Luas Finglas

SeanW · 28-07-2020 5:46pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The junction (or more accurately half a junction) was laid out like that for a reason. If TII (NRA at the time) wanted a full junction, they could have built one, or at least made provision for it in the numbering of the junctions. Whats there serves the DALP and future sewage solids facility, lots of HGV and other vehicle movements, understandable if they don't want to add hundreds of commuter cars movements as well, particularly with it between existing junctions so lots of merging in a short space.

But really, light rail systems should be left do what they are good at, not trying to have them serve small towns many kms away.

The reason you refer to might have made sense at the time, but the strategic objective of keeping drivers out of the city and off the M50 may mean that a new junction design is warranted and proper.

I actually partly agree with you about the role of light rail - certainly if you look at the Green line I don't think it was the best idea to use trams instead of a Metro, but it looks to me that the decision to provide a park and ride for the N2 with the Finglas Luas has already been made. If that decision is set in stone, would you prefer that the park and ride was inside the M50 ring in a general urban area, or on a properly designed site before the M50 away from shopping centres, apartment buildings etc?

cgcsb · 28-07-2020 5:49pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

The first time I was ever on the 40 to Finglas was with a mate and we were on the upper deck observing everything like you do when in a new area. We both agreed that we felt like we had just been transported back into deep recessionary Ireland in the 1970's. Highlights were the Dunnes Stores which looked like the livery/logo was still from the 70s, the row of about 10 shops beside it all shuttered and closed up, graffiti and ashes from bonfires everywhere and the many horses roaming all over huge expanses of football pitches. Compared to Finglas east it really is like being in a different world.

Ive often wondered if suburbs like Finglas that have national primary routes dissecting them in half suffer from one side of the carriageway becoming settled and the other side degenerating into anti social behaviour over time. The carriageway forms a barrier and the fortunes of the areas either side of it diverge. I think you can see the same effects starting to become evident in Blanch and Lucan being split by the N3/N4. Blanch now having problems to the east of the N3 and Lucan to the west of the N4 whereas their opposite sides have become relatively prosperous. There is probably studies out there asking if splitting a suburb down the middle with a busy dual carriageway is in some way responsible for one side of it going down hill and the other side improving its lot.

Street layout is a huge issue in the area, someone living in Fairlawn estate, 10m from the main Finglas Road would have to walk 1.5km to reach the main Finglas Road. Pedestrian permiability was purposefully reduced from the 1960s to the 2000s

Muahahaha · 28-07-2020 5:49pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

Nice informed answer, thank you

I think an apartment would be ok to live in but houses are so easy to break into I wouldn't feel safe.

Modern apartments are basically fortresses above ground level with 2 to 3 doors to get past and could have security/concierge in reception.

Apartments very much safer than houses in terms of the risk level of break ins once you are not on the ground level. But apartments in rougher areas can suffer badly from anti social behaviour, all depending on who your neighbours are. I know of one apartment block in Finglas where a resident gave his mate the car thief a fob to the underground car park so he could help himself at will. There was no CCTV and this went on for almost a year.

I know of an OAP couple who downsized from a house in Arbour Hill to an apartment in Ushers Quay, which was the biggest mistake of their life in their senior years. At one point their next door neighbour climbed from his balony onto theirs and tried to break in, monwy for heroin being the motivation. They suffered years of house parties and mayhem and the management company were next to useless.
and help himself

Muahahaha · 28-07-2020 5:54pm

john4321 wrote: »

I contacted a local politician to see about getting a connection between D11 and the airport. This is what the NTA sent back at the end of last year.

"Currently, there are no plans to extend the Route 140 service to the airport and while we plan to introduce 24-hour services on a number of Routes later this year, starting with Route 41, Route 140 has not been selected for this service at this stage. We will consider these requests in future plans and as Dublin Bus works closely with the National Transport Authority (NTA) in relation to our service provision we will discuss your requests with the NTA also.”

yeah thats pretty much the response I got from them circa 2015. In fact Id say that is an almost identcal copy and paste reponse from the NTA as I recall them mentioning 24 hour services when I was only asking about the 140 going into the airport. So as you can see nothing has changed in five years, its a shame really that such a simple addition to the network could bring big benefits. I think there is also issues at play within Dublin airport themselves and the DAA having their say about what routes go in and out of the airport. Its a classic example of state agencies not working in tandem for the benefit of the public.

