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Luas Finglas

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    It doesn't "cut off" anything further north, it just means waiting for another Luas or using another mode of transport. It is less than ideal and disappointing that that will be the case but there are no other options. Hopefully the experience of this suboptimal situation will focus minds that Luas is not enough for the Green Line and that it will have to be upgraded to Metro. Some people will never come round but a dose of this reality will lead to the majority accepting that the short term pain of tying in is worth the long term gain of having Metrolink run from Swords to Sandyford.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,932 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It would only be certain trams that will terminate there, and only during the peak hours.

    The same existing frequency will go through the city centre and the frequency on the northern section will undoubtedly increase with far fewer trams turning back at Parnell.

    You physically cannot fit any more trams through the city centre. Unless they sprout wings, there is no other option.

    This turnback would effectively facilitate additional crowd-busting trams at peak times from Sandyford or Brides Glen. With some luck it won't be needed until Metrolink is in place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Well there is another alternative: they could look at feeding northbound trams at Charlemont to another cross city route via some alternative city-centre routing. What's clear from Luas cross city is that one central connection is not enough, so while Metrolink to Charlemont will alleviate passenger demand on the Luas network, it won't actually alleviate capacity constraints on the Luas network itself (simply because it is not part of the Luas network). Of course, it was always inevitable that more cross city Luas lines would be needed, especially without the Green line south of Charlemont being integrated as part of Metrolink. It's a problem of growth that's new to Dublin but common to other cities, Manchester being the most obvious and comparable example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,932 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I don’t think that anymore on-street cross-city tram routes can be fitted being honest and nor should they be.

    LUAS BXD has caused havoc with the city bus service as it is and every potential cross-city route is going to now have a large number of bus routes passing along it under BusConnects to facilitate the pedestrianisation of College Green.

    The numbers using LUAS Green Line cross-city are far far less than those using the bus services.

    Going underground is the only solution.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,757 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Only additional trams would terminate there though the existing service could continue northwards. There's no possibility of increasing capacity further north



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,757 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Lots of space for cross city luas routes, it's simply a matter of removing more cars. A Gardner st-Tara st-Pearse st route for example is perfectly reasonable. A Patrick St to Church St route also very doable. Just a matter of tackling cars and the abundance of parking. Has been done in pleanty of other cities before. There should also be underground routes to accommodate longer journeys.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,932 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    None of which are even remotely on the planning radar.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,757 ✭✭✭cgcsb




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,932 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well with respect what relevance has it to a discussion about the Luas extension to Finglas?

    It is just getting crayons out for the sake of it.

    There is nothing like that remotely likely to happen in the next 20 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,757 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It doesn't. It was a response to your incorrect statement:


    "I don’t think that anymore on-street cross-city tram routes can be fitted being honest and nor should they be."


    [Edit- <snip>]

    Mod: Do not make **** comments.

    Post edited by Sam Russell on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Does anyone else thinks it's a missed opportunity to have a LUAS stop at the northern side of Tolka Valley Park? Under the current proposals, it's a 5-10 minute walk from the park to a stop. Although this isn't far, I think it's a missed opportunity to encourage greater public use of the park and discourage car use.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,435 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    There's got to be a line somewhere I guess, it can't be a bus stop that has stops at every second junction. One more stop might save some people a 5 minute walk, but it adds 90 seconds to everyones journey beyond that



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Yeah for sure I get that. Though PT is not just getting people to and from work at rush hour. We should fully utilize all amenities in the area, bringing people to the park during the day, sunny evenings and on weekends.

    There are actually very few parks on the whole length of the line, arguably only Stephen's Green and Iveagh Gardens.

    I would argue this is justification enough to have a stop at the northern side of Tolka Valley Park. Even with an extra stop here, the distance between stops is similar to most of the line south of Cabra.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Deadline for submissions is tomorrow:

    The main point for me was to put the the cycle route back in. Removing it from the plan was a big mistake.

    Post edited by Peregrine on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭p_haugh




  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Yeah, it's crazy. We have far too many different agencies with slightly different remits getting in each other's way.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    According to the scheme site, the next step for this project is RO submission in 2023.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,757 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    This will beat all other rail projects in Dublin to completion



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    They started EIA scoping a few months ago. It's a pretty straightforward project.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    I'm sure that's exactly how it'll be marketed and not plugged as some huge milestone in the country's shift to sustainable travel.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    There's reason to believe this might fly along. We've now had 6 Luas projects - the initial 2 lines and 4 extensions. We're old lags at this game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,757 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Agree, lots of experience in the country already with this type of project. No really complex parts, bar the tricky broombridge part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,709 ✭✭✭jd


    The Consultation Report on the Preferred Route is up

    https://downloads.luasfinglas.ie/reports/Luas%20Finglas%20Consultation%20Report%202022.pdf

    I see Dublin City Council have asked for it to continue up St Margaret's Rd to connect with the proposed Metrolink Station at Northwood. This would bring it past IKEA, and DCC's new Central Depot which is under construction at the moment. They've also asked for the cycle track that was to run alongside it to be reinstated




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I think extending to Northwood would be a better idea than crossing the M50. It would probably have to involve sharing space with general traffic on a large section of St Margaret's Rd west of Hampton Wood Dr which would be less than ideal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Thanks for sharing the report. Great to see this future planning from DCC. Extending to Northwood and the Metro makes absolute sense.

