


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    #82
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Indeed it is. However, the Soviet Union, Falangist Spain and Fascist Italy were all Totalitarian states under the control of Dictators - Ireland was meant to be a republic ;).

    I have often asked about what democratic aspirations our crowd had ?
    How many of those still allow education to be controlled by religions - with one particular denomination exercising control over - what 90%? - of primary education?

    Bannasidhe are you implying that Ireland is somehow democratic.

    Our civil service was inherited from the British and did we just continue with more of the same. The Civil Service has patronage.

    Same dog, different hair ???

    And, if you take our 1937 Constitution , it incorporated Catholic Social policy and non democratic elements too. A little bit fascist in some ways.

    You cannot say that anything that has led to the Social Partnership and avoiding parliament is democratic.

    The voting system is controlled by the party leaders in power via the whip system i.e. the Taoiseach decides and the whips enforce.

    So you cannot single out just the church, there are lots of unelected bodies who do not report to the Oireachtas who are in "power"


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    #83
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    CDfm wrote: »
    I have often asked about what democratic aspirations our crowd had ?



    Bannasidhe are you implying that Ireland is somehow democratic.

    Our civil service was inherited from the British and did we just continue with more of the same. The Civil Service has patronage.

    Same dog, different hair ???

    And, if you take our 1937 Constitution , it incorporated Catholic Social policy and non democratic elements too. A little bit fascist in some ways.

    You cannot say that anything that has led to the Social Partnership and avoiding parliament is democratic.

    The voting system is controlled by the party leaders in power via the whip system i.e. the Taoiseach decides and the whips enforce.

    So you cannot single out just the church, there are lots of unelected bodies who do not report to the Oireachtas who are in "power"

    Hence my use of the words 'meant to be' ;)


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    #84
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Hence my use of the words 'meant to be' ;)

    So we are nominally democratic then but not really and that was the intention ?


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    #85
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    CDfm wrote: »
    So we are nominally democratic then but not really and that was the intention ?

    Dairmaid Ferriter certainly seems to think so. Nothing I have read makes me doubt his interpretations though I must admit Modern Irish is not my area of expertise.


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    #86
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Dairmaid Ferriter certainly seems to think so. Nothing I have read makes me doubt his interpretations though I must admit Modern Irish is not my area of expertise.

    I have thought that for a while .


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    #87
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Indeed it is. However, the Soviet Union, Falangist Spain and Fascist Italy were all Totalitarian states under the control of Dictators - Ireland was meant to be a republic ;).
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    How many of those still allow education to be controlled by religions - with one particular denomination exercising control over - what 90%? - of primary education?
    Eh Russia is very much secular as a result of its Soviet past.

    Italian education was actually quite close to Ireland for many years, I don't think it was until the 1990's that Catholicism's stranglehold on education was finally removed, maybe someone else has more information on this?

    Spain is an odd one. Even after the transition to democracy the Socialist Party continued to fund Catholic run schools for a while. I can't seem to find any information on when Spanish schools became secular or if some remain Catholic. Hopefully we have some posters familiar with the Spanish education system.

    Ever since I took a module by Ferriter I do wonder whether independent Ireland was deliberately constructed with totalitarian/fascist undertones.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    As for Israel - it's a country I would be wary of comparing with Ireland given the blurring of the boundaries between religion/ethnicity when it comes to Judaism. I do think Westminster reached an accommodation with Rome around the time of the Act of Union - but I fail to see why it was necessary for either the Irish Free State or Republic to allow Rome to dictate policy or control education - and why the latter arrangement continues into the 21st century.
    Surely it is direct contravention of the Constitution which declares the State will not endow any religion...

    I don't think Israel is a good country to be compared with anywhere, as you say the whole blending of religion/ethnicity etc. has created a disasters in the middle east.


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    #88
    marty1985
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭marty1985


    Great thread guys.

    I was just wondering if anyone could expand on the church's role in education. Was there ever really an alternative, as the government didn't have the infrastructure or money to have full control over education? How did it first come about that the church gained such control over education?


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    #89
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    marty1985 wrote: »
    Great thread guys.

    I was just wondering if anyone could expand on the church's role in education. Was there ever really an alternative, as the government didn't have the infrastructure or money to have full control over education? How did it first come about that the church gained such control over education?

    It dates back to the 19th century when national schools were established under the British administration along faith based lines. Originally it was proposed to have non-denominational national schools but the Catholic Church and Presbyterian Church (I think) kicked up a fuss about it and demanded religiously denominated schools. As far as I know the Church of Ireland or Methodist Church weren't opposed to non-denominational schools.

    When the Free State was established the schools were already long established and education was seen as something that could be left alone. Most members of government were staunch Catholics anyway and would have supported denominational education.


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    #90
    marty1985
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭marty1985


    Thanks. Although, shouldn't a history of Catholic involvement in schools have some reference to hedge schools and penal laws of the 18th century that forbade Catholic schools. I'm just trying to get the bigger picture.

