Should Voting be mandatory?

Gazzmonkey · 28-05-2019 3:52pm

Water John wrote: »

Not to derail but are the Australians right, vote or be fined. Funny nearly a quarter answered a survey on The Journal this morning saying they won't vote today. But they had time and were so inclined, to do an online poll.

Last time I voted they ignored the outcome and ran it again until they were happy with the outcome.

I'll abstain thanks

28-05-2019 4:03pm

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

Last time I voted they ignored the outcome and ran it again until they were happy with the outcome.

I'll abstain thanks

What?

When did that happen??

MartyMcFly84 · 28-05-2019 6:07pm

The Nice Treaty I imagine is being referred to

MartyMcFly84 · 28-05-2019 6:18pm

The point being that if it is important to you, then you would make the effort. It takes 10 minutes to vote, and hour if you are generous with travel times. 1 hour every two/three years? Yet people will travel to games, to the pub, to town, to shopping centres etc.

Its takes YOU 10mins to Vote it takes me 2.30 hours. As I have said the electorate is changing. Young people have grown up with technology and will embrace changes to the voting process that will make it easy for them.

The world is changing and the manual ballot box will be a thing of the past. If not we will be faced with smaller and smaller voter turn outs unless for a major change like the repeal movement.

Leroy42 · 28-05-2019 6:29pm

It takes you 1 hour and ten minutes to get to your local polling station?

Have you thought about a postal vote?

listermint · 28-05-2019 6:30pm

It should be mandatory, why

Because it would absolutely piss off the ultra right and ultra left because they would lose out .

Bigly

MartyMcFly84 · 28-05-2019 7:35pm

It takes you 1 hour and ten minutes to get to your local polling station?

Have you thought about a postal vote?

I havent gone through the extra admin, going to a garda station to make a declaration of identify. Then applying for postal vote registration, printing and posting it away. Which may be refused as I don't have a disability just work far away from where I am registered to vote. If I am accepted then I would have to then wait to receive my voting ballot and then go and post it.

It sounds like an easy process, but it a bit of a pain in the arse. So to answer your question I have thought about it but havent found the free time in the run up to an election to do the above.

cryptocurrency · 28-05-2019 7:40pm

listermint wrote: »

It should be mandatory, why

Because it would absolutely piss off the ultra right and ultra left because they would lose out .

Bigly

Bit of both and also pi$$ off the middle. Populist issues would win the day with no stopping it. Brexit party in the UK case in point.

Wanderer78 · 28-05-2019 7:45pm

I think there's something a little weird about mandatory voting, people should have the right not to be bothered

MartyMcFly84 · 28-05-2019 7:49pm

I think there's something a little weird about mandatory voting, people should have the right not to be bothered

Has a twinge of totalitarianism about it alright. The Government forcing people into an action to make a free choice is contradictory at best.

cryptocurrency · 28-05-2019 7:51pm

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

Has a twinge of totalitarianism about it alright. The Government forcing people into an action to make a free choice is contradictory at best.

So is taxation or anthing forced.

Wanderer78 · 28-05-2019 7:54pm

cryptocurrency wrote:

So is taxation or anthing forced.

Show me a country that functions well without taxation

MartyMcFly84 · 28-05-2019 7:55pm

So is taxation or anthing forced

Indeed, however taxes are paying for use of the services in the country we live in.

The choice of a representatives and leaders who are agents of the public to govern and manage those funds is a personal choice and any every citizen should have to right to do whatever they want with their vote.

cryptocurrency · 28-05-2019 7:57pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Show me a country that functions well without taxation

Taxation should be based on consumption only. And using that model meny tax havens work fine.

Taxing Income is nuts.

Donald Trump · 28-05-2019 7:57pm

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

I havent gone through the extra admin, going to a garda station to make a declaration of identify. Then applying for postal vote registration, printing and posting it away. Which may be refused as I don't have a disability just work far away from where I am registered to vote. If I am accepted then I would have to then wait to receive my voting ballot and then go and post it.