Zebra3 · 28-07-2020 6:03pm

What's the current DB journey times from the proposed new stops in to the city?

Just curious on the time win for locals that could keep objections down.

ncounties · 28-07-2020 6:13pm

L1011 wrote: »

D4 if Lucan is extended out that direction as has been hinted

Where?! *Genuine Interest*

Daith · 28-07-2020 6:17pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

What's the current DB journey times from the proposed new stops in to the city?

Just curious on the time win for locals that could keep objections down.

Getting the 40 from Finglas West to City Centre/Trinity could take anywhere from 20 mins with no traffic to an hour or more. Generally probably about 40 mins to centre and longer to get back.

140 is quicker generally.

If I get the 40e and Luas (and timing works out) it would be 20 mins regularly.

Luas should offer better time savings.

LXFlyer · 28-07-2020 6:18pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

What's the current DB journey times from the proposed new stops in to the city?

Just curious on the time win for locals that could keep objections down.

Current scheduled peak journey time on the 140 from Charlestown to O’Connell Street (the most direct service) is 25 minutes but bear in mind that is based on the much lower traffic conditions that are prevailing right now (Dublin Bus intermediate stop schedules adjust to reflect traffic conditions).

Pre-Covid peak journey time was probably 15-20 minutes longer.

Peregrine · 28-07-2020 6:25pm

RTÉ still hasn't corrected their article.

"The brochure, which was delivered to households in the area, says that the link could be in operation by 2028"

The government needed to be crucified for delaying funding and taking 12 years to go from design to delivery and RTÉ botched it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2020/0728/1155945-luas-extension-plans/

orangerhyme · 28-07-2020 6:37pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Its long been a bug bear of mine that the 140 doesnt continue on from Ikea and into the airport. That simple 4km extension of the route would open up an airport route all the way from Rathmines through Phibsboro, Glavnevin and Finglas. It would give around 150,000 people a direct route to the airport for the first time . I once emailed Dublin Bus about it, got transferred to the NTA who came up with a non response that 'we're keeping it under review'. Its a shame really that it hasnt been done, such a simple extension would give everyone living along the 140 route a big win.

Yeah with a new Luas house prices rise by about 15% very quickly therefore some houses move into a different bracket of property tax, more property tax gets paid and so on. If houses get sold at higher prices more stamp duty gets paid than before too. It still takes a long time to re-coup the 300m though, its very much a front loaded long term investment for the State.

Yes I mean in timescale of 30 to 50 years, quite a bit of the investment is paid back in increased tax revenue.
Also lots of ancillary benefits like social benefits and increased investment in the area.

I could see lots of young Eastern types or Brazilians moving to South Finglas area and not being too bothered by the social problems and attracted by having house with garden and parking so close to city.

I don't know the area so not sure how bad social problems are.
Would I expect house and car to be broken into quite regularly, hassle from kids outside shops etc

Alvin Holler · 28-07-2020 6:58pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

Yes I mean in timescale of 30 to 50 years, quite a bit of the investment is paid back in increased tax revenue.
Also lots of ancillary benefits like social benefits and increased investment in the area.

Property tax is payable on the value of the house in 2013. Until a government changes that it, a luas won't make a difference to tax revenue

Muahahaha · 29-07-2020 3:31pm

Alvin Holler wrote: »

Property tax is payable on the value of the house in 2013. Until a government changes that it, a luas won't make a difference to tax revenue

No but I think it is on the government agenda but it hasnt happened yet as it is a political hot potato. But a re-valuation has to happen at some stage, we cant go on paying property taxes at 2013 house price valuations forever. Revenue are leaving millions on the table there and the Govt. will be forced to call it in if the unemployment situation carries on as it is.

Anyway just looking at the Luas route itself I think credit has to be given to TII/NTA for how it uses parks to remain separated from the N2, I think it is quite a clever route. I had always presumed they would get it over the Tolka Valley and then onto the N2 as quickly as possible meaning shared running with Dublin Bus which obviously wouldnt have worked very well. The route itself hits a nice sweet spot in that it goes through the residential areas of St.Helenas and Finglas village, Mellows Park and avoids any shared running on the N2.

