Are farmers ever happy?

JupiterKid · 14-07-2020 5:20pm

It seems to me that the gap between urban and rural Ireland that existed for generations has become a very wide chasm in the past 20 years.

RobertKK · 14-07-2020 6:07pm

I take it the OP is a farmer... :P

RandomViewer · 14-07-2020 6:09pm

DS86DS wrote: »

For as long as I can remember, news stories of angry and discontented farmers have kept popping up in the newspapers as well as on television.

Whether it be from complaining about subsidies, to complaing about hedgerows, to complaining about pylons, to complaining about wind turbines, to complaining about foxes and badgers, to complaining about hikers and strollers, to complaining about environmental impositions, to complaining about drones, to complaining about just about everything, they never seem to be happy with their lot in life. Despite being subsided by urban workers, they will nonetheless complain about townies along with tales of this and that being Dublin-centric.

They will complain that their boreen doesn't have the same standards of infrastructure, waste disposal services, public transport or access to other such key services as the evil Dublin-centric Dublin area full of Dubliners, forgetting of course that these urban areas are densely populated ones which also happen to pay more than their fair share of taxes in order to cover and justify such services. They act like they are self-sufficient guardians of the land and have an almost messiah complex that they're keeping the rest of us alive with their hard work and toil. When in reality, they are heavily subsided by government taxes, paid of course in large part by the urban workforce.

They consistently flout environmental laws almost to the point of criminal negligence. Miles upon miles of rivers and groundwater sources throughout the land are heavily polluted thanks to corrupt and incompetent farmers allowing run off from farms to continue with often disastrous results for everything from fresh water fish populations to the sources of drinking water for others.

Greedy farmers often with land on flood plains have for decades strong armed their local gombeen TD's and councillors into getting their parcel of land rezoned and cashing in big time in the thereafter. During periods of heavy rainfall, whole housing estates built within unsuitable river valley areas have been flooded resulting in millions of euros worth of damage. As per usual, if a local authority refuses to grant farmers planning permission to rezone their land to residential - they will kick up a fuss and complain

Whenever they feel the slightest grievance, whether real or imagined - they will decend upon Dublin en masse in their tractors intent on causing traffic chaos throughout the city until they've felt they've gotten their point across and gotten what they wanted in the first place. If that doesn't work, they will bring their tractors down again and thus - complain, again.

In short, it seems like farmers are never happy.

What absolute shyte

RandomViewer · 14-07-2020 6:12pm

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Not for much longer

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/farmers-could-be-forced-to-dump-their-guns-39364088.html

Viva Brexit, buy your ammo in the North

RandomViewer · 14-07-2020 6:15pm

Teachers would whinge way more than farmers

SlowMotion321 · 14-07-2020 6:21pm

RandomViewer wrote: »

Teachers would whinge way more than farmers

Never really understood that myself as I said earlier I taught for a number of years (secondary and adult) and was perfectly happy with my pay and conditions TBH!

Harry Palmr · 14-07-2020 6:21pm

DS86DS has actually described rural dwellers as a whole rather than just farmers. Aging land hoarders ("but its for Johnny when he leaves school") who moan about literally anything that changes the status quo while demanding the "luxuries" that are only possible for high density populations.

14-07-2020 6:27pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

It seems to me that the gap between urban and rural Ireland that existed for generations has become a very wide chasm in the past 20 years.

When the farmers marched on Dublin in that historic protest in 1966, they were often joined by men coming home from their work in the evenings, living in falling-down buildings nearby, and were fed by the housewives of the area; because they could see they were in the same boat.

Things have since improved for farmers, but they still face a lot of the same pressures as working class people in the cities. Construction workers in particular. Both sets of workers are hugely exposed to cyclical economic policies and the financial markets, and many have worked in these sectors from a young age and would find it impossible to progress in any other employment.

But I cringe when I see farmers driving into Dublin in tractors to protest, it sends out the wrong message; the fact that these machines represent debt, not wealth, is often lost on people. They got that tractor-protest idea from the French, but forgot to factor-in how enormously unpopular it made French farmers.

