Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

tomasrojo · 15-07-2020 10:45am

Duckjob wrote: »

Couldn't the LUAS be split off near Heuston St to go to the Park ?

Hard to do a such a hard left turn after Seán Heuston bridge, I'd guess. Maybe would need a diagonal bridge running to the left of S. Heuston bridge.

Caveat: I have no idea what I'm talking about.

tomasrojo · 15-07-2020 10:47am

magicbastarder wrote: »

the reason i mention it specifically is i was talking about it with my father on monday; he thought the ban on buses should be maintained, a general 'oh, you couldn't allow double deckers into the park!'.

i'm not sure if i won him over with my counter argument.

What is the argument though? I've heard a few people say how awful double deckers would be, but why? As you say I think) many of the people who want it to continue to be a main road also don't want double deckers on it. Ehhh ... ?

Hurrache · 15-07-2020 10:59am

Duckjob wrote: »

Couldn't the LUAS be split off near Heuston St to go to the Park ?

It's a 5 minute walk, if even, to the entrance of the park from the Luas stop at Heuston station. There's no need to spur it off.

I'd argue against the spur from Broombridge towards the park too, it would be better serving bringing it further into west Dublin.

buffalo · 15-07-2020 11:08am

tomasrojo wrote: »

What is the argument though?

Ruins the ambience, doesn't it? They didn't have double decker omnibuses in Victorian times, did they? And don't get me started on the e-scooters!

RobertFoster · 15-07-2020 11:19am

How frequent are the tour buses that go as far as the Phoenix monument and back?

Hurrache · 15-07-2020 11:24am

I recall there being an issue with the tour buses using the park due to the damage they were doing to Chesterfield Avenue, particularly around the areas they pull in and stop, such as the hard shoulder outside the Aras.

magicbastarder · 15-07-2020 11:28am

tomasrojo wrote: »

What the hell is the objection? I know it's out there, but it makes no sense to me.

it's because the engine note of a bus is a minor 5th below that of the cars, so the resulting noise would be discordant.

magicbastarder · 15-07-2020 11:29am

Hurrache wrote: »

I recall there being an issue with the tour buses using the park due to the damage they were doing to Chesterfield Avenue, particularly around the areas they pull in and stop, such as the hard shoulder outside the Aras.

that was before the major resurfacing works.

tomasrojo · 15-07-2020 11:35am

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's because the engine note of a bus is a minor 5th below that of the cars, so the resulting noise would be discordant.

Diabolus in musica?

Actually, hadn't realised there was a quarter tone-based terminology, so a minor 5th is slightly different from a diminished fifth. I never did any quarter-tone music.

a148pro · 15-07-2020 11:36am

In fairness a double decker would look out of place in the park but who cares if it reduced the number of cars

Hurrache wrote: »

It's a 5 minute walk, if even, to the entrance of the park from the Luas stop at Heuston station. There's no need to spur it off.

I'd argue against the spur from Broombridge towards the park too, it would be better serving bringing it further into west Dublin.

Yeah but the Park is big, its probably half an hour walk to the far side, with a reasonable amount of uphill, a lot of people wouldn't be able for it. You wouldn't get many users walking beyond the Zoo from Heuston.

Besides, there is a problem with traffic now and I think the Luas would eliminate a huge amount of the traffic

Also why not acquire a site beyond West Dublin for a large park and ride and the people commuting in cars through the Park would have a viable alternative to sitting in traffic on the quays

Hurrache · 15-07-2020 11:57am

I know the park is big, but it's a pointless investment to bring the Luas the length of it just to cater for those that may not be able to make it from one end to the other.

There is a decent sized carpark, 1,200 spots, at the M3 Parkway station at Dunboyne. There's also a carpark at the Navan Road parkway station, over 100 parking spots. Not sure how busy either get, but I don't think the Navan Road one gets too busy.

The issue is with train capacity though, and I've made the point before that express buses would make a big difference from such park and ride spots. The Navan Road station is served by all buses that use the Navan Road.

a148pro · 15-07-2020 12:01pm

I don't know, I think if the Luas was running up the main avenue it would actually look better, if there were three or so stops for people to hop off it would disperse people around the park and make it really easy for people to come and go

Would be very European, like when you're on the underground and go past the "Zoological Gardens" stop or something!

magicbastarder · 15-07-2020 12:06pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Diabolus in musica?

