Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Formation Flying over Lucan

  • 12-07-2020 11:50am
    #1
    numbnutz
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭


    Is there anything to say that formation flying over a densely populated area is prohibited. This morning we have Baldonnel's finest formation flying over housing estates. Airshows are conducted away from populated areas and their flight plans certainly do not perform formation flying over housing estates so why are we different in this country?


Comments

  • #2
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Just them there myself. Looked to be 3 PC-9s. But they were quite distant, may have been 4.

    Airshows acrobatic displays aren't the same as formation flying as part of a transit.


  • #3
    pidgeoneyes
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭pidgeoneyes


    numbnutz wrote: »
    Is there anything to say that formation flying over a densely populated area is prohibited. This morning we have Baldonnel's finest formation flying over housing estates. Airshows are conducted away from populated areas and their flight plans certainly do not perform formation flying over housing estates so why are we different in this country?

    It's a flypast for the National Day of Commemoration. Not an airshow.


  • #4
    numbnutz
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭numbnutz


    I know its not an airshow. It was just for context in relation to formation flying and safety...that's all.
    Don't get me wrong it's a great sight and I love watching them in Baldonnel when I get the chance, I just didn't know what the answer to my question was.


  • #5
    Gaoth Laidir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    numbnutz wrote: »
    Is there anything to say that formation flying over a densely populated area is prohibited. This morning we have Baldonnel's finest formation flying over housing estates. Airshows are conducted away from populated areas and their flight plans certainly do not perform formation flying over housing estates so why are we different in this country?

    Minimum altitude above a built-up area is 1500 ft agl, unless on approach or departure from an airport. You live between two buse airports so you shouldn't be surprised to have planes flying over.


  • #6
    EchoIndia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    numbnutz wrote: »
    Is there anything to say that formation flying over a densely populated area is prohibited.

    If it was prohibited do you think the Air Corps would regularly conduct such activities?


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Gaoth Laidir wrote: »
    Minimum altitude above a built-up area is 1500 ft agl, unless on approach or departure from an airport. You live between two buse airports so you shouldn't be surprised to have planes flying over.

    GAT has their own 'Rules of the Air'. So the above won't necessarily apply to them.


  • #8
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Are you new to Lucan? Planes of all types are a regular feature, given proximity to Weston, Baldonnel and even Dublin Airport. Formation flying happens over Lucan every summer with the air shows. Light aircraft doing laps all weekend is the norm. The only thing I've ever had concern about is the towing of banners, which is thankfully less common these days.


  • #9
    GBX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,021 ✭✭✭✭GBX


    numbnutz wrote: »
    Is there anything to say that formation flying over a densely populated area is prohibited. This morning we have Baldonnel's finest formation flying over housing estates. Airshows are conducted away from populated areas and their flight plans certainly do not perform formation flying over housing estates so why are we different in this country?

    The airfield has been in use since 1917. Long before people lived in the housing estates in Lucan and other areas close by.


  • #10
    faoiarvok
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 645 ✭✭✭faoiarvok


    Gaoth Laidir wrote: »
    Minimum altitude above a built-up area is 1500 ft agl, unless on approach or departure from an airport. You live between two buse airports so you shouldn't be surprised to have planes flying over.

    SERA 5005 says:
    (f) Except when necessary for take-off or landing, or except by permission from the competent authority, a VFR flight shall not be flown:

    (1) over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an open-air assembly of persons at a height less than 300 m (1 000 ft) above the highest obstacle within a radius of 600 m from the aircraft;

    That’s a general rule though, not formations in particular. Is there a formation rule?

    Also worth noting these rules are for civil aviation, and while military will normally conform to them too, they’re not necessarily bound by them.


  • #11
    EchoIndia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    A playback of FR24 from this morning shows the flight at 1,700 feet when holding.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    numbnutz
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭numbnutz


    Thanks for the replies. Very much appreciated.


  • #13
    HTCOne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 893 ✭✭✭HTCOne


    As said, the military can pretty much do whatever they want. Civil rules don't apply to them. If they are operating under due regard or declare MARSA (Military Assumes Responsibility for Separation of Aircraft), they don't even have to talk to ATC.


  • #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    HTCOne wrote: »
    As said, the military can pretty much do whatever they want. Civil rules don't apply to them. If they are operating under due regard or declare MARSA (Military Assumes Responsibility for Separation of Aircraft), they don't even have to talk to ATC.

    MARSA only applies in the USA, it’s an FAA term.


  • #15
    HTCOne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 893 ✭✭✭HTCOne


    Deleted User wrote: »
    MARSA only applies in the USA, it’s an FAA term.

    Well that explains why only US mil have ever done it to me, thanks 👍


  • #16
    AnRothar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 599 ✭✭✭AnRothar


    Deleted User wrote: »
    GAT has their own 'Rules of the Air'. So the above won't necessarily apply to them.
    GAT is general air traffic.
    OAT is Operational Air Traffic or outside air temperature depending on who you ask.
    MARSA only applies in the USA, it’s an FAA term.
    Incorrect Eurocontrol also used it.


    2.4.2 Safety Distance between two or more Formation Flights

    2.4.2.2 This responsibility shall be accepted from the respective formation leaders by
    stating “MARSA” , relieving the ATCO from his responsibility to maintain prescribed
    IFR separation minima in regard to the formation flights concerned.


  • #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sorry correct, I meant OAT.

    You’ll find MARSA is used in Europe because of the large number of US military traffic in Germany etc. It isn’t used here which is more to the point.


  • #18
    AnRothar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 599 ✭✭✭AnRothar


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You’ll find MARSA is used in Europe because of the large number of US military traffic in Germany etc.

    You are incorrect.
    Eurocontrol saught to develop rules for the enhanced integration of Operational Air Traffic in the European region.

    It was suggested that the current US phrase could be used.

    Hence the adoption in 2018.
    Why invent something when a perfectly good phrase already exists.
    wrote:
    It isn’t used here which is more to the point.
    I respectfully must correct your misunderstanding but it is used "here".


Advertisement