EmmetSpiceland · 14-07-2020 7:26pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But I cringe when I see farmers driving into Dublin in tractors to protest, it sends out the wrong message; the fact that these machines represent debt, not wealth, is often lost on people. They got that tractor-protest idea from the French, but forgot to factor-in how enormously unpopular it made French farmers.

Take the farmer’s “beef” with the meat processors, it’s quite clear to everyone that the processors and the supermarkets are making a tidy profit.

How are City folk supposed to show their support for the farmers there? If we stop buying meat products the farmers are still going to get a “raw” deal.

The government can try get involved but what can they say other than say “c’mon” to the big shots. Although, it would be nice for someone in government to “sack up” and threaten to focus on the employment practices of these places, treating staff like dirt, quietly deporting injured foreign workers and their, piss poor, handling of this Covid crisis.

But, of course, that won’t happen. “Big farms” will supply their meat for whatever price their given, the processors will mark up their price to the supermarket supplier and they will, in turn, mark up what they like to us.

Can’t see anything changing there.

Mr_Muffin · 14-07-2020 7:31pm

I live in an area with plenty of dairy farmers. There is no shortage of money between them. Of course, they don't admit to this and they constantly go on about how broke they are, but the huge mansions and new jeeps both themselves and their spouse/children all have tell a different story.

Are they even happy? The ones I know seem pretty content anyway!

14-07-2020 8:26pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Take the farmer’s “beef” with the meat processors, it’s quite clear to everyone that the processors and the supermarkets are making a tidy profit.

How are City folk supposed to show their support for the farmers there? If we stop buying meat products the farmers are still going to get a “raw” deal.

There is nothing that Irish consumers of beef can do, or are really expected to do, because over 90 per-cent of our beef is exported anyway.

The Government could do lots of things. They are trying to get EU protected status for Irish beef, ideally suckler beef, which will shore up a lot of farms in the West and in the border counties, these are guys that are typically not running viable farms and are the worst-affected by factory prices.

There also needs to be legislation to prevent sharp practices in the beef industry, mainly between producers and processors, like unilaterally amending contracts and punitive clauses in contracts and all sorts of dodgy stuff that goes on -- I don't know a lot of detail about that, but that's apparently an important source of revenue loss.

And finally and most importantly, everyone needs to open the books and offer more transparency, such as how much retailers are paying processors. They don't have to show the farmers or their competitors this information, but some kind of third party, like a regulator. There is currently no such overseeing authority in this country, which is leaving farmers wide open for manipulation or dare I say collusion.

There are probably many more things that I haven;t thought of, but this isn't something that farmers, or consumers, by protesting will resolve. It has to have political will, and it didn't have enough of that under the last Government.

Every one million revenue earned in beef farming raises 2 million for the economy, much of which is generated in the regions. Its importance for the regions, but also the economy as a whole, is hard to overestimate and something must be done by a small but influential cabal of middlemen.

14-07-2020 8:31pm

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

I live in an area with plenty of dairy farmers. There is no shortage of money between them. Of course, they don't admit to this and they constantly go on about how broke they are, but the huge mansions and new jeeps

What do you want them to do, ride a bike with a calf slung over their shoulders?

At least dairy is one system where yes it is possible to make a living. But it's also the most labour intensive. If you're working from 6am to 9pm, you deserve to have an averagely comfortable income, don't you?

Grueller · 14-07-2020 8:40pm

This thread kinda didn't go the way the OP expected I'd imagine.

whelan2 · 14-07-2020 8:40pm

893bet wrote: »

7 days a week.

365 days a year

Angus2018 · 14-07-2020 9:36pm

5% of farmers are under 35
50% of farmers are over 55
30% of which are over 65

Are farmers ever happy? Thats a tough question but someday there won't be any farmers and then this country is absolutely F'd. Farmers way over retirement age with sons and daughters not wanting or able to take over cause of how bad the money and future is paints a dire picture of Ireland full of abandoned farms.

When we buy all our beef in from the ashes of the Amazon cause we didn't support farming in Ireland nobody will be happy.

