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Home heating automation

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Comments

  • #2002
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 24,006 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    I think the Energia offer was only for houses over a certain age without zoned heating


  • #2003
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    @ deezell:

    Clearly you know a lot more about plumbing than me. I would really appreciate a reply to the question I put to you at the start of this post.

    This is regarding you earlier statement that "An open loop at the end of a long run of TRV radiators is not uncommon, it facilitates faster response on the most remote radiators.”

    I would appreciate your insight.

    Thank you.


  • #2004
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    2011 wrote: »
    @ deezell:

    Clearly you know a lot more about plumbing than me. I would really appreciate a reply to the question I put to you at the start of this post.

    This is regarding you earlier statement that "An open loop at the end of a long run of TRV radiators is not uncommon, it facilitates faster response on the most remote radiators.”

    I would appreciate your insight.

    Thank you.

    It's used in legacy systems, maybe old large period house, water circulates around a loop. Radiators are tapped onto the large diameter hot flow pipe, dropping their cooled return back to the same pipe. A two pipe system is like your present system, a seperate cooled return pipe, but looped to allow continuous flow of hot past the rads for instant response. A very large house/guesthouse/hotel, community heated apartments, any installation where the boiler is not fired by radiator demand. Properly insulated, the losses would be trivial, and in a private residence would be effectively zero, as the circulation pump and boiler would be off during zero CH demand If the demand is HW only, and this is gravity fed, the pump is off, and if the HW is pumped, then usually the system is zone valved. Only if you have a single fully pumped zone, to CH and HW, will such a loop circulate in a HW only situation, assuming all rads were closed. If it's the summer, then you're losing a little while the cylinder heats, no real loss if it's winter.
    It was common in such rudimentary heating installations to have to walk the house and close every rad valve to get HW only in the summer, loop or not. It would be highly unlikely to see such a loop at the end of a heating pipe run in an ordinary house, but you never know, there's a huge amount of DIY and make it up as you go plumbing out there. It could be mooted as a frost protection method, if distant rooms have their rads turned off, it's not impossible static pipes under the uninsulated floorboard space vented to the ouside could freeze. People lived in houses like that, frost in the morning on the inside of the windows and on the ceiling nearest the wall. I should know. Mind you, we had no underfloor pipes or radiators to worry about.


  • #2005
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Is your heating zoned Shef? Once Energia saw ours was zoned they wouldn't do the netatmo install.

    It has water and temp at the moment to a single stat....so two zones


  • #2006
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    deezell wrote: »
    It doesn't have HW timer control or relay, just CH. If you already had a manual HW timer, or a cylinder stat, you just leave these. Good option for existing wall stat replacement, as a wired version like Tado is available. It also can add smart TRVs. I don't see mention of geofencing, but it has Alexa, Google Home and Apple Home kit connectivity, so you can use these to automate away functions. No subs or fees. I'm not sure how the energia people are able to scoff your grant entitlement by only smart upgrading a single zone, but I guess its the same ruse that Hubcontroller used, which is some vague statistical justification for cost savings without any extra zoning. You can't get it in free if you previously drew the grant for 'real' heating control upgrades, or even bogus ones. If you get this free stat, you won't be able to get a grant later for 'real' heating control upgrades, such as zone valve installation. DIY price is €139 from Currys this minute, which is not bad, it's costing energia a lot less than this, plus maybe €50 per Install, (they'll only take on the most basic single zone jobs), installers get through several per day, and who knows how much they get for your grant. They wont tell you. Nice one.
    Read the plan change small print, you might be paying for this in the long run.
    Smart TRVs are all much the same imo, they're a mini version of the wall stat with a valve actuator.

    I think the grant is 700 isn’t it? Can you buy the equipment yourself and get it installed and claim grant?


  • #2007
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I think the grant is 700 isn’t it? Can you buy the equipment yourself and get it installed and claim grant?

    Don't see why not, if you can get an approved installer to split quote into parts and materials. Could be messy with VAT etc. Make me sick to think utilities could trouser 700 for a cheap stat and a 20 minute install.


  • #2008
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I think the grant is 700 isn’t it? Can you buy the equipment yourself and get it installed and claim grant?

    Don't see why not, if you can get an approved installer to split quote into parts and materials. Could be messy with VAT etc. Make me sick to think utilities could trouser 700 for a cheap stat and a 20 minute install.


