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Is jumping a locked front garden gate considered tresspassing?

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  • 02-08-2020 10:49am
    #1
    Irish_peppa
    Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭


    Im just curious about this, is there a difference between walking through an open front gate up to someones front door and delivering leaflets or say a door to door salesman and actually getting over a (Locked) gate to get to the front door. Is one tresspassing and the other not? In both cases you are entering someones private property. Or is there leeway when it comes to people delivering leaflets and selling? I locked my front gate when I went away for a long weekend yet found a clothing collection leaflet and a fast food leaflet in the letterbox. So i can only assume these people jumped the gate to get in. I was just surprised someone would go to the effort, they also could of hurt themselves if they fell or injured themselves on the railing decorative spikes:eek: I would be hopeful if that happened I wouldnt be liable if they fell on/into my property.:o


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    #2
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    Irish_peppa wrote: »
    Im just curious about this, is there a difference between walking through an open front gate up to someones front door and delivering leaflets or say a door to door salesman and actually getting over a (Locked) gate to get to the front door. Is one tresspassing and the other not? In both cases you are entering someones private property. Or is there leeway when it comes to people delivering leaflets and selling? I locked my front gate when I went away for a long weekend yet found a clothing collection leaflet and a fast food leaflet in the letterbox. So i can only assume these people jumped the gate to get in. I was just surprised someone would go to the effort, they also could of hurt themselves if they fell or injured themselves on the railing decorative spikes:eek: I would be hopeful if that happened I wouldnt be liable if they fell on/into my property.:o
    As far as i know with no fence or gate there is an implied right to enter. The locked gate i would imagine removes the implied right but i do not know.


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    #3
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,113 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If you have a letterbox on your front door, that's an implied invitation to people to approach the front door for the purpose of putting letters, etc, in it; if you don't want people entering your property to deliver post then put a mailbox at the perimeter of the property.

    You could argue, I suppose, that if the garden gate is locked (as opposed to just closed) that contradicts the implied invitation, and anyone coming onto the property in order to put stuff in the letterbox is trespassing.


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    #4
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    It has to be understood that trespass is both a civil (tort) and criminal offence.

    So starting with the tort offence of trespass, simply entering a persons property without express or implied consent is enough to be actionable. A locked gate that requires to be jumped is enough to reasonably state that for an unsolicited visitor no consent is there and they are guilty of the civil offence the minute they step foot on the land. If the gate was open, then it’s more grey but the minute that an implied consent is removed (I.e owner saying get off my land) then they are trespassing. If there is a clearly visible sign at the entrance saying no salesmen or leaflet droppers etc then that is enough for trespass to exist. The issue then is even if a person is guilty of a tort of trespass what restitution is available. While the civil offence doesn’t require damages to be actionable, in reality if you prove it but no damages exist then you get a nominal amount or nothing. For it to be worthwhile there has to be something like loss of market value Etc.

    The other trespass offence is a criminal one outlined in a 1994 act. The first part is the same as the civil one ie. entry onto land without permission but the second part requires it to cause or likely to cause fear in someone. So if a stranger jumps over a gate and starts lurking around trying to evade being seen, this is likely to cause fear so criminal offence. If we take your salesman example if they jump over a gate without consent, part 1 is fulfilled but if they go straight to the front door knock and politely say their business then it’s not likely to cause fear so not a criminal offence. However if they are told to leave but refuse and the owner begins to feel intimidated then that would satisfy the fear requirement so criminally liable. I hope that explains the different offences and requirements for each.


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    #5
    Irish_peppa
    Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭Irish_peppa


    Thanks kelly perri and joe, very interesting indeed and the way the letterbox gives implied invitation is very new to me! Hmmm very interesting indeed !:)
    My question is fully answered :cool: Thanks


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    #6
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    You could try a no entry sign on the gate. I am not sure what rights if any it would give. A friend of mine was harrassed by sellers even though he had a no entry sign. he emailed them stating he was removing any implied right to enter that if they did he would call the gardai. But they had been abusive so were on the verge of intimidating and so possibly criminal as a poster pointed out above.They never came back though


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    #7
    Irish_peppa
    Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭Irish_peppa


    Olive Worried Gunpoint wrote: »
    You could try a no entry sign on the gate. I am not sure what rights if any it would give. A friend of mine was harrassed by sellers even though he had a no entry sign. he emailed them stating he was removing any implied right to enter that if they did he would call the gardai. But they had been abusive so were on the verge of intimidating and so possibly criminal as a poster pointed out above.They never came back though

    Yes true playing devils advocate imagine you owed debt collectors money and locked your gate and with a sign saying NO ENTRY / PRIVATE PROPERTY. You would in theory be safe from Debt collectors and tv licence inspectors from actually entering your property. So would be in effect shielded from anyone getting near your house. :pac::D
    The only thing they could do would camp up on the street path and wait for you to come out;)


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    #8
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,113 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Irish_peppa wrote: »
    Yes true playing devils advocate imagine you owed debt collectors money and locked your gate and with a sign saying NO ENTRY / PRIVATE PROPERTY. You would in theory be safe from Debt collectors and tv licence inspectors from actually entering your property. So would be in effect shielded from anyone getting near your house. :pac::D
    The only thing they could do would camp up on the street path and wait for you to come out;)
    TV licence inspectors have a right of entry, and entering in the exercise of that right would not be trespassing. So the "no entry" sign would not affect their activities.