It will be interesting to see how they tackle St Margarets Road as they will have to maintain access to Lidl, Aldi and the Jamestown Industrial Park. Probably will have to go with 2 Luas lines and a single one way car lane with Dublin Bus being allowed bi-directional shared running on the Luas tracks

L1011 · 29-07-2020 4:01pm

ncounties wrote: »

Where?! *Genuine Interest*

Sandymount area has been kite-flown by some politicians. So about as solid as a suggestions made on here! This is not the same as the more likely to happen extension of the Red Line over the Liffey to Ringsend.

The original Line F plan ends at Trinity.

Last Stop · 29-07-2020 4:06pm

MJohnston wrote: »

You're overthinking this a touch:

Green is existing on/off slips from the M2. Blue is where you could add additional slip roads if you wanted. But this wouldn't necessary, as Elm Road is only 2km from M2 Junction 2, and the existing volumes on this old N2 are extremely low.

So - no additional M2 junction needed really.

The red area is all non-functional space, potentially usable as park and ride, without having to extend the Luas track very far at all.

Elm Rd is a private road for an industrial estate so a non-runner.
Without it, you need a new road bridge over the N2.
In that context (and justifiably), the proposed location has been chosen.

Its worth bearing in mind that the P+R will only have 600 spaces. That's not that significant especially when you consider that for years to get to the Red Cow you had to go through Newlands Cross junction and then make that hairpin turn to cross over the N7. The route to Charlestown is far more direct especially with junction improvement works as eluded to in the report.

Long term there may be merit in extending the line over the M50 (with a potential new depot to compensate for future Metrolink green line upgrade)
and to tie in with Metrolink at Dardistown but given the cost that would add to the project, this is the best solution in the interim.

This will be the fifth luas extension since it opened in 2004 so we are averaging an extension every 5 years which demonstrates the success of the system.

L1011 · 29-07-2020 4:35pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

No but I think it is on the government agenda but it hasnt happened yet as it is a political hot potato. But a re-valuation has to happen at some stage, we cant go on paying property taxes at 2013 house price valuations forever. Revenue are leaving millions on the table there and the Govt. will be forced to call it in if the unemployment situation carries on as it is.

The way it'll likely be spun is "all those people who got Help To Buy a new house are escaping tax to repay the state, we need to fix that!" - as HTB only applied to new houses and anything built post 2013 is exempt due to having no valuation.

Alvin Holler · 29-07-2020 4:48pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

No but I think it is on the government agenda but it hasnt happened yet as it is a political hot potato. But a re-valuation has to happen at some stage, we cant go on paying property taxes at 2013 house price valuations forever. Revenue are leaving millions on the table there and the Govt. will be forced to call it in if the unemployment situation carries on as it

You never know. Council tax in London is based on the value of the property in 1991.

Sam Russell · 29-07-2020 5:11pm

They could just base the LPT on the purchase price for any house built after 2013.

It might be unjust and so precipitate a revaluation.

Yellow_Fern · 29-07-2020 6:22pm

Does this line really make sense? It just seems to add to the congestion and that we need proper metros not huge tram line networks.

Sam Russell · 29-07-2020 6:53pm

They should extend the red line from Heuston along the North Circular to Broadstone, and possibly onto Ballybough. It would increase connectivity on the Northside.

orangerhyme · 29-07-2020 7:46pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Does this line really make sense? It just seems to add to the congestion and that we need proper metros not huge tram line networks.

It's relatively cheap and easy and brilliant for the area.

Lots of new apartments planned for Jamestown Rd area also.

Yellow_Fern · 29-07-2020 7:48pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

It's relatively cheap and easy and brilliant for the area.

Lots of new apartments planned for Jamestown Rd area also.

My point is that the Luas is very crowded as it is and will slow down road traffic and that the money might be better spent in bigger investments metro.

markpb · 29-07-2020 8:07pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

My point is that the Luas is very crowded as it is and will slow down road traffic and that the money might be better spent in bigger investments metro.

A metro would be preferable but Luas can be constructed in a shorter timeframe, for an awful lot less money and still carry a decent number of people. The impact to traffic should be minimal because of the path they’re proposing and even if it wasn’t, a tram carrying 300 passengers is far more efficient than the cars its impacting so the net result is still more people moving.

Plus Luas has the advantage that it’s politically popular whereas metro construction in Ireland still falls foul of people who think Dublin isn’t big enough or dense enough to need a metro.

L1011 · 29-07-2020 8:22pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

My point is that the Luas is very crowded as it is and will slow down road traffic and that the money might be better spent in bigger investments metro.

The Luas from the city centre to/from Broombridge is not particularly crowded.