  • #2009
    xckjoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    I'm gonna wire in my new Tado Smart Thermostat and want to double check the wiring as there's only L(in)1, L(out)4, N(in)2 and N(out)3 notation (vs. the COM, NO, NC notation of the Tado). I found this old thread that looks like it might be applicable. So for me it would be L(in)1 to COM and L(in)4 to NO and then the two N's are joined parked in the Tado?



    wiring.jpg

    Edit: One other quick question. Are those 3 "parking" blocks on the Tado connected or will I need to connect the N wires together and then connect a common line to one of them?


  • #2010
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    xckjoo wrote: »
    I'm gonna wire in my new Tado Smart Thermostat and want to double check the wiring as there's only L(in)1, L(out)4, N(in)2 and N(out)3 notation (vs. the COM, NO, NC notation of the Tado). I found this old thread that looks like it might be applicable. So for me it would be L(in)1 to COM and L(in)4 to NO and then the two N's are joined parked in the Tado?



    wiring.jpg

    Edit: One other quick question. Are those 3 "parking" blocks on the Tado connected or will I need to connect the N wires together and then connect a common line to one of them?

    You have it right. Right also re. the parking terminals, but there should be enough space in one to push both N wires in, to park and link.


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  • #2011
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭championc


    Tado should be able to give you full exact details of how to wire it up


  • #2012
    xckjoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    deezell wrote: »
    You have it right. Right also re. the parking terminals, but there should be enough space in one to push both N wires in, to park and link.

    Cheers. Don't think the two wires will fit in one terminal, but should have some wago clips floating around. If I join the neutrals do I still need a common line running to the parking terminal? Can't see an obvious need for it but I'm more used to DC than AC circuits


  • #2013
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Might be silly question, knowing me it is, so all the recommendations seem to be for Tado, is this the best on market?

    In terms of smart radiator with smart heating controls


  • #2014
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭limnam


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Might be silly question, knowing me it is, so all the recommendations seem to be for Tado, is this the best on market?

    In terms of smart radiator with smart heating controls


    Tado were ahead of the game as far as feature sets IMHO.


    But a lot of other houses have caught up now.



    I think if you put everything together. The quality of the product, their support is excellent, they've also opened up the API to things like HA.


    Pretty much the only negative aspect I've heard is the sub, which you may not even need.


  • #2015
    xckjoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    limnam wrote: »
    Tado were ahead of the game as far as feature sets IMHO.


    But a lot of other houses have caught up now.



    I think if you put everything together. The quality of the product, their support is excellent, they've also opened up the API to things like HA.


    Pretty much the only negative aspect I've heard is the sub, which you may not even need.
    The subscription is kinda a positive in my eyes. The company needs a continuing source of income from somewhere. Better this than them trying to entice people to buy new systems or going bust. And the fact they've open APIs means if they do go bust I'll still be able to use it with things like HA


  • #2016
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Cheers. Don't think the two wires will fit in one terminal, but should have some wago clips floating around. If I join the neutrals do I still need a common line running to the parking terminal? Can't see an obvious need for it but I'm more used to DC than AC circuits

    No, No need to use the park. Check there's enough room for the Wago. A single section of small terminal block will do also.


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  • #2017
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭limnam


    xckjoo wrote: »
    The subscription is kinda a positive in my eyes. The company needs a continuing source of income from somewhere. Better this than them trying to entice people to buy new systems or going bust. And the fact they've open APIs means if they do go bust I'll still be able to use it with things like HA


    Yeah I'm happy to pay it, fairly reasonable too for the year.


  • #2018
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭championc


    limnam wrote: »
    Yeah I'm happy to pay it, fairly reasonable too for the year.

    Or you could do what I did and buy a V3 Internet Bridge on eBay and get the Open Window Detection and the GeoFencing for free. Every other part of my system is V3+

    I got a V3+ Internet Bridge with the starter kit, but sold it later on Adverts


  • #2019
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 24,006 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    championc wrote: »
    Or you could do what I did and buy a V3 Internet Bridge on eBay and get the Open Window Detection and the GeoFencing for free. Every other part of my system is V3+

    I got a V3+ Internet Bridge with the starter kit, but sold it later on Adverts

    Geofencing is going to get harder and harder to do with a lot of the changes coming to iOS 14 and Android


  • #2020
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭limnam


    championc wrote: »
    Or you could do what I did and buy a V3 Internet Bridge on eBay and get the Open Window Detection and the GeoFencing for free. Every other part of my system is V3+

    I got a V3+ Internet Bridge with the starter kit, but sold it later on Adverts

    Happy to pay for the service. They offer excellent support, the software/hardware is top notch.