Actually, hadn't realised there was a quarter tone-based terminology, so a minor 5th is slightly different from a diminished fifth. I never did any quarter-tone music.

don't look at me for inspiration. i only used that example as my wife used to complain that the warning tones on buses for door opening and (something else) were a minor fifth apart.
at least, that's what i think she said.

magicbastarder · 15-07-2020 12:09pm

Hurrache wrote: »

There's also a carpark at the Navan Road parkway station, over 100 parking spots. Not sure how busy either get, but I don't think the Navan Road one gets too busy.

hard to tell from the satellite imagery - it's empty, but the shadows suggest it was taken early enough in the morning, and no clue as to what day of the week:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3773244,-6.3460213,102m/data=!3m1!1e3

google street view shows it probably at less than 10% capacity:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3773645,-6.3455565,3a,75y,253.09h,79.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sKLcK9MYRavlhfV7HaxU1Dw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DKLcK9MYRavlhfV7HaxU1Dw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D286.51746%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Hurrache · 15-07-2020 12:30pm

Last time I dropped someone off there, afternoon midweek, it didn't appear a whole lot busier. That was a while ago but it just never appeared a busy place. If you're on the canal side when a train pulls in in the evenings it doesn't look like a whole load of people disembark.

tomasrojo · 15-07-2020 12:32pm

a148pro wrote: »

I don't know, I think if the Luas was running up the main avenue it would actually look better, if there were three or so stops for people to hop off it would disperse people around the park and make it really easy for people to come and go

Would be very European, like when you're on the underground and go past the "Zoological Gardens" stop or something!

It would be excellent. You can imagine the Luas running up the middle. I guess until it met the phoenix monument anyway.

Stark · 15-07-2020 12:34pm

a148pro wrote: »

I don't know, I think if the Luas was running up the main avenue it would actually look better, if there were three or so stops for people to hop off it would disperse people around the park and make it really easy for people to come and go

Would be very European, like when you're on the underground and go past the "Zoological Gardens" stop or something!

I imagine a shuttle bus would do the job fine. A Luas would be nice but we're so many decades behind other capital cities on the metro/tram front that I imagine the Park should be well down the list of priorities there.

tomasrojo · 15-07-2020 12:49pm

Tangentially related to this: Jack Chambers is going to be the government chief whip.

Hurrache · 15-07-2020 12:53pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Tangentially related to this: Jack Chambers is going to be the government chief whip.

:rolleyes: Condescending smarm oozes from every pore in his body.

Dr_Colossus · 15-07-2020 1:17pm

a148pro wrote: »

In fairness a double decker would look out of place in the park but who cares if it reduced the number of cars

Also why not acquire a site beyond West Dublin for a large park and ride and the people commuting in cars through the Park would have a viable alternative to sitting in traffic on the quays

There are already double decker tourist buses in the Phoenix Park, well those half open top hop on/off buses so don't see the logic to objections to running Dublin Buses through it if cars were reduced/removed.

Hurrache wrote: »

There is a decent sized carpark, 1,200 spots, at the M3 Parkway station at Dunboyne. There's also a carpark at the Navan Road parkway station, over 100 parking spots. Not sure how busy either get, but I don't think the Navan Road one gets too busy.

The issue is with train capacity though, and I've made the point before that express buses would make a big difference from such park and ride spots. The Navan Road station is served by all buses that use the Navan Road.

Another major obstacle to existing park and ride facilities is I believe you have to pay for both the parking and then transport. Many car commuters would have parking included at work so no incentive to park up, pay and pay again to continue your journey. I would favour free parking in designated park and ride facilities for anyone holding a valid transport ticket especially since there's no security provided anyway and everything is at owners risk.

Hurrache · 15-07-2020 1:20pm

Yeah, certainly there should be no parking charge, or discounted at least, if you're taking a train or other form of public transport from such a carpark.

Hurrache · 15-07-2020 1:49pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Tangentially related to this: Jack Chambers is going to be the government chief whip.

And I just read minister of State for the Gaeltacht and Sport.

a148pro · 15-07-2020 2:00pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

It would be excellent. You can imagine the Luas running up the middle. I guess until it met the phoenix monument anyway.

That'll be torn down in some woke storm shortly no doubt

Another variable on the park and ride being free. Why not make all Dublin transport, and buses in particular free? I suspect hassle of getting Leap card is a reasonable impediment to more usage. We live in a world where if things aren't convenient and work out of the box we're not happy

Do it on a trial basis at least, plough in more buses on routes, impose congestion charges on cars etc etc

Come on, who wants to vote for me?

buffalo · 15-07-2020 2:04pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Yeah, certainly there should be no parking charge, or discounted at least, if you're taking a train or other form of public transport from such a carpark.

My dream is a charging model based on how far you live from the car park. We're a 15min walk from our local train station, or a 5min cycle along (footpath) cycle tracks for the most part, yet neighbours drive.

