Freemasons: Evil secret society or misunderstood nice guys...

DeVore · 24-11-2002 6:05pm #1

Now, I've played one too many Call of Cthulhu games for my own good so I woud view the Freemasons with great suspicion.
(I'm talking about the real Freemasons here, not the Boards.ie troll).

Recently however, a good friend of mine has told me (mentioned it in passing conversation) that he's a Freemason. He has even used Boards.ie before.

This really shocked me.

I mean, this guys a good friend, smart, very very honest (painfully so at times), charitable (we got to know each other through some charity work).
He not religious, doesnt go to mass but does profess a belief in God (which is apparently sufficent, I always thought you had to be Protestant).

Now, I kinda wigged out when he told me I was all like "YOU'RE WHAT??!"

We sat and talked about it for about an hour or more, me having eyes like saucers while he explained about being a Freemason and what it means. He was very open and honest about it and I , frankly, was kinda rude. I kept asking questions like "So do you really have a secret handshake?Wow. Really?"

"Really, really???!"

Interspersed with "Do you get to talk to the aliens?!" which drew pointed stares of mock-annoyance.

So I went into DeV-Mode and asked him a ton of questions trying to nail the inconsistancy of what *I* understood Freemasons to be and what *he* was claiming it to be.

Now, understand that I've never known this guy to lie, about anything. So this doesnt fit with what I understood to be a secret society and all sorts of nefarious dodgy dealings.
However I'm losing the argument with him as I realise I actually have nothing solid to back up my contention that they arent nice guys.

Since then I've discovered that my uncle was one and that a very good friend of the family was one too (they are both dead).

I pressed my friend on the secrecy thing, like why dont you tell people you are a Freemason and his response floored me. He said: "Would you tell your friends if they reacted the way you just did?"

So I sat back and thought "Jesus, yeah, I've been really unsubtle and pretty insulting to someone I really get on with and I havent a shred of evidence apart from dodgy hearsay and my own belief that there has to be SOMETHING dodgy about them..."

Now I'm faced with a stark slap in the face: Either I'm wrong about them or he is mistaken or lying.
I dont think he's mistaken as he's been a Freemason for 3 years apparently and I doubt he's lying...
I've known him for about 8 years so I've known him before and after he's joined. I honestly cant say he's changed much. No more then you'd expect in someone growing into middle age.

So, here's my question: Anyone out there related to or know or *IS* a Freemason? Anyone got any hard evidence showing or disproving misdoing in Ireland or abroad? Am I a conspiracy nut or is there something dodgy afoot?
Anyone ever had dealings with them?

Sorry Amp, I know you think I'm obsessed but I've got this connundrum to solve now. DeVore could be wrong, and that would NEVER do

DeV.

ps: Could the Boards.ie Freemasons (or anyone else) PLEASE not troll this thread as I want to stay on topic.

pps: I've unbanned the word Freemasons for the duration of this discussion. Trolling IRA noob's will recommence afterwards.

Shinji · 24-11-2002 6:19pm

An uncle of mine is a Freemason - only found this out quite recently. He's technically a Catholic although not a practising one - again he just professes a general belief in God. Some masonic lodges don't even particularly do that.

I think that in general, Freemasonry is fairly misunderstood - it's more like a Credit Union concept but with goodwill rather than money, than a sekrit society taking over the world.

That said, in sectarian areas (Scotland in particular) it can be a pretty unpleasant thing because it does often get divided down religious lines and you get people being turned down for jobs and so on because of masonic connections, which are really only a thin layer over sectarianism. The masonic lodges in some parts of Scotland have a lot in common with Orange lodges in the North.

It's also worth noting that even if 99% of the people in a secretive organisation are good people, there's always a chance that people are involved for the wrong reasons - namely personal gain. There's a fairly long and unpleasant history in the British establishment of people with masonic connections abusing them for power gains.

And then of course there's those Boards.ie Freemasons. A more wretched hive of scum and villany....