    I'd much rather pay and have them around than not and they go out of business.

    Servers/sapce/power/people to run them etc. It's not cheap.


  • #2021
    xckjoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Just wanted to say that I got this up and running and all's looking good. Feeling super fancy with my little white box on the wall instead of the clunky analog timer. Thanks to everyone for the help!


    championc wrote: »
    Or you could do what I did and buy a V3 Internet Bridge on eBay and get the Open Window Detection and the GeoFencing for free. Every other part of my system is V3+

    I got a V3+ Internet Bridge with the starter kit, but sold it later on Adverts


    Is Open Window Detection a paid feature? Seems to be just showing up as a option for me. Haven't looked at geofencing yet. Don't go anywhere these days to need it :D


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  • #2022
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Just wanted to say that I got this up and running and all's looking good. Feeling super fancy with my little white box on the wall instead of the clunky analog timer. Thanks to everyone for the help!






    Is Open Window Detection a paid feature? Seems to be just showing up as a option for me. Haven't looked at geofencing yet. Don't go anywhere these days to need it :D

    Open window is supposed to be part of the optional subscription, V3+ ? It
    It was included in V2 along with Geofence. Open window is not really relevant with just a main stat in a central location, say hall, living or landing. I've only seen it alert once in years for a Tado TRV, and that was when, em, the window over it was left open.


  • #2023
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭championc


    Another fantastic example of the versatility of the Tado. My wife needed a few bits of washing dried urgently on a radiator. So simply a matter of up'ing the temperature on the one rad, the boiler came on for about 3 mins at most, heated the single rad, went into circulation for a minute and then and shut down.


  • #2024
    limnam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭limnam


    championc wrote: »
    Another fantastic example of the versatility of the Tado. My wife needed a few bits of washing dried urgently on a radiator. So simply a matter of up'ing the temperature on the one rad, the boiler came on for about 3 mins at most, heated the single rad, went into circulation for a minute and then and shut down.


    Tado's the job


  • #2025
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    Could be useful also when the cat wants her radiator hung cat bed heated. Time it for certain periods, see does she figure it out. Our belated cat preferred the gap in the double panel kitchen radiator, with the convection fins in between. She would squeeze between the panels, sitting on the fins, baking away. She knew it came on full in the mornings.


  • #2026
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    Just noticed my Tado phone app has updated to a new interface. V5.11.1. I presume this is the new app? Still have all my V2 stat skills as they are now calling them. I didn't pay the one off sub either, so they must be winding down the old app.


  • #2027
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭championc


    deezell wrote: »
    Just noticed my Tado phone app has updated to a new interface. V5.11.1. I presume this is the new app? Still have all my V2 stat skills as they are now calling them. I didn't pay the one off sub either, so they must be winding down the old app.

    One change I noticed was that if I override the temperature of one rad (which I did and posted about yesterday), it runs that override until the next timed scheduled time, when it then reverts to your schedule again.


  • #2028
    Toots
    Administrators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,927 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Toots


    Would anyone be able to recommend some sort of smart heating controller alternative to Climote?

    My parents are elderly and their heating controls are in an awkward spot under the stairs, and during the winter they're constantly in and out boosting it for an hour if the house gets cold. They were looking at the climote offer from Airtricity but I was wondering is there a simpler/cheaper alternative (I had the Airtricity climote in my old house, and while it worked great, I was waiting 4 months to get the thing installed, which isn't ideal) Basically what they want is a way to turn the heating on and off/set schedules with their phones. Also it needs to be compatible with Alexa. They don't have zoned heating, but they would like to be able to access the heating from outside the house (turn it on so the house is warm if they go out etc)


  • #2029
    john_doe.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 643 ✭✭✭john_doe.


    Hi

    i was looking for some advice on attached logic diagram to see does it make sense

    Current Set Up
    3 zones:
    • Zone 1 -9 Rads + 1 towel rail
    • Zone 2 -2 Rads + 2 towel rails
    • Zone 3 Hot water

    Solid fuel stove
    old boiler with no Switch Live
    3 Analogue clocks that control the heating & hot water

    14 Radiators List
    1. Home Office
    2. Spare Bedroom
    3. Living Room
    4. Hall
    5. Towel Rail Main Bathroom
    6. Kitchen 1
    7. Kitchen 2
    8. Back Bathroom
    9. Play Room
    10. Bedroom 2
    11. Towel Rail – Bedroom 2
    12. Main Bedroom
    13. Towel Rail Main Bedroom
    14. Basement


    Picture of set up here : https://photos.app.goo.gl/RHi2Rx4zwunso5CW9

    Proposed Set UP
    Install Drayton 3 Channel controller with smart TRVS associated signal boosters and Manual Thermostats
    Replace the Lex box with PLC and house all parts in small electrical box. Have a manual switch for override of hot water and heating incase the drayton fails.