BorneTobyWilde · 14-07-2020 9:40pm

Depends who's milking them at the end of the day.

SlowMotion321 · 14-07-2020 10:05pm

Angus2018 wrote: »

5% of farmers are under 35
50% of farmers are over 55
30% of which are over 65

Are farmers ever happy? Thats a tough question but someday there won't be any farmers and then this country is absolutely F'd. Farmers way over retirement age with sons and daughters not wanting or able to take over cause of how bad the money and future is paints a dire picture of Ireland full of abandoned farms.

When we buy all our beef in from the ashes of the Amazon cause we didn't support farming in Ireland nobody will be happy.

So....that's.. a ..yes then?

Rows Grower · 14-07-2020 10:33pm

Angus2018 wrote: »

5% of farmers are under 35
50% of farmers are over 55
30% of which are over 65

Are farmers ever happy? Thats a tough question but someday there won't be any farmers and then this country is absolutely F'd. Farmers way over retirement age with sons and daughters not wanting or able to take over cause of how bad the money and future is paints a dire picture of Ireland full of abandoned farms.

When we buy all our beef in from the ashes of the Amazon cause we didn't support farming in Ireland nobody will be happy.

I'm very surprised that 50% of farmers are 55 or under, that's a nice statistic to read.

Aongus Von Bismarck · 14-07-2020 11:01pm

I live in Germany, and I can assure you that farmers over here are a very vocal group, have strong representation in Government, and still have the power to influence policy.

Kylta · 14-07-2020 11:03pm

jimgoose wrote: »

Hi, ye Jackeens! Farmers have shotguns, JCBs and acres and acres of land out woop-woop. Just sayin', like...

You left out the inbred part woop woop

Kylta · 14-07-2020 11:06pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The jackeen has very little understanding of the role that agriculture and farming plays in the food chain. Yes, even their 'legendary' batter burger has Irish beef in them.

It would appear they also have very little understanding of the role of subsidies in making that food affordable.

I wonder what Brazilian beef will taste like at McDonald's

ruwithme · 14-07-2020 11:07pm

Ah jayus, your some rascal starting this one op.

We are at our happiest when we're moaning and groaning. (i am anyway)

Kylta · 14-07-2020 11:10pm

ruwithme wrote: »

Ah jayus, your some rascal starting this one op.

We are at our happiest when we're moaning and groaning. (i am anyway)

I'm happiest when giving and getting stick, moaning and groaning is for the weak.

gogo · 15-07-2020 12:15am

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

I live in an area with plenty of dairy farmers. There is no shortage of money between them. Of course, they don't admit to this and they constantly go on about how broke they are, but the huge mansions and new jeeps both themselves and their spouse/children all have tell a different story.

Are they even happy? The ones I know seem pretty content anyway!

They can build huge mansions because they generally own the site they’ve built on.. most farmers do an awful lot of the build work themselves, before ever looking for a mortgage... it’s well known in banks that by the time a farmer come in for a mortgage the house will be already at the first floor. And they will have got it there themselves with very little money ...
Most of those Jeep’s will be on finance, They drive big jeeps because they are practical for farming and hence double job with work that needs doing, including driving over land.

There is money to be made in dairy, but I’d never begrudge them it.. it’s an absolute calling of a job, 24/7 352 days of the year....

JohnnyFlash · 15-07-2020 12:19am

Most farmers are happy when their children do very well in school, go to university, and get a decent job that doesn't involve farming.

drake70 · 15-07-2020 12:28am

jimgoose wrote: »

In the quiet words of the Lord Weird Slough Feg, "Awake, you ghouls! Drink their ichor! Feast on their giblets!"

"Kiss my axe!"