Greenbean · 24-11-2002 8:48pm

I think Shinji has hit the nail on the head. Simply a group of people with similar interests, sharing goodwill when one-another might need it. Like extended friendship. Like any society there is potential for abuse. Even if there were to be any special agenda at the top, its pretty much of no consequence to 99% of the members. If it helps people live good lives then I for one can't be against it.

DeVore · 24-11-2002 9:04pm

Ok, GB and shinji. Fair points.

Also, lets keep the Boards.ie Freemason Troll/Joke out of this except where it may be illustrative (ie: if its secret people will PRESUME nefarious things are going on).

I'm seriously interested in this topic now

DeV.

BuffyBot · 24-11-2002 11:33pm

I'm sure the Freemasons are all very well.

I think it is the whole element of mysteriousness that goes on that annoys people. The Freemason's themselves don't seem to go out of their way to dispel that either. People who are excluded from anything will always be negative about it...

DeVore · 25-11-2002 3:07am

btw some people have contacted me via PM about this. Thats cool, if you dont want to post here, please feel free to engage in 1-1 discreet conversation.

DeV.

amp · 25-11-2002 10:08am

Originally posted by DeVore

Sorry Amp, I know you think I'm obsessed but I've got this connundrum to solve now. DeVore could be wrong, and that would NEVER do

Not at all, it's a fascinating topic and more than appropriate for Humanities.

Trolling will not be tolerated.

Slydice · 25-11-2002 10:19am

hold on, your saying the freemason's are like some sortof protestant interest group (like the uvf) ? thats ****ed up right there!

DMC · 25-11-2002 10:38am

Its peoples perceived attitude to freemasons that hangs them out to dry. As Buffybot says, its the mysterious-ness of their organisation that makes them hated or generally viewed as "a bad thing".

I hear exactly what you said, DeV, you did have a prejudged opinion of the freemasons, who you thought they are and what you thought they do, and now that you have spoken to one, you have conflicting thoughts. I *did* share those opinions, exactly the same as you, but when I read your post, I realise that I don't know any freemasons, never met one, dunno what they do. Have I prejudged this clique wrongly? Your opinions are in a state of flux. Before now, you have been dead against them, down with that sort of thing. Now you have met someone who is a freemason, you want to still believe what you thought you knew before, but realise that it doesn't hold much water. Its not yours or mine or anyone's fault; anything that we don't know, are not part of or fully understand is always under suspicion as a whole in society.

As Toyah once sang, "It's a mystery to me......."

Borzoi · 25-11-2002 10:40am

Originally posted by Shinji

I think that in general, Freemasonry is fairly misunderstood - it's more like a Credit Union concept but with goodwill rather than money, than a sekrit society taking over the world.

That said, in sectarian areas (Scotland in particular) it can be a pretty unpleasant thing because it does often get divided down religious lines and you get people being turned down for jobs and so on because of masonic connections, which are really only a thin layer over sectarianism. The masonic lodges in some parts of Scotland have a lot in common with Orange lodges in the North.

So what is the point of Freemasonry? I understand rugby and golf clubs, they exist because of the sport, and have a social and business aspect secondly. What, is the reason for the existance of the masons?

Of course, like most activities in life, if you label anything secret, you send people up the wall with suspicion - as has been seen on this boards:rolleyes:

Shinji · 25-11-2002 11:08am

So what is the point of Freemasonry? I understand rugby and golf clubs, they exist because of the sport, and have a social and business aspect secondly. What, is the reason for the existance of the masons?

Originally masonic lodges existed for dual purpose - a kind of guild for certain types of craftsmen, and a religious "club" of sorts. I'm really not sure what the stated purpose of it is now - a kind of gentlemans club, I suppose.

DeVore · 25-11-2002 11:13am

DMC.... Nail. Head. *bonk*.

I thought they were very odd and not very nice. But I never really knew anything about them, I just filed them in the "dont need to know" box. Now I've been forced to re-evaluate and they actually seem (on the surface) to be the good guys.
I love challenging my perception of hte world and I actually love being wrong (occasionally

) because the world changes slightly.