    1. Home Office (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
    2. Spare Bedroom (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
    3. Living Room (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
    4. Hall (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
    5. Towel Rail Main Bathroom
    6. Kitchen rad 1 (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted && Temp Sensor groups kitchen)
    7. Kitchen rad 2 (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted && Temp Sensor groups kitchen)
    8. Back Bathroom (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
    9. Play Room (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
    10. Bedroom 2 (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted & Temp Sensor)
    11. Towel Rail – Bedroom 2
    12. Main Bedroom (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted & Temp Sensor)
    13. Towel Rail Main Bedroom
    14. Basement

    Progress : Have installed the Smart TRVs , the boosters and the thermostats.
    Progress: Have Purchased the Siemens PLC Logo Unit,its expansion block & designed logic but not installed

    The Siemens PLC Unit comes with a Display and also an Ethernet port for checking Input and outputs statuses.

    https://www.automation24.biz/siemens-logo-230-rce-6ed1052-1fb08-0ba0

    (I4)Drayton Ch 1 = Channel 1 on the Drayton which is set to control Zone 1 ground floor heating
    (I5)Drayton Ch 3 = Channel 3 on the Drayton which is set to control Zone 2 upstairs heating
    (I6)Drayton HW= Channel on the Drayton that controls hot water.
    I1= a manual switch which when on turns on allows the Drayton to call the boiler.
    I2= a manual switch that is used to turn on heating manually incase the drayton fails, this is emergency use only, But in situation drayton goes down and dont want a cold house
    I3= a manual switch that is used to trun on hot water manually incase the drayton fails.
    I7= Stat on hot water cylinder
    I8= Stat on the Stove , the stove is connected to radiators.
    Q1= The Boiler
    Q2= Pump for the boiler
    Q3= Pump Zone 1 (ground floor heating)
    Q4= Pump Zone 2 (upstairs heating)
    Q6= Pump for the stove


  • #2030
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    championc wrote: »
    One change I noticed was that if I override the temperature of one rad (which I did and posted about yesterday), it runs that override until the next timed scheduled time, when it then reverts to your schedule again.

    If you override the rad manually, by turning the TRV knob, it runs for the time set in Settings/Rooms/Manual Control/Timer. If you override on the app, it goes to the next event, until you adjust the slider back to a fixed time, which becomes the default for subsequent app overrides.


  • #2031
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    Toots wrote: »
    Would anyone be able to recommend some sort of smart heating controller alternative to Climote?

    My parents are elderly and their heating controls are in an awkward spot under the stairs, and during the winter they're constantly in and out boosting it for an hour if the house gets cold. They were looking at the climote offer from Airtricity but I was wondering is there a simpler/cheaper alternative (I had the Airtricity climote in my old house, and while it worked great, I was waiting 4 months to get the thing installed, which isn't ideal) Basically what they want is a way to turn the heating on and off/set schedules with their phones. Also it needs to be compatible with Alexa. They don't have zoned heating, but they would like to be able to access the heating from outside the house (turn it on so the house is warm if they go out etc)

    What does the heating control(s) under the stairs look like. Make, Model or even a photo.
    Do they have a hot water cylinder. Is it controlled also from under the stairs.
    Assuming the house has no wall thermostat, my initial suggestion is a wired smart stat located in hall on the higher stairs panelling, to be easily connected to the current controls wiring. Tado or Netatmo wired, ideal for this. Also cost effective are Hive and Drayton Wiser, which are wireless to their wired receiver, so the thermostat can be wirelessy mounted where they spend the most time. This would be a simple install for an electrician or competent handyman.