It sounds like an easy process, but it a bit of a pain in the arse. So to answer your question I have thought about it but havent found the free time in the run up to an election to do the above.

So do you then live far from where you vote? Can you not register properly where you actually live. Like I'd imagine you are supposed to!

What's to stop that happening wholesale if there was remote app voting? You could have "citizens" who never set foot out of Boston whose great grandfather was born in Ireland and register themselves at their cousins address in ballygobackward and vote from Boston on their little app. How are you going to stop that?

28-05-2019 7:59pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

It takes you 1 hour and ten minutes to get to your local polling station?

Have you thought about a postal vote?

Or they are living in a new area but want to go "home" to vote

Are yoy registered where you live Marty?

AndrewJRenko · 28-05-2019 8:01pm

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

I havent gone through the extra admin, going to a garda station to make a declaration of identify. Then applying for postal vote registration, printing and posting it away. Which may be refused as I don't have a disability just work far away from where I am registered to vote. If I am accepted then I would have to then wait to receive my voting ballot and then go and post it.

It sounds like an easy process, but it a bit of a pain in the arse. So to answer your question I have thought about it but havent found the free time in the run up to an election to do the above.

If you're registered at your home address, you will be near the voting station at some stage during the 15 hour opening hours.

How can it possibly take you 2+ hours to get to your local polling station for 10 minutes?

MartyMcFly84 · 28-05-2019 8:08pm

If you're registered at your home address, you will be near the voting station at some stage during the 15 hour opening hours.

How can it possibly take you 2+ hours to get to your local polling station for 10 minutes?

I am registered in Waterford. I work in Dublin, I leave the house between 5.30am or 7am depending on the day and am back home at 11pm .Popping around the corner for 10mins is not an option for me.

If the polling station was open on a weekend it would be much easier, or if there was an electronic method of voting.

Wanderer78 · 28-05-2019 8:10pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Taxation should be based on consumption only. And using that model meny tax havens work fine.

Taxing Income is nuts.

would hardly lead to an increase in consumption?

is it really?

listermint · 28-05-2019 8:12pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Bit of both and also pi$$ off the middle. Populist issues would win the day with no stopping it. Brexit party in the UK case in point.

Any real examples of populism winning out with majority voting and by majority let's say 80% plus being fair.

28-05-2019 8:15pm

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

I am registered in Waterford. I work in Dublin, I leave the house between 5.30am or 7am depending on the day and am back home at 11pm .Popping around the corner for 10mins is not an option for me.

If the polling station was open on a weekend it would be much easier, or if there was an electronic method of voting.

So because you have a massively insane commute yiu want weekend polling OR insecure methods?

What about those if us working (living) in Dublin but returning home at weekends?

MartyMcFly84 · 28-05-2019 8:32pm

So because you have a massively insane commute yiu want weekend polling OR insecure methods?

What about those if us working (living) in Dublin but returning home at weekends?

You have not idea if an electronic voting solution will be insecure. You are just presuming it without it would be without exploring options.

I would say the majority of people would have more free time over a weekend than during a work day to vote.

What is your suggestion to increase voter turn out, or to facilitate those of use who commute or have moved away from where we are register to vote ?

AndrewJRenko · 28-05-2019 8:32pm

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

I am registered in Waterford. I work in Dublin, I leave the house between 5.30am or 7am depending on the day and am back home at 11pm .Popping around the corner for 10mins is not an option for me.

If the polling station was open on a weekend it would be much easier, or if there was an electronic method of voting.

Be outside the polling station at 7am and you'll be on the road in five or ten minutes - the same kind of delay that you'll experience all the time due to bad weather or bad traffic.

Seriously, go read up on the issues around eVoting before you throw away our democracy for a little convenience.