Dickie10 · 15-07-2020 12:33am

id imagine food safety and having our own food supply is an absolultley fantastic thing to have in this country, seeing as we are not very industrialised as regards steel, car or other heavy industry. the world is going in to a dangerous age , we really have to watch out not to sully the one decent homogenous industry we have which is irish food. you only need to look at america and its food industry to see that if we lose family farm models we are really in the shhit, leaving our golden goose in the hands of big corporations. the dairy sector seems to be doing ok but its our beef industry we as the ordinary irish person should all cheerlead and support, Larry Goodman and co are doing there utmost to break small family farms this would be disastrous. I think the likes of our tech industry like intel and HP are probably on borrowed time before they slink off into the night to somewhere in south east Asia. same with pharma companies. we need to hold onto our food industry and its green image for all its worth and keep it in the hands of ordinary irish people as best we can. Wasnt this what we wanted for the whole of 15th to 20th century? for irish land to be in hands of the ordinary working class irish person?

15-07-2020 1:18am

gogo wrote: »

There is money to be made in dairy, but I’d never begrudge them it.. it’s an absolute calling of a job, 24/7 352 days of the year....

And just in case anyone thinks it's big bucks, the average dairy-farm income is 60k per year.

I think beef is somewhere around half that, and less again for sucklers.

Mysterypunter · 15-07-2020 1:24am

I know a few farmers, ruddy country folk. Based on a small sample size, the answer is yes. 4 out of 4 are happy. 3 out of 4 are gamblers, 1 out of 4 are successful gamblers, the 2 that are not lost in order of most successful first, 5 million quid and 22 million quid. They are still happily gambling away, but probably won't win back their few quid, they seem to be on the back foot consistently, and are probably betting money that has been in the mattress for years. So in summary, 4 happy farmers, 2 successful ones and 2 unsuccessful. In fact the only unhappy farmer I ever heard about was the farmer who applied for membership of the big smelly farmers association. He was turned down twice for not being smelly enough, so decided to apply a third time. He jumped into a slurry bath, didn't wash himself for 3 months, and wiped his arse with the application form. One day a letter arrived from the big smelly farmers association, and he opened it up, confident that he would be accepted. The letter began with "Dear Sir" but the next word was unfortunately. He could not believe that he had been rejected for a third time, the reason given was, "In the big smelly farmers association, we don't wipe our arses".

endacl · 15-07-2020 1:37am

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Their grievances are genuine.

Unlike overpaid, underworked leeches who call themselves teachers.

Teacher here. No grievances at all. Not a single one. Happy out here halfway through a three month holiday. Hey, I didn’t make the rules. I just benefit from them.

I presume you pay taxes? Nice one. You’re funding my holiday. And my awesome pension!

topper75 · 15-07-2020 10:52am

I'm 45 and I predict that if I live to full life expectancy that in my lifetime I will see significant corporate involvement in Irish farming, land ownership, management - the lot. Coca Cola are already sniffing around Munster dairy as part of their diversification strategy.
I also predict corporate investment in tech on farmland that will making present day farming look like the middle ages. The human element will be pushed out essentially.

If the factories/processors of today represent an unhealthy concentrated bottleneck in the Irish food industry, wait until you see what happens with big corporations control EVERYTHING from field to shelf. Now you already had disastrous collective farms under communism, but if the profit motive is added it will get mean. Consumer will lose big time.

Huntergonzo · 15-07-2020 11:30am

I wrote a little poem this morning for the craic, feel free to expand or amend:

The townies gathered for an afternoon chat,
Avocado cappuccinos all round, the chatter began,
"Farmers owning land, we'll have none of that"
Time for action, every townie woman, child and man

So out of town they strode,
The nearest farmer beware,
An army of angry chinos, scarfs and manbags marched the road,
They want to be heard, because "life is not fair"

They gathered at his gate to roar and shout,
Unfazed the farmer filled his tank full of slurry,
Backed it up to the gate and opened the spout,
Which moved the townies on in a hurry

Robert Frost quality that :-)

topper75 · 15-07-2020 12:07pm

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I wrote a little poem this morning...

Are you the farmer?

Huntergonzo · 15-07-2020 12:56pm

topper75 wrote: »

Are you the farmer?

Haha yes

jimgoose · 15-07-2020 1:32pm

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I wrote a little poem this morning for the craic...