Borzoi from what I've seen they are a charitable organisation. Primarily Masons orphans and widows but in recent years it seems they have been building hospitals.

Slydice, I never linked them to terrorism or anything like that. I know quite a bit about that from family history. I just thought they were generally not well regarded and now a lot of people I know are telling me they are a bit strange but basically good.

DeV.

Typedef · 25-11-2002 12:48pm

I think Shinji has hit the nail on the head. Simply a group of people with similar interests, sharing goodwill when one-another might need it. Like extended friendship

Which is all very well and good when you are immersed in a sea of Catholicism, but is a whole different kettle of fish, where sectarianism makes a difference.

Take the Orange Order for example, in the Republic, such a group would be almost totally irrelevant, being vastly outnumbered by the traditional Catholic and growing non-practicing or atheist/agnostics. In the North of Ireland where ethnicity is expressed via Relgious divisions and institution like the Orange Order are malovalent, divisive things and lead to further ethnic strife.

I say this because I have actually read the fouding principals of the Orange Order and those founding principals are a supplicant for white supremicism, except with Relgion and Loyality to the Crown, being supplanted.

So yes, such secret institutions may seem, sublime and or benign, but if you put such entities into a situation where genuine sectarian division exists, then such institutions are simply a catalyst for entrencing sectarianism.

It's a little like Ronseal quick action varnish, with institutions like the Orange Order or Masons*, it does exactly what is says on the tin.

*If an entity or institution is based on Religion, to influence social life outside of it's relgious remit, it is a catalyst for Religious aggrivation.
http://www.serve.com/pfc/orders/loyal.html

Qualifications of an Orangeman
"An Orangeman should have a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly Father; a humble and steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, believing in Him as the only Mediator between God and man. He should cultivate truth and justice, brotherly kindness and charity, devotion and piety, concord and unity, and obedience to the laws; his deportment should be gentle and compassionate, kind and courteous; he should seek a society of the virtuous, and avoid that of the evil; he should honour and diligently study the Holy Scriptures, and make them the rule of his faith and practice; he should love, uphold, and defend the Protestant religion, and sincerely desire and endeavour to propagate its doctrines and precepts; he should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome, and scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act of ceremony of Popish worship; he should by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy of that Church, its encroachments, and the extension of its power, ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren; he should remember to keep holy the Sabbath day, and attend the public worship of God, and diligently train up his offspring, and all under his control, in the fear of God, and in the Protestant faith; he should never take the name of God in vain, but abstain from all cursing and profane language, and use every opportunity of discouraging these, and all other sinful practices, in others; his conduct should be guided by wisdom and prudence, and marked by honesty, temperance, and sobriety; the glory of God and the welfare of man, the honour of his Sovereign, and the good of his country, should be the motive of his actions."
<snip>
1886 The Orange Order mobilises in opposition to Gladstone's Home Rule Bill with parades throughout the North. In a letter Randolf Churchill incites Orangemen and Unionists to violence with the call "Ulster will fight (Home Rule), Ulster will be right." Rioting follows the defeat of the Bill in June and 12 July Orange parades lead predictably to disturbances that are "probably the worst outbreak of violence that century". By mid September some 50 people had lost their lives and thousands had been driven from their workplaces and homes (Curtis, 1995, p.142 ).

The growing political role of the Orange Order in the 1880s in co-ordinating the anti-Home Rule campaign had important implications for that most public manifestation of Orangeism, i.e. the parade. The middle classes and the gentry flocked back to the Loyal Orders having deserted them in the early decades of the century as disreputable "lawless banditti". Institutional links with the emerging Ulster Unionist Party were developed and the Orders became more centralised and focused political machines. Mass mobilisations were co-ordinated in pursuit of a clear goal ; the defeat of Home Rule which the Orders claimed equaled "Rome Rule". Annual skirmishes on the highways and byways of Ulster, though they still occurred, were no longer seen as appropriate to an organisation which had regained its respectability.