AndrewJRenko · 28-05-2019 8:34pm

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

What is your suggestion to increase voter turn out, or to facilitate those of use who commute or have moved away from where we are register to vote ?

The problem isn't the ten minutes of voting every five years. The problem is what politicians do (and what other players in the system do) in the five years in between. There are much, much deeper issues to be addressed, not fiddling around with apps to save a few minutes and risk our democracy.

MartyMcFly84 · 28-05-2019 8:36pm

Seriously, go read up on the issues around eVoting before you throw away our democracy for a little convenience

Are you forgetting the long history manual electoral fraud?

There will never be a perfect method. But I am willing to bet technology will be improving. However sticking to a system that is obviously not working is no solution at all , rather sticking heads in the sand.

Tell me how · 28-05-2019 8:45pm

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

Are you forgetting the long history manual electoral fraud?

There will never be a perfect method. But I am willing to bet technology will be improving. However sticking to a system that is obviously not working is no solution at all , rather sticking heads in the sand.

Have I missed the evidence of this?

AndrewJRenko · 28-05-2019 8:49pm

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

Are you forgetting the long history manual electoral fraud?

There will never be a perfect method. But I am willing to bet technology will be improving. However sticking to a system that is obviously not working is no solution at all , rather sticking heads in the sand.

What electoral fraud have we had in Ireland? What is not working about the current system?

Your 'sticking heads in the sand' reminds me of Bertie's 'oul peann luidhe' speech in the Dail. It cost us €60m.

28-05-2019 9:01pm

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

You have not idea if an electronic voting solution will be insecure. You are just presuming it without it would be without exploring options.

I would say the majority of people would have more free time over a weekend than during a work day to vote.

What is your suggestion to increase voter turn out, or to facilitate those of use who commute or have moved away from where we are register to vote ?

I work in IT, I can see several ways through social engineering alone.

McGiver · 28-05-2019 11:07pm

Deleted User wrote:

So because you have a massively insane commute yiu want weekend polling OR insecure methods?

Weekend polling is common in continental Europe. Should be done in Ireland too. The best system is Friday (until late 10pm) + Saturday (until 12pm). No one can excuse they can't make it then.

Leroy42 · 28-05-2019 11:26pm

Of course they can. The real issue is not the time involved, they don't care enough.

What should worry everyone is why they don't care.

What should worry non voters is that nobody cares about them either.

4068ac1elhodqr · 29-05-2019 1:32am

Wonder if voting and actual politics is somewhat underminded, when secretive groups get a random bunch of people together for a chit-chat, and likely influence future state/global policy.
e.g. The B'berg group meets this week in Switzerland, three from Ireland and nearly a dozen from uk. But looking at list in the tabloids, they're all slightly left-leaning.

AndrewJRenko · 29-05-2019 7:33am

Jaylee Easy Foreigner wrote: »

Wonder if voting and actual politics is somewhat underminded, when secretive groups get a random bunch of people together for a chit-chat, and likely influence future state/global policy.
e.g. The B'berg group meets this week in Switzerland, three from Ireland and nearly a dozen from uk. But looking at list in the tabloids, they're all slightly left-leaning.

Bilderbergers are left leaning? Are you Trump or Farage?

You have a point about why some people are getting disillusioned with politics, but left leaning?

Leroy42 · 29-05-2019 8:22am

A West Cork candidate has been elected by the skin of her teeth - taking the final seat in her constituency by a single vote after two recounts.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/elections-2019/one-vote-every-vote-counts-cork-election-candidate-pips-rival-by-skin-of-her-teeth-38156668.html

Votes don't matter apparently.

L1011 · 29-05-2019 8:37am

Leroy42 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/elections-2019/one-vote-every-vote-counts-cork-election-candidate-pips-rival-by-skin-of-her-teeth-38156668.html

Votes don't matter apparently.