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  • #2032
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    john_doe. wrote: »
    Hi

    i was looking for some advice on attached logic diagram to see does it make sense..... [ \Quote]

    it makes no sense whatsoever, but I'm sure it will work for you. Me, I would just have installed the Wiser receiver ( it is the Wiser 3 channel receiver/hub?) in place of the 3 timers, tested that the wireless stats controlled their zones, let the manual stove stat and cylinder stat continue to do their thing, and introduce the individual smart TRVs one a time, schedule, test and check if their associated zone pump ran and the boiler fired. I'd worry with full trv control that you haven't left some open rads (other than towel rails) to absorb stove heat. You had a well fitted manifold system, try not to introduce contradictory or crossed connections, which will have stuff on when it should be off and vice versa. E.g. your diagrams have multiple stove stat NO connections, but these all seem to be the same pair? It's not clear what anything does.
    The bit about the boiler having no SL, I presume it's a basic mains controlled boiler, on or off, no permanent live for digital circuits or temperature displays or post purge or any of that modern pansy stuff. (I'm joking). The only issue wirh this boiler might be the current requirement via the contacts of the lex box relay, as it's powering the entire boiler which has a decent inductive start up surge. Still, lex box or it's replacement should be up to it, just check the boiler mains rating and the relays rating thats firing the boiler.
    I think I've commented on all this before in this thread? Logically it's simple. Three pumps controlled by three relays for each zone call, CH1, CH2 and HW. Boiler is fired for any of these calls, except when the stove relay is closed, boiler should be cut and one or both CH zone pumps should be activated, even if the zone stat is not calling (herein lies the problem of all rads closed by TRVs). The HW pump to cylinder, and open towel rails may not be sufficient to sink the heat from a raging stove, besides which it should have a gravity feed from the stove, otherwise the stove has a closed loop until the pumps come on and open the non return valves on each zone. Again, I assume you have the Drayton Wiser controller, you mention of manual stats is at odds with the smart TRVs which require the wiser channel hub to fire the boiler. Perhaps you're not using the main stats at all? Keep at it and good luck.


  • #2033
    Toots
    Administrators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,927 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Toots


    deezell wrote: »
    What does the heating control(s) under the stairs look like. Make, Model or even a photo.
    Do they have a hot water cylinder. Is it controlled also from under the stairs.
    Assuming the house has no wall thermostat, my initial suggestion is a wired smart stat located in hall on the higher stairs panelling, to be easily connected to the current controls wiring. Tado or Netatmo wired, ideal for this. Also cost effective are Hive and Drayton Wiser, which are wireless to their wired receiver, so the thermostat can be wirelessy mounted where they spend the most time. This would be a simple install for an electrician or competent handyman.

    I've attached pics of the control panel there, and also of the make/model details of the boiler.

    They do have a cylinder/tank in the hotpress, which is an immersion heater and is controlled by a switch in the hotpress and one of those old-style rotary timers where you push little sections of the dial in for the time you want it on.

    There actually is an old thermostat in the hall, but it's not connected to anything, it was from the old oil heating system that they had in the house about 30 years ago when the boiler was out in the shed. I don't think there's any functioning thermostat controls in the house at all now.


  • #2034
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    Toots wrote: »
    I've attached pics of the control panel there, and also of the make/model details of the boiler.

    They do have a cylinder/tank in the hotpress, which is an immersion heater and is controlled by a switch in the hotpress and one of those old-style rotary timers where you push little sections of the dial in for the time you want it on.

    There actually is an old thermostat in the hall, but it's not connected to anything, it was from the old oil heating system that they had in the house about 30 years ago when the boiler was out in the shed. I don't think there's any functioning thermostat controls in the house at all now.

    It's just a case of getting a smart stat like Tado or the others wired in place of that little timer. Tado is a simple wire in job. Netatmo also. Hive and Drayton Wiser smart stats have a wireless receiver which replaces that timer, then a stat which can be placed anywhere. Netatmo also have a wireless version, Tado similarly with an optional receiver at extra cost. Any competent diy'er or sparks would fit one in in a jiffy. Plumbers tend to recommend more basic models like the EPH ember, which is not as capable as the others, but probably as easy to set as the existing timer. Honeywell Home is another Smart stat option, easy install, turms on heat as you get near the house etc.
    They all cost €140-200, sometimes good discounts on amazon, or the power companies will stick one in free and claim your grant to (more) than cover their cost, plus you might have to change your plan and rates.

    Good Amazon price for Tado this minute. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FZ3P393/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_T6KdFb8PAWPK9

    Energia will fit Netatmo free if you sign up their plan.
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FZ3P393/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_T6KdFb8PAWPK9


  • #2035
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    41% discount with Netatamo

    https://onebigswitch.ie/offers/energy/?utm_campaign=energy_multi&utm_content=200713&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email_obsie&utm_term=cta1

    Not sure if link will open but on OneBigSwitcch


  • #2036
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭championc


    Toots wrote: »
    I've attached pics of the control panel there, and also of the make/model details of the boiler.

    They do have a cylinder/tank in the hotpress, which is an immersion heater and is controlled by a switch in the hotpress and one of those old-style rotary timers where you push little sections of the dial in for the time you want it on.