DadaKopf · 25-11-2002 1:15pm

The thing that really gets people about the Freemasons, and Opus Dei, is that, well, if they're just a mutually benificent gentlemen's club, then why are they so secretive? People will naturally assume they have something to hide, whether they do or not.

If Freemasons keep their membership a secret because they fear a reaction like DeV's, wouldn't it be best to be open about it and promote understanding instead of suspicion? Unless they have something to hide. That said, there's now a publically avaliable Freemasons magazine and they've been trying to salvage their image.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with people helping each other out but where does it end? It's been the case frequently that judges in Britain have been lenient on members' court sentences etc. The Freemasons are based on ideas of Christian charity but really, that's not the way it's worked out.

Typedef · 25-11-2002 1:25pm

Bloody right, such entities are precieved to be an old boys club, that promotes the old adage that it's not what you know, but who you know that gets you ahead in this life.

To be honest, I can actually find evidence that proves the Orange Order was setup up to operate like that, in favour of Orangism and Unionism and Protestantism and actual economic exclusion of those who do not ascribe to Relgion (x). Hence Relgious sectarianism. Oh and excuse me, relgiously sectarian old boys clubs have a bad reputation, well, this is me loosing sleep for my bigotry.

WhiteWashMan · 25-11-2002 1:32pm

you should do a little digging intot he knights templar while your at it....

Samba · 25-11-2002 1:40pm

I honestly have no idea.

But if you were interested Dev i have a ton of books on them dating from the 1920's-70's ish.

Although i never read any of them the covers always envoked scandals that went on etc. but you know what they say about books, Dont judge etc etc.

Pm me dev if you want any of these books, i dont want to be seen as pimping books here, but if you are really interested I am sure i could give you a lend of them as you will find many of them are out of print.

I think it may have been their beliefs which shocked the nations when some of their secrets were revealed(pure speculation from book covers

)

Gordon · 25-11-2002 1:44pm

Originally posted by DadaKopf
That said, there's now a publically avaliable Freemasons magazine and they've been trying to salvage their image.

http://www.freemasonrytoday.co.uk/
interesting

plastic membrane · 25-11-2002 2:16pm

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
you should do a little digging intot he knights templar while your at it....

Yeah, those lads seem a bit iffy..

DeVore · 25-11-2002 2:33pm

Ah *JESUS* Typedef.....

WTF has the Orange Order got to do with this thread?? They both use the word LODGE is about all I can find.

Could we keep Opus Dei, the Orange Order, the Legion of Mary, Youth Defence and the Knights of Columbanus out of this please?

They are religious nut jobs or political animals and from what I've learned of FM's they are (or claim to be) apolitical and require only a stated belief in some god. I'm reading like an animal on this topic at the moment as the next time I meet my mate (Thursday) I want a well informed fact-based discussion with him.

Please keep unsupported rhetoric out of this. I've you've nothing useful to contribute then please dont fall in love with the sound of your own keyboard. Facts or **** off I guess

I've found this which is interesting
FM's in Ireland:
www.irish-freemasons.org

DeV.

DapperGent · 25-11-2002 2:33pm

Well David Icke seems to have a problem with them so that must mean there alright. That David Icke is crazy. Just like a goalkeeper.

DeVore · 25-11-2002 2:54pm

Ah David Icke is a reknowned fvckwit who *actually* thinks that giant 12 foot lizards rule the earth in secret (I'm NOT making this up btw... I'm just not that imaginative!)

So, back on topic again.....

DeV.

DapperGent · 25-11-2002 3:32pm

Yeah and George Bush Sr is one apparently and the perpetuation of their hegemony over the world involves ritual child abuse. For some reason. Ah David Icke. Comedy gold.

Right...um...back on topic.

The father of a bloke I knew in college was a freemason and the way he described it was as a kind of club where they just hung around and chatted, did charity work and agreed to look after the widows and orphans of members. He expected to become a member but saw it more as a bit of a laugh than anything noteworthy.

My only other experience of the freemasons involved a case of severe bullying and harrassement against a freemason within his work place due to his membership of the masons.

An unpleasant business as far as my knowledge goes and certainly unmerited.