    Debt collectors have no such right, except when serving court papers, so (in theory) a "keep out - no entry" sign should stop them constantly doorstepping you. Won't stop them ringing you up, though.


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    #9
    Irish_peppa
    Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭Irish_peppa


    Nice addition Peregrinus your knowledge of this is top notch. Now to change my phone number and print up some signs:cool::p


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    #10
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,113 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Irish_peppa wrote: »
    Nice addition Peregrinus your knowledge of this is top notch. Now to change my phone number and print up some signs:cool::p
    Sadly, this will just accelerate the move to the next stage, which is serving court papers on you. :(


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    #11
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Sadly, this will just accelerate the move to the next stage, which is serving court papers on you. :(
    If they hurt themselves getting over the spikedfence could the OP be sued? I have seen burgulars sue when being hurt on a fence. Isn't there an obligation not to have spikes or anything dangerous beside the roadway?

    Don't gardai have to leave if told? Do TV licence inspectors have to leave if told?


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    #12
    Irish_peppa
    Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭Irish_peppa


    Olive Worried Gunpoint wrote: »
    If they hurt themselves getting over the spikedfence could the OP be sued? I have seen burgulars sue when being hurt on a fence. Isn't there an obligation not to have spikes or anything dangerous beside the roadway?

    Don't gardai have to leave if told? Do TV licence inspectors have to leave if told?

    I know in the 80s people used to have broken up glass bottle shards cemented onto their walls tops and even barbed wire. When you think about it lol:eek:
    All that stuff has been banned years BUT decorative spikes are still legal but I guess you could if you were unlucky take your eye out with one or impale your body on them slightly they would certainly 100 percent injure you thats for sure. I would tend to think if the gate was locked and the tresspasser mounted the railing and in some way slipped and came down on the spikes (legal decorative ones) they would i am certain still puncture a soft abdomen. I guess his defence would be "i was just asking if the house holder wanted their gutters cleaned not doing anything illegal" and then i got impaled on his railings Judge :p


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    #13
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    Irish_peppa wrote: »
    I know in the 80s people used to have broken up glass bottle shards cemented onto their walls tops and even barbed wire. When you think about it lol:eek:
    All that stuff has been banned years BUT decorative spikes are still legal but I guess you could if you were unlucky take your eye out with one or impale your body on them slightly they would certainly 100 percent injure you thats for sure. I would tend to think if the gate was locked and the tresspasser mounted the railing and in some way slipped and came down on the spikes (legal decorative ones) they would i am certain still puncture a soft abdomen. I guess his defence would be "i was just asking if the house holder wanted their gutters cleaned not doing anything illegal" and then i got impaled on his railings Judge :p
    People sued after being hurt with glass bottle shards. Spikes for decoration may be legal but there may be an issue having them at the roadside, I don't know. Children could try to climb over and fall on them


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    #14
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,113 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Olive Worried Gunpoint wrote: »
    . . . . I have seen burgulars sue when being hurt on a fence . . .
    No offence, but I'm not entirely convinced that you have seen that. This is one of these "facts" that everybody knows/remembers/has heard of, but that they find it very hard to flesh out with any detail or corroborative evidence.

    There have been plenty of actions brought on behalf of children injured by glass-topped walls, etc. But can you recall any details of the cases you have seen where burglars sued in these circumstances like names, dates, places and such, that would enable us to check the reliability of your recollections?


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    #15
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    No offence, but I'm not entirely convinced that you have seen that. This is one of these "facts" that everybody knows/remembers/has heard of, but that they find it very hard to flesh out with any detail or corroborative evidence.

    There have been plenty of actions brought on behalf of children injured by glass-topped walls, etc. But can you recall any details of the cases you have seen where burglars sued in these circumstances like names, dates, places and such, that would enable us to check the reliability of your recollections?
    Ok, I meant I have seen it online i.e read about it. I think it was in the UK. Carpet grippers I think, maybe https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9598 august 5 post by philj


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    #16
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,113 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Olive Worried Gunpoint wrote: »
    Ok, I meant I have seen it online i.e read about it. I think it was in the UK. Carpet grippers I think, maybe https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9598 august 5 post by philj
    Mmm. No mention there of any actual burglars actually suing (still less of them actually winning).

    All we have is a bloke calling himself Will*Remain*Strong saying that he thinks that you could get sued by a burglar, but that he might be wrong.

    And then he quotes a bloke calling himself philj who says that he thinks there was an item on the news about somebody not being allowed to erect barbed wire on top of his fence. Philj says the purpose of erecting the barbed wire was to deter burglars, but he doesn't suggest that the reason the guy wasn't allowed to do it was because the burglars might sue, or that the restriction was motivated by any concern at all for the welfare of burglars.

    You can see this one growing in the telling right in front of you. From philj recollecting a TV news item about a guy who wanted to put up barbed wire to deter burglars but wasn't allowed to for unstated reasons, we can trace the story to your (I don't doubt, entirely honest) recollection of having seen cases of burglars suing for being hurt on a fence.


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