    There actually is an old thermostat in the hall, but it's not connected to anything, it was from the old oil heating system that they had in the house about 30 years ago when the boiler was out in the shed. I don't think there's any functioning thermostat controls in the house at all now.

    Or for £25 extra, you can get the Tado Starter Kit which includes 2 x Smart TRV's too. A pair of TRV's would normally cost about £100

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YCY3T1S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_5IRdFbCTTSHZB


  • #2037
    xckjoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    championc wrote: »
    Or for £25 extra, you can get the Tado Starter Kit which includes 2 x Smart TRV's too. A pair of TRV's would normally cost about £100

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YCY3T1S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_5IRdFbCTTSHZB
    I think if you don't already have TRVs on the radiators, they'll have to have the whole system drained to install them. Not the worst job but it would probably bring it from a DIY job to one you'd want a pro to do.


  • #2038
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    (S)he just wants a swap from the stairs cupboard timer to an accessible stat with an app. Any of the main brands are ideal, It's getting it installed quickly that's more important.


  • #2039
    Toots
    Administrators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,927 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Toots


    Thanks guys, I’ll have a look at those. I’m not sure about the thermostatic valves, that might be too much for the auld pair to take on board. My husband used to be a plumber, so if it came to having to drain the system, he could do it, although he’d prefer to avoid it because the plumbing is a bit temperamental in my parents house.

    They like the look of the Hive. I had a quick look at the app and it looks nice and straightforward. Dad was looking on Amazon and saw this https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B088LTFQFW/ref=sspa_dk_detail_2?pd_rd_i=B088LTFQFW&pd_rd_w=sX3fs&pf_rd_p=1055d8b2-c10c-4d7d-b50d-96300553e15d&pd_rd_wg=7rPMu&pf_rd_r=QFVB2SGC1T84A2VRN1JD&pd_rd_r=484fb03b-4f20-4682-b07a-c2bff08b27f2&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE1UDI2Ukg5WERIWTEmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA3MDA5ODk1WlNCQVg1WTZCQ0EmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDUzNTU2MjE1UVc2SldLTkZJVFcmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWwmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl&th=1 he likes the look of the brushed chrome (matches the light fittings) but I’m assuming that’s just the switch bit and they’d need some sort of receiver to go in where the timer is under the stairs? Also has anyone ever heard of that brand? It seems weirdly cheap and also has no reviews.


  • #2040
    Toots
    Administrators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,927 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Toots


    Sorry guys, just an update, the parents got confused yesterday when I was asking them about zones. Apparently when they turn on their heating it also heats the water. They can't turn on their heating without heating the water, but if they want hot water without heating they can use the immersion switch in the hotpress. Not sure if that makes a difference to the options suggested.


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  • #2041
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    Toots wrote: »
    Sorry guys, just an update, the parents got confused yesterday when I was asking them about zones. Apparently when they turn on their heating it also heats the water. They can't turn on their heating without heating the water, but if they want hot water without heating they can use the immersion switch in the hotpress. Not sure if that makes a difference to the options suggested.

    The MoesGo is a cheap Chinese take on the smart stat market. Iirc, it and similar I've came accross requires mains power to the stat, which you already have to the timer. It's probably ok, you're on your own when it comes to setting up app access, but no reason why it should not perform the basic functions of temperature control, timing, and manual remote switching of the stat when away. It's worth a punt at £50.

    Now to your HW. I guessed you had a single zone. I note on the image of the glow worm boiler there is a mode switch to enable CH or HW only mode, or both. This would imply either a three port valve internal to the boiler, and the appropriate plumbing, or an optional external valve. At the simplest, gravity heating of the cylinder can be achieved by turnimg off the CH circulation pump, assuming cylinder has a Seperate gravity feed from the boiler. Set your husband on this one. If 2 zone mode is plumbed, you can get a two zone smart stat with an extra terminal to control and switch the zones. Tado, Hive, Nest Drayton will all control CH and HW, wiring depends on what's already there. If that mode switch on the boiler actually works, I would just use that for the summer, HW without CH.


  • #2042
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    Should have also said the MoesGo is a wired stat, no receiver, just divert the existing timer wiring to it.


  • #2043
    Toots
    Administrators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,927 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Toots


    It's the potentially crappy app that's putting me off that, but I suppose with the price it might be worth trying. I think the likes of the Hive/Tado have good straightforward apps which would be important for my parents. I have some of those chinese smart plugs and while they work well, the app is not very user friendly.

