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Infrastructure investment in a post covid-19 world

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Comments

  • #52
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Nermal wrote: »
    Using the courts to do what you couldn't achieve at the ballot box.

    I really don't think that it is, to be honest. The conservative government ran an election campaign that said they were going to protect the environment, signed up to the Paris Agreement of their own free will, and ran another campaign that included the fact that they signed up to the Paris agreement as proof of their green credentials.

    They can't have it both ways, claiming to be green, and then abandoning/ignoring it whenever they want.
    Nermal wrote: »
    The government needs to apply a bit more scrutiny to the opinions of judges.

    A very sinister approach to justice. The law applies to the government just as much as it applies to the people, and it's ridiculous and dangerous to suggest otherwise. If the government wanted the third runway to be built without issue, then they should have looked at what effect it would have on the countries Paris Agreement responsibilities, not just pretended that they don't exist.


  • #53
    Kevtherev1
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭Kevtherev1


    Some news and i will put it here as it related to infrastructure investment. As we know ireland it taking a case to oppose the 14billion tax the EU has said is owed to us by apple.


    It has cost millions in lost value as stated in following article.
    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/losses-14billion-apple-account-set-22306198



    I was just listening to today with sarah mcinerney on rte. She has just said this apple tax case will have its ruling next week. Have not found any article confirming this online.


    I wonder will the govt and apple appeal the case if they lose it. (Ie court rules the money in account is irelands) There will be a big debate kicking off in the dail next week no doubt lol


  • #54
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,196 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Kevtherev1 wrote: »
    Some news and i will put it here as it related to infrastructure investment. As we know ireland it taking a case to oppose the 14billion tax the EU has said is owed to us by apple.


    It has cost millions in lost value as stated in following article.
    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/losses-14billion-apple-account-set-22306198



    I was just listening to today with sarah mcinerney on rte. She has just said this apple tax case will have its ruling next week. Have not found any article confirming this online.


    I wonder will the govt and apple appeal the case if they lose it. (Ie court rules the money in account is irelands) There will be a big debate kicking off in the dail next week no doubt lol

    I'll admit that I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think that only a small percentage of that money would be due to Ireland. The rest is due to the countries that the tax should have been paid in.


  • #55
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    I'll admit that I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think that only a small percentage of that money would be due to Ireland. The rest is due to the countries that the tax should have been paid in.

    How does that work?

    Say country A says we want €3 bn of that for us. How do they claim it? Apple should have paid tax here! Well why didn't they? Was it VAT or corporation tax or some other tax? How is the tax to be calculated? Or is it we would just like some of this free money?

    This is made up nonsense. If Apple did not pay tax, it is Ireland that should get the tax as it is Ireland that is the tax authority and did not claim it under their laws that are now considered incorrectly applied, if the judgement goes that way.

    If other countries are due tax, then they should claim it through their own tax laws. Tax is not an EU competence, merely competition laws.


  • #56
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,530 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    How does that work?

    Say country A says we want €3 bn of that for us. How do they claim it? Apple should have paid tax here! Well why didn't they? Was it VAT or corporation tax or some other tax? How is the tax to be calculated? Or is it we would just like some of this free money?

    This is made up nonsense. If Apple did not pay tax, it is Ireland that should get the tax as it is Ireland that is the tax authority and did not claim it under their laws that are now considered incorrectly applied, if the judgement goes that way.

    If other countries are due tax, then they should claim it through their own tax laws. Tax is not an EU competence, merely competition laws.

    The EU Commission have already warned that other EU countries might have a claim to the money. Other countries seem to be adopting a wait and see approach until after the appeal ruling.

    In reality if the case is overturned I suspect the money will sit in an escrow account for a long, long time while the issues you raise are sorted out. I wouldn't be too confident in factoring it into any urgent infrastructure spending plans.

    Ireland may not get Apple's €13bn back taxes in full, EU says


  • #57
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    The EU Commission have already warned that other EU countries might have a claim to the money. Other countries seem to be adopting a wait and see approach until after the appeal ruling.

    In reality if the case is overturned I suspect the money will sit in an escrow account for a long, long time while the issues you raise are sorted out. I wouldn't be too confident in factoring it into any urgent infrastructure spending plans.

    Ireland may not get Apple's €13bn back taxes in full, EU says

    That article is from 2016 and sourced from the Indo. Hmmm.

    The judgement is one that concerns competition, not tax. The underpayment of tax gives Apple a competition advantage. Paying the tax removes that competitive advantage.

    How do other countries claim the tax as it would fall under Irish tax laws that should have applied if the (supposed) illegality of the provisions that Apple took unlawful advantage. Their claims would apply anyway, irrespective of the judgement, and would be additional to the amount underpaid to Ireland.

    [I am not a tax lawyer!]


  • #58
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,612 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    That article is from 2016 and sourced from the Indo. Hmmm.

    The judgement is one that concerns competition, not tax. The underpayment of tax gives Apple a competition advantage. Paying the tax removes that competitive advantage.

    How do other countries claim the tax as it would fall under Irish tax laws that should have applied if the (supposed) illegality of the provisions that Apple took unlawful advantage. Their claims would apply anyway, irrespective of the judgement, and would be additional to the amount underpaid to Ireland.

    [I am not a tax lawyer!]