CatInABox · 29-07-2020 9:36pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how they tackle St Margarets Road as they will have to maintain access to Lidl, Aldi and the Jamestown Industrial Park. Probably will have to go with 2 Luas lines and a single one way car lane with Dublin Bus being allowed bi-directional shared running on the Luas tracks

Detailed maps are up on the website, St Margarets Road will be two way with cycle lanes, with a fairly chunky amount of CPOs on either side of the road to make it wide enough for the two Luas tracks.

I've got to admire there ambition there.

They've also got an amusingly named "kiss and ride" facility at Charlestown.

Gumbo · 29-07-2020 10:45pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

It should confer slight benefits to the area but is obviously not a panacea.

I wonder what % of housing is council owned in south Finglas along the planned Luas line.

It seems to be the area bounded by Finglas road, Cappagh Road, Ratoath road and Tolka valley road which is most deprived with high anti social behavior. Would this quite large area be mostly council houses?

Yes I know the majority are decent people but I don't envy anyone trying to raise kids there.

Many many privately built and owned house sin that area you’ve listed which takes in parts of Finglas south, west and plain old Finglas.

Gumbo · 29-07-2020 10:48pm

Daith wrote: »

To swing it slightly back on topic, I can only see residents having an issue with the Luas going through the green at Farnham. This is used by local teams so seems the most likely issue. That and any property that might be impacted.

Other than that, it's hard to see too many objections. Any of the bus routes will cross the link so it's an easy connection for areas that aren't walk able to a Luas stop.

Biggest concerns I see are the route through the green space at Barnamore, splitting Farnham playing fields, the complete closure of the entrances to Wellmount parade and Patrick’s well court and flipping the entrances to the opposite sides which means the guys in the end of the cul de sac will now become the first house in and experience a complete u-turn on traffic volumes passing their front door.

Next issues is the cutting through the estate beside the Garda station, some land required.

paulbok · 30-07-2020 10:30am

CatInABox wrote: »

Detailed maps are up on the website, St Margarets Road will be two way with cycle lanes, with a fairly chunky amount of CPOs on either side of the road to make it wide enough for the two Luas tracks.

I've got to admire there ambition there.

They've also got an amusingly named "kiss and ride" facility at Charlestown.

Plenty of "frontage" along St Margaret's Rd that can be CPO'd, businesses such as Aldi and Lidl would loose a little car parking, but they are still a good size and they gain the advantage of being on a luas route.
There is only one tight point just after Aldi with residential houses one side and a takeaway the other before opening up again all the way to the terminus.
How they traverse from Cappagh Rd to Mellowes Rd and park might be more controversial when the time comes as it looks to follow Mellowes crescent, an estate Rd so will have to share road space as no real scope to widen.

While continuing it on and across the M50 alongside the R122 to a proper P&R facility (which could tie in the the Metro West if it ever happens in the future) makes so much sense, St Margaret's Rd isn't wide enough from half way along the shopping centre to the Bord Gais depot/offices, as the entrance for the shopping centre carpark takes up a lot of road width there. That stretch is already a traffic hotspot during peak times without sharing the road with a luas.
Unless they somehow could aquire some of the Bord Gais land next the shopping centre and redesign that entrance altogether.

roadmaster · 30-07-2020 11:04am

L1011 wrote: »

The Luas from the city centre to/from Broombridge is not particularly crowded.

I wouldn't say that i have often struggled to get on to it after i got of the train there

paulbok · 30-07-2020 12:21pm

L1011 wrote: »

The Luas from the city centre to/from Broombridge is not particularly crowded.

Is the capacity issue not with the trams crossing O'Connell Bridge? That there are already so frequent, it's causing havoc with rush hour car traffic travelling on the quays.
Add in extra carriages from Finglas and that only gets worse

MJohnston · 30-07-2020 12:34pm

paulbok wrote: »

Is the capacity issue not with the trams crossing O'Connell Bridge? That there are already so frequent, it's causing havoc with rush hour car traffic travelling on the quays.
Add in extra carriages from Finglas and that only gets worse

I don't think you're envisioning this correctly. O'Connell Bridge doesn't have to see any additional tram frequency for the Finglas extension to exist. There will be more trams on the line, but the line will also be longer, so the frequency at any one place will likely remain the same.

That said, even if frequency needed to increase, it shouldn't be prevented just because motorists are inconvenienced.

Luas Finglas

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