    I'll get the husband to have a look at what way the boiler is set up - I've just had a look under the stairs and the heating is running right now and only the little radiator symbol is showing on the display. They've never touched the mode button on it, it's how the installers set it up when they put it in about 2 years ago.


  • #2044
    john_doe.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 643 ✭✭✭john_doe.


    "it makes no sense whatsoever, but I'm sure it will work for you"

    the logic is basically a reproduction of what the Lex box is doing. The Lex box that is there currently needs to be replaced as it is faulty so it was either a case of buying another or the PLC.


    . Me, I would just have installed the Wiser receiver ( it is the Wiser 3 channel receiver/hub?)

    Yes its a 3 channel

    I'd worry with full trv control that you haven't left some open rads (other than towel rails) to absorb stove heat.

    there is also no smart TRV on Radiator 14.

    your diagrams have multiple stove stat NO connections, but these all seem to be the same pair? It's not clear what anything does.

    the stove stat connections are just logical and not physical i.e there is only one stove stat input but its referenced by the logic in a few places.
    the Logo logic diagrams are a bit confusing the way they lay them out , i have added comments to the attached which hopefully clears it up?

    ignore the manual switches if needed , they are only there for a backup if the drayton fails and i need to turn on the system by flipping them. There are two manual physical overrides. I2 (heating manual). I3(hot water manual). they would only be activated in situation where the drayton goes down- ive heard there have been couple of reported instances a year of this, so wanted to have a way of turning on system if drayton stopped working. I1 (automation on) is another manual switch , that is always switched on- it probably serves no purpose really and could be removed.

    The bit about the boiler having no SL, I presume it's a basic mains controlled boiler, on or off, no permanent live for digital circuits or temperature displays or post purge or any of that modern pansy stuff. (I'm joking).

    exactly

    The only issue wirh this boiler might be the current requirement via the contacts of the lex box relay, as it's powering the entire boiler which has a decent inductive start up surge. Still, lex box or it's replacement should be up to it, just check the boiler mains rating and the relays rating thats firing the boiler.

    Good point. Thanks

    I think I've commented on all this before in this thread?

    you have , thanks for that , but i put it on the long finger till now as couldnt get a plumber or electrician.

    Again, I assume you have the Drayton Wiser controller, you mention of manual stats is at odds with the smart TRVs which require the wiser channel hub to fire the boiler. Perhaps you're not using the main stats at all? Keep at it and good luck.

    Yes i have the Drayton, the manual timers will be removed. i also have the drayton smart room stats though in some rooms, they are little square boxes that allow you to get a better temperature reading than at the TRV. For example in kitchen i have two radiators , the drayton stat groups them together as a logic "kitchen" stat that makes the call.

    https://wiser.draytoncontrols.co.uk/smart-room-thermostat


  • #2045
    fitzparker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭fitzparker


    Would anyone know of the Netatamo controls heating and hot water separate?

    Enerigia are offering it.

    We don't use hot water (have power shower ) so would like it to control the heating only and not turn on the hot water.

    Thanks


  • #2046
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    fitzparker wrote: »
    Would anyone know of the Netatamo controls heating and hot water separate?

    Enerigia are offering it.

    We don't use hot water (have power shower ) so would like it to control the heating only and not turn on the hot water.

    Thanks

    Netatmo is a CH smart thermostat only. They have no HW timer function. If you have direct boiler HW system, or if you have a HW cylinder but don't heat it with your boiler, or if you don't require remote timing option of your HW, then Netatmo is fine. It can be a wired unit or wireless, so it can be directly wired in place of an existing mechanical thermostat. If you have no thermostat, just a boiler or zone timer, you can install the wireless Netatmo in the main zone area, with it's wireless receiver connected to the boiler, or zone valve if you have more than one zone.


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  • #2047
    fitzparker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭fitzparker


    deezell wrote: »
    Netatmo is a CH smart thermostat only. They have no HW timer function. If you have direct boiler HW system, or if you have a HW cylinder but don't heat it with your boiler, or if you don't require remote timing option of your HW, then Netatmo is fine. It can be a wired unit or wireless, so it can be directly wired in place of an existing mechanical thermostat. If you have no thermostat, just a boiler or zone timer, you can install the wireless Netatmo in the main zone area, with it's wireless receiver connected to the boiler, or zone valve if you have more than one zone.

    Perfect, SOunds like it would work for us.