Oh for fuck sake - we'll have to offset that with a shot of Paddy Kavanagh:

They laughed at one I loved —
The triangular hill that hung
Under the Big Forth. They said
That I was bounded by the whitethorn hedges
Of the little farm and did not know the world.
But I knew that love’s doorway to life
Is the same doorway everywhere.

Ashamed of what I loved
I flung her from me and called her a ditch
Although she was smiling at me with violets.

But now I am back in her briary arms
The dew of an Indian Summer morning lies
On bleached potato-stalks—
What age am I?

I do not know what age I am,
I am no mortal age;
I know nothing of women,
Nothing of cities,
I cannot die
Unless I walk outside these whitethorn hedges.

Angus2018 · 15-07-2020 2:11pm

topper75 wrote: »

I'm 45 and I predict that if I live to full life expectancy that in my lifetime I will see significant corporate involvement in Irish farming, land ownership, management - the lot. Coca Cola are already sniffing around Munster dairy as part of their diversification strategy.
I also predict corporate investment in tech on farmland that will making present day farming look like the middle ages. The human element will be pushed out essentially.

If the factories/processors of today represent an unhealthy concentrated bottleneck in the Irish food industry, wait until you see what happens with big corporations control EVERYTHING from field to shelf. Now you already had disastrous collective farms under communism, but if the profit motive is added it will get mean. Consumer will lose big time.

Yep! The only way farming will survive in 20-30 years is if the country moves towards mega farms owned by businesses with huge feedlots and dairy parlours that could handle 1000+ cattle. On the bright side it would mean a liveable income with holidays and workers rights but it would also mean the death of the family owned farm in Ireland.

Example - When Jim passes on with no children to take over the farm gets divided. All the children live away and have good jobs so the land is rented to a neighbouring farm. Say then that farmer passes away so his farm gets split until there's nobody to take over. Thousands of acres of farmland unused. The only solution is for a mega farm to move in and take over all of it.

Its a depressing thought but a reality unfortunately.

Huntergonzo · 15-07-2020 2:12pm

jimgoose wrote: »

Oh for fuck sake - we'll have to offset that with a shot of Paddy Kavanagh:

They laughed at one I loved —
The triangular hill that hung
Under the Big Forth. They said
That I was bounded by the whitethorn hedges
Of the little farm and did not know the world.
But I knew that love’s doorway to life
Is the same doorway everywhere.

Ashamed of what I loved
I flung her from me and called her a ditch
Although she was smiling at me with violets.

But now I am back in her briary arms
The dew of an Indian Summer morning lies
On bleached potato-stalks—
What age am I?

I do not know what age I am,
I am no mortal age;
I know nothing of women,
Nothing of cities,
I cannot die
Unless I walk outside these whitethorn hedges.

Haha Paddy who? If he tries real hard he might be as good as me some day

Mr_Muffin · 15-07-2020 2:13pm

Angus2018 wrote: »

Yep! The only way farming will survive in 20-30 years is if the country moves towards mega farms owned by businesses with huge feedlots and dairy parlours that could handle 1000+ cattle. On the bright side it would mean a liveable income with holidays and workers rights but it would also mean the death of the family owned farm in Ireland.

Example - When Jim passes on with no children to take over the farm gets divided. All the children live away and have good jobs so the land is rented to a neighbouring farm. Say then that farmer passes away so his farm gets split until there's nobody to take over. Thousands of acres of farmland unused. The only solution is for a mega farm to move in and take over all of it.

Its a depressing thought but a reality unfortunately.

Farms have been around forever and now we're 20-30 years away from this happening? Why hasn't this already happened?

topper75 · 15-07-2020 2:25pm

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

Farms have been around forever and now we're 20-30 years away from this happening? Why hasn't this already happened?

A whole range of things today vary from 'already'. E.g.:

Because farm incomes are no match for most industrial jobs, where you clock out in the evening.
Because commodity markets are globalised and Ireland is small.
Because all other industries have seen much concentration over the last century, including primary sector ones such as forestry and mining.
Because Ireland is chiefly a services economy and the democratic will to focus on supporting an individual small farmer is not what it was.
Because farming is no longer labour intensive and based on a considerably large and difficult to admin workforce.
Because financiers will see corps as a more diversified entity and therefore lower risk. Turnips rotten? Paddy 50 acres goes down. Corp still has maize, cocoa, dairy - whatever. This last point will be the big driver.