Also one seat in Wicklow this time. One seat in Galway was settled using FPV rules due to equal numbers on final count

Manach · 29-05-2019 9:04am

No, for the following reasons .
1 A non vote is a form of protest as well that indicates a disengagement with the process, hence an indication that would be hidden by forced voting.
2 Ill or physically impaired people would face hurdles to avoid any fines as they could be unable to vote.

Leroy42 · 29-05-2019 9:11am

Manach wrote: »

No, for the following reasons .
1 A non vote is a form of protest as well that indicates a disengagement with the process, hence an indication that would be hidden by forced voting.
2 Ill or physically impaired people would face hurdles to avoid any fines as they could be unable to vote.

Point 1 doesn't stand up. Unless there is a massive no turn out then we have seen over many elections that non voters are simply ignored on the basis that they either don't care or are happy enough to let others decide.

The turnout for the presidential election was 43.87%, with 1,492,338 casting a vote, resulting in 1,473,900 valid votes. The Irish electorate comprises of 3,229,672 people.

https://www.thejournal.ie/low-turnout-presidential-election-4309871-Oct2018/

Have you seen any marked processes to deal with this? Has the presidency been called into question because of lack of engagement? No, the vote is counted based on the people that turn up, the rest are simply ignored. (BTW I am not saying this is correct, just that it is the way it is).

Point 2 - within mandatory voting you have many areas that people can opt out. People sent abroad for work, sick, needing to care for others. It is the same as jury service. The default should be that you must go, unless you have a valid excuse.

nc6000 · 29-05-2019 9:14am

Deleted User wrote: »

I don’t vote and wouldn’t appreciate been forced to. If there was a candidate that I thought would make a difference, I would vote for them. But all I ever see is just more of the same.

I didn't bother voting this time out which is the first time I've failed to vote in any election.

I've never voted FF and won't even consider them after the mess Ahern & Cowen left us in. FG won't be getting my vote because of their unbelievably careless handling of the housing crisis and other issues. Labour support has fallen off a cliff since their carry on after entering Government in 2011 so I won't vote for them and I also won't vote SF.

I basically worked backwards on the lists of candidates available to me in both the local and euro elections and excluded those who I wouldn't vote for and it turned out there was nobody left.

Leroy42 · 29-05-2019 9:17am

nc6000 wrote: »

I didn't bother voting this time out which is the first time I've failed to vote in any election.

I've never voted FF and won't even consider them after the mess Ahern & Cowen left us in. FG won't be getting my vote because of their unbelievably careless handling of the housing crisis and other issues. Labour support has fallen off a cliff since their carry on after entering Government in 2011 so I won't vote for them and I also won't vote SF.

I basically worked backwards on the lists of candidates available to me in both the local and euro elections and excluded those who I wouldn't vote for and it turned out there was nobody left.

I find it hard to believe that not one of the people standing could get your vote. Even a vote for an independent would register that you are not happy with the current path of the parties. Maybe giving a vote to a new standing independent, if only to give them encouragement that the political process can work.

osarusan · 29-05-2019 9:21am

Any mandatory system would need a 'none of the above' option for sure.

Is there any evidence to suggest that mandatory voting leads to a more informed or engaged electorate in the long run?

Or does it just lead to a load of uninformed and unengaged people casting a vote, whereas otherwise they wouldn't vote at all?

L1011 · 29-05-2019 9:32am

Leroy42 wrote: »

Point 1 doesn't stand up. Unless there is a massive no turn out then we have seen over many elections that non voters are simply ignored on the basis that they either don't care or are happy enough to let others decide.

https://www.thejournal.ie/low-turnout-presidential-election-4309871-Oct2018/

Have you seen any marked processes to deal with this? Has the presidency been called into question because of lack of engagement? No, the vote is counted based on the people that turn up, the rest are simply ignored. (BTW I am not saying this is correct, just that it is the way it is).

Point 2 - within mandatory voting you have many areas that people can opt out. People sent abroad for work, sick, needing to care for others. It is the same as jury service. The default should be that you must go, unless you have a valid excuse.