    Also, to get a better picture of education in Ireland, how prominent were Irish Charter Schools, which admitted only Catholics, but on the condition that they be educated as Protestants. According to wikipedia, these schools were intended, in the words of their programme, "to rescue the souls of thousands of poor children from the dangers of Popish superstition and idolatry, and their bodies from the miseries of idleness and beggary." Inspections towards the end of the century showed massive abuse of the system, many children receiving little instruction but were being used mainly as farm labourers or weavers and subject to squalid conditions, punishment and disease.

    That would have been at the height of the penal laws.


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    #91
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I suppose we need to timeline education in the 19th century pre and post Catholic Emancipation & or Post Famine.

    Post famine was education for emigration.

    Here is an extract from a UCC link.
    3. Education

    Education was increasingly seen as a means of preparing those children who did not inherit the land for other forms of employment or for migration. Ireland was far ahead of Britain in education because of the national system of education, introduced in 1831. Though there was some regional variation, overall levels of illiteracy (a standard measure of the development of any society) fell rapidly, from 53% in 1841 to 18% in 1891. Most of those unable to read and write belonged to the older age groups. Irish children enjoyed the benefits of a standardised syllabus and the attentions of inspectors whose task was to ensure that standards were kept throughout the country.


    http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Ireland_society__economy_1870-1914

    I have seen some material here on the deskeenan site which is good on anecdotes
    General Aspects and History


    In the course of the 18th century many working people learned to read and the desire for some literacy became quite widespread even if it was only the ability of a farmer’s wife to write her own name. This desire was widespread in the towns on the east coast of Ireland, but was virtually non-existent among the Gaelic-speaking cottiers on the west coast (Adams, Printed Word, 20). When the restrictions on Catholic teachers were removed by the various emancipation Acts the sector was virtually unregulated. Anyone, even with the most limited education themselves, could start a school in even the most unsuitable buildings. (In theory the permission of the Protestant rector was still required.) These could be barns, or rented rooms, or tiny church halls. There was nothing peculiar to Ireland in this. By the beginning of the nineteenth century these were very numerous in the northern and eastern parts of the country. As Carleton pointed out the chief objection to them by the clergy was the fondness of the schoolmasters for drinking whiskey. Dr James Warren Doyle in 1821 objected to them on various grounds, one of which was that boys and girls were taught together in tiny rooms (Fitzpatrick, Doyle, I, 129).


    http://www.deskeenan.com/6pochapter8.htm

    So I am thinking that post famine there was an increase in the demand for education .

    Think Michael Collins getting the civil service exam and joining the post office.

    Pre-emancipation post 1800 onwards we had more relaxed rules for church building.

    Say Fr Murphy went ballistic in 1798 when his church got torched and circa a decade later you have Fr Crane doing a deal with a Mr Tottenham to build a priory in New Ross and a seminary for priests operating in Grantstown. He had trained in Paris and had gotten Tottenham out of jail.
    Clonmines,like its sister town of Bannow, ceased to have a commercial importance and disappeared in the 16th century.
    In 1734 Fr. Murphy o.s.a. rented 22 acres from a protestant lady, Catherine King, of Barrystown House. He built a thatched Priory and Mass-house at Grantstown, on the site of the present Augustinian Priory and Church. The Priory eventually became the Novitiate of the Irish Augustinians. In 1811 a much more substantial, slated house was built and in 1832 the present Grantstown was completed and blessed. The Friars continue to serve in Grantstown, the present incumbent being Father Aidan O’Leary o.s.a..


    http://www.augustinians.ie/component/content/article/12

    So what you have to say that these people were already operating to 3rd level standard before Cardinal Newman came to town to educate Captain O'Shea in Dublin in the 1860's.

    I am also very conscious that the role of women is not given the prominence it should.

    The nuns never went away post reformation and systematically set up schools , hospitals and training colleges. Mother Bridgeman tussling with Florence Nightengale in the Crimea is a favorite image of mine. So you have the protestant versus catholic thing.

    http://homepage.eircom.net/~archaeology/two/famine.htm

    The dynamics of religious orders were no labour costs and if we have a building we can throw up a school.
    Throughout the nineteenth century, the number of women involved in thecongregation varied. Women were able to become teachers without being a nun, as a result of the convent schools, so the need for nuns was reduced. In 1861, Catholic and Protestant female teachers combined totaled 8900. That same year, there were only 2909nuns. However, among Catholic women, nuns were most prominent by the start of the20th century. There were 8887 nuns and 8500 female Catholic teachers in 1911, showing the continuous growth in education that was to come.

    http://dspace.mic.ul.ie/bitstream/10...%20Records.PDF

    Nuns in Irish Education in the 19th Century
    Chrissy Records
    History of Irish Education

    So really, the growth was doing education on the cheap.

    There was a fair bit of altruism involved too. Edmund Rice who founded the CBS was a widowed merchant looking for a goal. Brother Walfrid who founded Celtic FC was a teacher who had a vocation.

    Education was emancipation for the Irish peasant.

    That was fairly much the origan of the groups that controlled education in Ireland in the 20th Century.


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