    I am no tax expert, but many sources claimed that the money could be claimed by other Euro states. The state insists that the deal that Apple had was available to other companies. I would be inclined to think that the gov of the day would have tended to offer it to anyone.


  • #59
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    I am no tax expert, but many sources claimed that the money could be claimed by other Euro states. The state insists that the deal that Apple had was available to other companies. I would be inclined to think that the gov of the day would have tended to offer it to anyone.

    The idea that other countries could share the tax was floated by the competition commissioner who is obviously an international tax expert (not). The EU has no competence on tax. I would think her enthusiasm for sharing the tax was to increase the support for the case.


  • #60
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,612 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The idea that other countries could share the tax was floated by the competition commissioner who is obviously an international tax expert (not). The EU has no competence on tax. I would think her enthusiasm for sharing the tax was to increase the support for the case.

    Very dirty tricks by her.


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  • #61
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,196 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The idea that other countries could share the tax was floated by the competition commissioner who is obviously an international tax expert (not). The EU has no competence on tax. I would think her enthusiasm for sharing the tax was to increase the support for the case.


    Are you a tax expert? (Genuine question)


  • #62
    Kevtherev1
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭Kevtherev1


    Newstalk is reporting Ireland / Apple have WON their appeal against EU competition commission. In relation to the Apple taxes 13 billion.



    So Ireland wont get the money. And the vested business and multinational interests breath a sigh of relief.


  • #63
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Kevtherev1 wrote: »
    Newstalk is reporting Ireland / Apple have WON their appeal against EU competition commission. In relation to the Apple taxes 13 billion.



    So Ireland wont get the money. And the vested business and multinational interests breath a sigh of relief.

    From what I remember, no other company used this method to avoid tax so why would any other multinational breath a sigh of relief.


  • #64
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,612 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Great news. I am not a lawyer or a tax expert but the idea of the Commission retroactively changing our tax policy decades ago send out the wrong message to the business world.


  • #65
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    That article is from 2016 and sourced from the Indo. Hmmm.

    The judgement is one that concerns competition, not tax. The underpayment of tax gives Apple a competition advantage. Paying the tax removes that competitive advantage.

    How do other countries claim the tax as it would fall under Irish tax laws that should have applied if the (supposed) illegality of the provisions that Apple took unlawful advantage. Their claims would apply anyway, irrespective of the judgement, and would be additional to the amount underpaid to Ireland.

    [I am not a tax lawyer!]
    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Are you a tax expert? (Genuine question)

    If you read the previous post quoted above, you would already know the answer.

    The decision has gone in Apple's and Ireland's favour.


  • #66
    namloc1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Is there going to be any infrastructure news in the July Stimulus package? From what I've been reading it is mostly focused on current expenditure measures/supports with very little capital focus. Any thoughts?


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  • #67
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Is there going to be any infrastructure news in the July Stimulus package? From what I've been reading it is mostly focused on current expenditure measures/supports with very little capital focus. Any thoughts?

    The distinction between capital and current expenditure can be blurred.

    In the aftermath of the crash, the Irish Gov borrowed hugely to pay dole to tose out of work. That was current expenditure.

    They could have chosen to hire builders to finish the half built houses, and to start building the planned and approved M20, and the Dart Underground. That would have been capital expenditure.

    Now we have a huge national debt and not enough houses and no Dart Underground.

    Our national debt is a multiple of the cost of the bail out to the banks because of the high social welfare costs.

    NAMA is congratulated for selling all the loan assets quickly at a price higher than the trivial price (50% discount) that they were assigned to them for. If they got them at full book value, they would be measured on how much of that they got back - not an artificial figure. Many of their sales were flipped at huge profits by the vulture funds that bought them, with no claw back for the state. Those profits were not even subject to Irish tax.

    We need to spend hugely on infrastructure - the M20, Metrolink, Dart Underground, Dart Expansion, and very big on social housing.


  • #68
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Irish macroeconomic policy is consistent in its ignorance of counter cyclical fiscal policy.

    If you aren’t cash rich for infrastructural projects it doesn’t make sense to commence construction when there are labour shortages in the industry and when construction inflation is high.

    That’s aside from the stupidity of the number of redesigns all the infrastructure projects have had. How much has been spent to date just on planning and design of the DART Expansion, Swords/Airport metro and Cork-Limerick road improvements throughout the years

    And the shortsightedness too. There are “relief roads” of Newcastlewest and Abbeyfeale in planning despite it being clear that traffic levels at Newcastlewest will require a motorway in the medium term.


  • #69
    namloc1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    €115m for transport related items in the €7.4bn Stimulus plan which is about 1.6%.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/b8bc5-july-jobs-stimulus-plan/


  • #70
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    €115m for transport related items in the €7.4bn Stimulus plan which is about 1.6%.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/b8bc5-july-jobs-stimulus-plan/

    €0.25 million for zero emissions local link services? So they are buying 2 new buses?


  • #71
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    €0.25 million for zero emissions local link services? So they are buying 2 new buses?
    Charging infrastructure too.

    It's quite underwhelming. But not underwhelming by Irish standards all the same.


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  • #72
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    €0.25 million for zero emissions local link services? So they are buying 2 new buses?

    I would think 4 or 5 EV taxis would be the most they could get for that.

    An EV bus would cost more than €300k. So not even one bus.

    I was hoping they would commit to fast tracking the Metrolink.


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