I'm sure there are other factors too not occurring to me in this instant. The changes I am predicting (consolidation and corporatisation) will play out over decades and won't be apparent overnight.

jimgoose · 15-07-2020 2:27pm

topper75 wrote: »

A whole range of things today vary from 'already'. E.g.:

Because farm incomes are no match for most industrial jobs, where you clock out in the evening.
Because commodity markets are globalised and Ireland is small.
Because all other industries have seen much concentration over the last century, including primary sector ones such as forestry and mining.
Because Ireland is chiefly a services economy and the democratic will to focus on supporting an individual small farmer is not what it was.
Because farming is no longer labour intensive and based on a considerably large and difficult to admin workforce.

I'm sure there are other factors too not occurring to me in this instant. The changes I am predicting (consolidation and corporatisation) will play out over decades and won't be apparent overnight.

Yep. In fact, there's been corporate involvement in big farms here for quite some time, and it has to increase.

jimgoose · 15-07-2020 2:29pm

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Haha Paddy who? If he tries real hard he might be as good as me some day

I have lived in important places, times
When great events were decided : who owned
That half a rood of rock, a no-man's land
Surrounded by our pitchfork-armed claims.

I heard the Duffys shouting "Damn your soul"
And old McCabe stripped to the waist, seen
Step the plot defying blue cast-steel -
"Here is the march along these iron stones."

That was the year of the Munich bother. Which
Was most important ? I inclined
To lose my faith in Ballyrush and Gortin
Till Homer's ghost came whispering to my mind.
He said : I made the Iliad from such
A local row. Gods make their own importance.

CrankyHaus · 15-07-2020 2:30pm

Great poem

jimgoose · 15-07-2020 6:42pm

drake70 wrote: »

"Kiss my axe!"

Announce me, dwarf.

Er... Sláine Mac Roth... a bone-splitter, a reddener of swords, a pruner of limbs who delights in red-frothed, glorious carnage. No welcome visitor. Not a friendly face. Your lives would be prolonged for getting out of his way. Excellent with the axe and sword he is. Far from trifling the wounds he gives with his ungentle, woe-working weapons. Well damaged his enemies. Their tribes are full of vacancies. But I expect you know that yourselves now!

DS86DS · 21-07-2020 8:09am

A lot of angry farmers here it seems.

Tig98 · 21-07-2020 8:23am

Angus2018 wrote: »

Yep! The only way farming will survive in 20-30 years is if the country moves towards mega farms owned by businesses with huge feedlots and dairy parlours that could handle 1000+ cattle. On the bright side it would mean a liveable income with holidays and workers rights but it would also mean the death of the family owned farm in Ireland.

Ehh I dunno. Our dairy (and beef) exports is largely due to our perceived image abroad of small scale and grass fed animals. If we move to big industrial ranches then the quality and the quality perception will take a steep drop and so will demand.

mariaalice · 21-07-2020 8:59am

Its to do with the media in a way, the IFA and the like are a trade union so they only make the news when they are complaining the rest of the time farmers make the news is the likes of some farmer tormenting his neighbors with a crow banger or is prepared to go on hunger strike over a rock or a right of way.

So in the media its either the trade union or the loons in farming that get the most attention.

The farmer who is making a modest living and is content enough never makes the news.

nigeldaniel · 21-07-2020 10:04am

I know a farmer who would give Gordon Gekko a run for his money, and then another who is a much smaller operator who is very nice and decent. Farmers, in general, are a mixed bag just like the rest of us I suppose.

king_of_mayo · 21-07-2020 10:08am

First year in college shared a house with a farmer's son. He was on the full grant. Bank holiday rolls up and he's says why don't we live it up in his home village and you can crash at my parents. The size of the house! And farm! Unreal, I says to him "and you on the full grant?" and he's replies "sure the land earns you money!". I never forgot that.

Are farmers ever happy?

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