Turnout is understated due to how many people are on the register multiple times. Quite significantly in areas with larger student populations and more rental properties.

I re-registered in 2015, I'm still on the register twice in the same town.

29-05-2019 9:36am

Rather than this mandatory nonsense, how about making it easier to check the register and re-registering/moving.

The search functionality is terrible on the sites and each area seems to have it's own, why is it not a national check?

Leroy42 · 29-05-2019 9:36am

L1011 wrote: »

Turnout is understated due to how many people are on the register multiple times. Quite significantly in areas with larger student populations and more rental properties.

I re-registered in 2015, I'm still on the register twice in the same town.

That is entirely down to you. A lot of the system is down to trust. Because people do not want to hand over too many details (such as PPS number which would eliminate double registrations) then the state relies on people to register in the place they live at the time and unregister in places they no longer require a vote.

L1011 · 29-05-2019 9:41am

Leroy42 wrote: »

That is entirely down to you. A lot of the system is down to trust. Because people do not want to hand over too many details (such as PPS number which would eliminate double registrations) then the state relies on people to register in the place they live at the time and unregister in places they no longer require a vote.

No, its down to the council as the re-registration includes the unregistration.

Its the same sodding council!

29-05-2019 9:46am

Leroy42 wrote: »

That is entirely down to you. A lot of the system is down to trust. Because people do not want to hand over too many details (such as PPS number which would eliminate double registrations) then the state relies on people to register in the place they live at the time and unregister in places they no longer require a vote.

Well the register is available to 3rd parties, for commercial reasons, so yeah I'm not handing over more than I have to.
Still available to certain parties, even with the opt out.

Tell me how · 29-05-2019 9:58am

L1011 wrote: »

No, its down to the council as the re-registration includes the unregistration.

Its the same sodding council!

Why did you re-register if you were still on the system in that council?

L1011 · 29-05-2019 10:03am

Tell me how wrote: »

Why did you re-register if you were still on the system in that council?

Have you ever seen the form? Changing address *is* re-registering. The process is that the council either remove your old entry or inform the other council that holds it

They didn't

Absolutely and utterly their problem.

4068ac1elhodqr · 29-05-2019 2:31pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Bilderbergers are left leaning? Are you Trump or Farage?

You have a point about why some people are getting disillusioned with politics, but left leaning?

Funny enough Trump isn't attending, and Farage wasn't invited (not to mention the equivalents from nations such as Italy, France and so on), who each all outperformed their rivals in the recent EEs.

Perhaps left is slightly off, but not by far - if you look at the list of attendees (publicly available) there is a whiff of global banking elitists with funny sounding surnames.

From memory Trump actually stated he was anti-globalisation, more protectionist and nationally focused like is comparables.

Anyhow, any guesses what the powerful (mostly non-elected) few will decide policy wise for the coming year?

There is no minuites recorded at the secret gatherings, so guesswork is all there is to go on.

Chips Lovell · 29-05-2019 2:47pm

Mod Note

Jaylee Easy Foreigner wrote: »

.... there is a whiff of global banking elitists with funny sounding surnames.

Put down the dog whistle please. We'll have none of that here.

MartyMcFly84 · 29-05-2019 4:16pm

Have I missed the evidence of this?

It's fairly well evidenced with declining voter turn out trends, and the existing process not changing in line with the changing lifestyles and pace of modern Ireland.

Tell me how · 29-05-2019 4:30pm

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

It's fairly well evidenced with declining voter turn out trends, and the existing process not changing in line with the changing lifestyles and pace of modern Ireland.

I'm not sure if there is a direct link between the mode of voting and the actual turn out. I'd be more inclined to think that it is to do with some form of apathy or a reduction in civic responsibility.

I would still argue that the solution is not to implement systems which lack transparency just so people who aren't engaged can spend 5 seconds every 5 years paying attention to politics.

Should Voting be mandatory?

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