I assume there are plenty of people who live further away who probably drive the whole way into the city centre because they can't get reliable parking at the station.

If you could charge the nearer people a small fortune to encourage walking while discounting those who are coming from further afield, that would be just peachy.

Hurrache · 15-07-2020 2:11pm

And add in an incentive that if you drive with the intention to park and cycle the remaining distance into the city, free parking.

KevRossi · 15-07-2020 3:55pm

Luas line to run up Chesterfield Ave and on to Castleknock train station and to Blanchardstown Shopping Centre. It offers a reliable alternative to the city centre for residents as well as being an option to get to the Park.

Castleknock rd. from Castleknock Gate to auburn Ave. to be one way, or even blocked for through traffic.

Close Castleknock Gate to stop the congestion in the village, have cars enter by Ashtown Gate as it's nearer to the N3.

In the meantime, while the Luas is being built, run buses along the route.

I also cannot fathom how anybody would object to a double decker bus, but finds the constant traffic in the Park to be OK.

Hurrache · 15-07-2020 4:00pm

People along that route already have a decent bus and rail service. Good public transport needs to be spread around the city better, anything else already served by bus and rail can wait, imo.

KevRossi · 15-07-2020 6:29pm

Hurrache wrote: »

People along that route already have a decent bus and rail service. Good public transport needs to be spread around the city better, anything else already served by bus and rail can wait, imo.

I'll have to disagree with you there.

Blanch has officially almost 70,000 people, the train line is to the south of the community, it's over capacity as it is and it runs from there to the east of the city centre. Buses are slow as they have to fight narrow streets and illegal bus lane use into and out of the city. A Luas to Heuston and beyond would open it up a lot more.

Luas has the main benefit that it has a very predictable journey time; bus journeys are hit and miss. The Luas could be extended to Damastown, Northwest and Rosemount Business Parks and on to Ongar and Clonee, with feeder buses and future expansion.

Blanchardstown/Clonee/Clonsilla is car dependent, that needs to stop. Luas and feeder buses along with decent bike and pedestrian infastructure would solve a lot of that.

Hurrache · 15-07-2020 6:45pm

Actually we are broadly in agreement as long as it's brought north of the N3, and/or west of the centre. If it's only going as far as Castleknock, or Blanchardstown village, I think it's an opportunity lost as you're served pretty well in those areas.

Weepsie · 15-07-2020 6:55pm

KevRossi wrote: »

I'll have to disagree with you there.

Blanch has officially almost 70,000 people, the train line is to the south of the community, it's over capacity as it is and it runs from there to the east of the city centre. Buses are slow as they have to fight narrow streets and illegal bus lane use into and out of the city. A Luas to Heuston and beyond would open it up a lot more.

Luas has the main benefit that it has a very predictable journey time; bus journeys are hit and miss. The Luas could be extended to Damastown, Northwest and Rosemount Business Parks and on to Ongar and Clonee, with feeder buses and future expansion.

Blanchardstown/Clonee/Clonsilla is car dependent, that needs to stop. Luas and feeder buses along with decent bike and pedestrian infastructure would solve a lot of that.

Castleknock, blanch village, clonsilla, coolmine, carpenterstown, and parts of ongsr have good rail links.

Mulhuddart, Ladyswell, Corduff all have fairly crap bus links and are not near the railway. The 220 goes to ballymun and takes an eternity. The 17a is a good, regular one to go east and the 38 is soso.

39 and 39a are nice and frequent, but the massive growth in Ongar and Clonsilla have meant that by Hartstown/Huntstown/Blakestown etc you'd struggle to fit into one of their early busses.

Mountview is kind of stuck near but also nowhere near any of the transport options. Kind of lives in a black hole all of its own.

37 is not frequent enough.

70 could do with a little more frequency sometimes, and there's new building happening in clonee and Dunboyne.

Tyrellstown and Hollystown have nothing at all really and they've experienced big or are going to experience big population growth.

So, if the people if Castleknock really cared about the congestion problem they'd be lobbying for Luas or similar through the park and into the heart of the city.

Also, if the people who complain closing gates makes the park inaccessible to those not local can also avail of a tram line that stops at both gates, zoo, visitor centre, papal cross.

It might mean chesterfield avenue is not viable for cycling on anymore, but there are alternative routes at least.if we enacted these type of changes, in only a year or 2 we would probably have noone complaining, except for the contrarians, because the park should then become accessible to pretty much anyone.

The zoo, visitor centre and farmleigh could probably have some form of parking for coaches and disabled people, but any more is unnecessary in the long run unless you're in Garda HQ, St. Mary's, the OPW or OSI

Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

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