    This route could be a first step in a longer vision for Metro West, but it would need to be appropriately segregated so it can be upgraded later to Metro - not the full route from Broombridge - just the radial piece from Charlestown.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Is there a new depot planned or is Broombridge the long term depot?



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    No, none are planned. An expanded Broombridge and Sandyford.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,688 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    If the current Lidl site on St Margarets Road is to be used for a park & ride will the supermarket survive or is it going to be part of a multi storey car park? How many spaces do people feel would be needed for a P&R, Im guessing at least 300 but even that could be undercooked with the amount of commuters coming down the N2



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    4 years to construct 4km of line. Is that serious ?!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Seems reasonable to me - it's through a built up area and from Wellmount Rd northwards will be quite disruptive to build.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,853 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Tender for the GPR survey for luas finglas has being awarded it also included other GPR TII projects if needed such as Luas Lucan



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,794 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    They have preliminary approval to go multistorey with parking at ground and first and the supermarket above it. Similar to the design of all current Lidl developments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,688 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Thanks. Was there ever anything reported as to why they reneged on putting the P&R opposite Charlestown Shopping Centre and chose Lidl on Stargarets Rd instead? Both locations seem strange to me, people are going to be stuck in traffic at rush hour to get in and out of the P&R



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,794 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Because the people drafting the preferred route just assumed the land facing Charlestown would be available.

    It turns out it was privately owned with its on planning permission for apartments so the owner wasn’t gona just hand it over for peanuts.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Any piece of land is available to a state body like TII building infrastructure with compulsory purchase powers. There was no doubt that the land was privately owned and would have to be CPOed like several other properties in the same project.

    The planning application was lodged after the route was announced. The NTA had every right to object and could 100% have stopped it if they wanted. Look at the Aldi site where the NTA said it would interfere with Luas Finglas but was willing to work with Aldi who were uncooperative and had their planning application refused.

    The designers said that, by that stage, they had already moved on from the Charlestown site. The Lidl site keeps all the traffic on the North Road dual carriageway and keeps the site at Charlestown residential which would bring almost 1,500 people living right beside their stop. It was a win-win.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,794 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo




  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Sorry for a slightly off topic bump to this thread, but I think it is somewhat relevant. DCC have started a consultation on a draft Masterplan for the Jamestown industrial estate in Finglas. Looks pretty good in my opinion, although I think that it could have been set up as pure pedestrian on the inside, with parking on the outside, as has been done in other European cities.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,688 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Plenty of space for new houses in that industral estate, it is huge.

    Was anything ever decided to do similar to the Dublin Industrial Estate at all? With the Luas at its doorstep and the extension running alongside the land should be used for high density housing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,112 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    it's been suggested here numerous times, but I don't know if there is anything actually planned.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    I think it's a huge mistake not to include another Luas stop at the northern end of Dublin Industrial Estate. There will be 1.2km between Broombridge and St. Helena's stations.

    Very short sighted in my opinion given the density of homes they could build there, not to mention direct access to the park.




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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Oh, it's planned alright. I believe the last thing I read was that they want to hold off until they have a masterplan complete for the estate before rezoning it, as some developers are already putting through planning applications in there for apartments.

    It was really sparked off by ABP green-lighting a development on the Jamestown Industrial Estate, despite their objections that the masterplan was in the works. They won't rezone large tracts of land without a masterplan again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,112 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    not exactly a huge job to add a station later. I'd imagine they'll put a bridge in to access Broombridge anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Ah you say that, but there are quite a lot of utilities required under the tracks and around the station itself. Without even considering that now, it makes it unlikely to happen.

    Typical Irish planning - no one considered adding a station here to future proof thousands of new homes, which they will eventually build here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,560 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Any housing masterplan is going to have a lot of utility diversion and redeployment works.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    I just had a thought there, would the finglas extension require any new rolling stock? Furthermore, what's the average shelf-life of the Luas trams in general - some are getting on 20 years in service now.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I don't know any official figures, but 40 years is a rough rule of thumb for Trams, though some can run for 60 years or longer, with heavy refurbs, etc.

    I believe the first Citadis trams were delivered in 2000 in France and are still running today with no signs of them being replaced. Also I wonder if they did some heavy maintenance on them, when they extended them.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Not a strong case for another station there - if you moved into the area Broombridge would be a better bet as it offers luas and DART.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    How is it not a strong case? With the proposed new housing densities of 100-300 dwellings per hectare, there is potential to house 30,000 people in this area assuming 200dph and 3 average occupancy.

    The average spacing between Luas stations on Green line is 650m, however the proposed spacing on the Finglas extension is 1.1km despite plans to build the highest density living in the entire city.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Seeing the location on a map it really looks like you could achieve the same result by just having the appropriate pedestrian access to the existing Broombridge station. I mean, in an ideal situation you'd have one much earlier in Cabra and another at your proposed location, but that wouldn't work with the existing Irish Rail station so it wouldn't make sense.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭MICKEYG


    Agreed. Given the shape of the site an additional stop won't add much value.

    Improved pedestrian access to the existing Broadstone stop (and Irish Rail station) is key.



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