    Im not sure what I have, just a controls has one button for CH and one for HW (we very rarely turn the HW one on) then just the one thermostat controlling the whole house at one temp ( not multi zone)


  • #2048
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    fitzparker wrote: »
    Perfect, SOunds like it would work for us.

    Im not sure what I have, just a controls has one button for CH and one for HW (we very rarely turn the HW one on) then just the one thermostat controlling the whole house at one temp ( not multi zone)

    A wired Netatmo or Tado is ideal for this. Just swap out the stat. Leave your controller with CH on all the time, the smart stat will fully control timing and temperature.


  • #2049
    john_doe.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 643 ✭✭✭john_doe.


    john_doe. wrote: »
    "it makes no sense whatsoever, but I'm sure it will work for you"

    the logic is basically a reproduction of what the Lex box is doing. The Lex box that is there currently needs to be replaced as it is faulty so it was either a case of buying another or the PLC.


    . Me, I would just have installed the Wiser receiver ( it is the Wiser 3 channel receiver/hub?)

    Yes its a 3 channel

    I'd worry with full trv control that you haven't left some open rads (other than towel rails) to absorb stove heat.

    there is also no smart TRV on Radiator 14.

    your diagrams have multiple stove stat NO connections, but these all seem to be the same pair? It's not clear what anything does.

    the stove stat connections are just logical and not physical i.e there is only one stove stat input but its referenced by the logic in a few places.
    the Logo logic diagrams are a bit confusing the way they lay them out , i have added comments to the attached which hopefully clears it up?

    ignore the manual switches if needed , they are only there for a backup if the drayton fails and i need to turn on the system by flipping them. There are two manual physical overrides. I2 (heating manual). I3(hot water manual). they would only be activated in situation where the drayton goes down- ive heard there have been couple of reported instances a year of this, so wanted to have a way of turning on system if drayton stopped working. I1 (automation on) is another manual switch , that is always switched on- it probably serves no purpose really and could be removed.

    The bit about the boiler having no SL, I presume it's a basic mains controlled boiler, on or off, no permanent live for digital circuits or temperature displays or post purge or any of that modern pansy stuff. (I'm joking).

    exactly

    The only issue wirh this boiler might be the current requirement via the contacts of the lex box relay, as it's powering the entire boiler which has a decent inductive start up surge. Still, lex box or it's replacement should be up to it, just check the boiler mains rating and the relays rating thats firing the boiler.

    Good point. Thanks

    I think I've commented on all this before in this thread?

    you have , thanks for that , but i put it on the long finger till now as couldnt get a plumber or electrician.

    Again, I assume you have the Drayton Wiser controller, you mention of manual stats is at odds with the smart TRVs which require the wiser channel hub to fire the boiler. Perhaps you're not using the main stats at all? Keep at it and good luck.

    Yes i have the Drayton, the manual timers will be removed. i also have the drayton smart room stats though in some rooms, they are little square boxes that allow you to get a better temperature reading than at the TRV. For example in kitchen i have two radiators , the drayton stat groups them together as a logic "kitchen" stat that makes the call.

    https://wiser.draytoncontrols.co.uk/smart-room-thermostat

    Traced the existing wires yesterday.
    The PLC logic works (in simulation anyway)
    Hopefully the logic makes sense from plumbing perspective.


  • #2050
    garo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭garo


    I have a question about pump overrun after the boiler shuts down. I have an old “dumb” boiler Ideal Classic FF18 - 15 years old 84% efficient but works well. I have an Evohome system to control CH and HW and a Grundfos pump. There is a zone valve for hot water and TRVs on every radiator. I don’t know if there is a bypass.

    So the pump shuts down as soon as the boiler goes off - I assume they are wired together. This means that the boiler can often be quite hot for a while. I would like to have the pump overrun for a bit to take the latent heat out. Is there a way to do this while also making sure the pump is not running when the HW valve and all the TRVs are closed?


  • #2051
    deezell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭deezell


    garo wrote: »
    I have a question about pump overrun after the boiler shuts down. I have an old “dumb” boiler Ideal Classic FF18 - 15 years old 84% efficient but works well. I have an Evohome system to control CH and HW and a Grundfos pump. There is a zone valve for hot water and TRVs on every radiator. I don’t know if there is a bypass.

    So the pump shuts down as soon as the boiler goes off - I assume they are wired together. This means that the boiler can often be quite hot for a while. I would like to have the pump overrun for a bit to take the latent heat out. Is there a way to do this while also making sure the pump is not running when the HW valve and all the TRVs are closed?
    This will do the trick.
    https://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/timer-relays/8966810/


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