Typedef · 25-11-2002 3:40pm

Of course deal with facts Dev. All I was picking up on was what Shinji said.

I think that in general, Freemasonry is fairly misunderstood - it's more like a Credit Union concept but with goodwill rather than money, than a sekrit society taking over the world.

That said, in sectarian areas (Scotland in particular) it can be a pretty unpleasant thing because it does often get divided down religious lines and you get people being turned down for jobs and so on because of masonic connections, which are really only a thin layer over sectarianism.

sceptre · 25-11-2002 4:13pm

Originally posted by DadaKopf
If Freemasons keep their membership a secret because they fear a reaction like DeV's, wouldn't it be best to be open about it and promote understanding instead of suspicion?

Yes it would. I've been told that one of the freemason lodges in Cork actually runs a coffee morning once a week where pretty much anyone can come in and wander around. I'll see if I can find out details (no, I'm not a freemason btw)

I'll make some proper input later.

DeVore · 25-11-2002 5:37pm

I asked my mate if the public could ever go into his lodge. According to him the public is welcome 5 days a week, 9-5 and they have a Museum...

He also says he can bring me in for a drink in the evening (ok, now I'm officially weirded-out but I opened this can of worms, I cant really cry Uncle now!)

DeV.

DMC · 25-11-2002 6:33pm

Originally posted by DeVore
He also says he can bring me in for a drink in the evening (ok, now I'm officially weirded-out but I opened this can of worms, I cant really cry Uncle now!)

He's probably already in there!

DeVore · 25-11-2002 7:15pm

He was!! My Uncle was a Freemason apparently (didnt I mention that in my first post?) but was kicked out for running away with some other wan! (he was my Uncle by marraige).
So I can at least attest that they kick people out for not being nice. I never knew that uncle though and I only found out after talking to my father about this in the last few days....

DeV.

The Gopher · 25-11-2002 7:32pm

I tried joining once but was refused membership.Why wont those jerks let me into their crappy club for jerks?:D
Devore-dont you know that boards.ie has a freemasons board?Dustaz is one of the moderators(his membership of a secret society may explain why he thinks he owns the boards and acts like an all round wanker but anyway).It is one of those forums you can only join if invited by the mod.(or if you save the life of a masonic boarder .Or if you are the son of one:D )
Anyway,Im a boards.ie Comebanous(or whatever it is).:)

DeVore · 25-11-2002 7:44pm

Gopher. I'm not snipping your post because it has one thing in it I wanted to respond to. Otherwise it would be gone....

Apparently you only need to walk in and ask to be a member to start the membership process. There is an interview and beyond that I dont know (its something I intend to press my mate on next time we meet... criteria for acceptance).
According to him they were more then happy to make him a mason even though he knew noone involved.
I'd find that hard to believe if it wasnt coming from the mouth of a good friend of mine telling me so.

Curiouser and curiouser said Alice...

DeV.

ykt0di9url7bc3 · 25-11-2002 8:09pm

It is the world's oldest and largest fraternity dating back at least to the Middle Ages. Its purpose is to promote the bonds of friendship, compassion and brotherly love. Politics has no role in it. Neither is it a religion as some would have you believe but rather a friend and promoter of all religions which are based on the belief in one God. Regardless of their position in society, Freemasons meet as equals. One of the most fascinating aspects of Freemasonry has always been how so many men from so many different walks of life can meet together in peace, never discuss politics or engage in religious debates, conduct their affairs in harmony and friendship, and call each other "Brother".

IMHO the further Religion is from politics the better, and that goes for secret societies or non secret societies too

from what i gather from my reading is that freemasons is an organisation that works for a morally sound society through charitable organisation between its members (who enjoy working together)....

what I reckon is that its a organisation like the Lions club but has a good social structure and keeps to itself...

and WWM the Knights Templar do not exist today! a couple of american rich boys prancing about in medevil get-up coz they having nothing else to do with thier money.....yeah GO TEAM!

Freemasons: Evil secret society or misunderstood nice guys...

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