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Leaving property. No lease signed.

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  • 16-05-2020 11:05am
    #1
    splashuum
    Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭


    A friend of mine has got himself in a small situation with a Landlord.
    Renter is unsure of his rights.

    Started renting a room in February. Never signed a lease. Therefore wasnt registered with RTB. (LL lives in property)
    Gave notice that they were leaving in April.
    (they had to leave house and job due to c-19 )
    Renter had someone to replace them in the property but LL declined due to health concerns.
    Landlord is now keeping a large amount of the deposit as only 15 days notice was given rather the normal 28.

    In general, what are the tenants rights in this scenario? Is the standard 28 days notice even applicable?


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Comments

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    #2
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Does the landlord live in the property?


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    #3
    splashuum
    Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭splashuum


    Graham wrote: »
    Does the landlord live in the property?

    yes


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    #4
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    It sounds like your friend is a licensee rather than a tenant.

    Licensees don't have the protection of the Residential Tenancies Act or the RTB.

    Small claims court may be a low-cost option for your friend to pursue the return of the deposit.


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    #5
    splashuum
    Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭splashuum


    Thanks for info. Technically the 28 days rule doesn't hold any bearing here so?


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    #6
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    None at all.

    It's all down to what the two parties agreed/negotiate.


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    #7
    splashuum
    Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭splashuum


    Final Q. Is it possible to be be registered with the RTB without having signed a lease?


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    #8
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    splashuum wrote: »
    Final Q. Is it possible to be be registered with the RTB without having signed a lease?

    A written lease is not a legal requirement, but tenancies must be registered, so yes, you can register a tenancy without a written lease.

    But bare in mind, licensee agreements are not registered with the RTB as they are not tenancies.


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    #9
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    As a lease is not a legal requirement for a tenancy to exist, yes it is possible for a tenancy to be registered without a lease.

    You wouldn't register a licensee with the RTB.

    A tenant (not a licensee) has the protection of the RTB regardless of registration status.


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    #10
    Sarn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭Sarn


    Tenancies are supposed to be registered with the RTB, however, that wouldn’t affect the ability of a tenant to use the RTB if a dispute arose. The RTB isn’t relevant in this case as it doesn’t cover licencees.


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    #11
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,623 ✭✭✭Fol20


    splashuum wrote: »
    A friend of mine has got himself in a small situation with a Landlord.
    Renter is unsure of his rights.

    Started renting a room in February. Never signed a lease. Therefore wasnt registered with RTB. (LL lives in property)
    Gave notice that they were leaving in April.
    (they had to leave house and job due to c-19 )
    Renter had someone to replace them in the property but LL declined due to health concerns.
    Landlord is now keeping a large amount of the deposit as only 15 days notice was given rather the normal 28.

    In general, what are the tenants rights in this scenario? Is the standard 28 days notice even applicable?

    If your friend pays monthly. Then he should give a months notice. The owner has valid concerns for health reasons so I think it is only reasonable that you would only get half your deposit back.


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    #12
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    To be honest in normal circumstances until covid they had no rights and to be honest if he wants to leave then do so....

    The rent a room is €14k tax free to the home owner and they can turf you or whoever out whenever they like.... With covid it is a grey area but would anyone want to be hanging around if there are major issues.


    Did they give much of a deposit?

    They should be given this back and I wouldn't be leaving without unless willing to take that hit.

    It isn't a normal tenancy and the normal rules enforcement by rtb doesn't come into it as they don't get involved.


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    #13
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,623 ✭✭✭Fol20


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    To be honest in normal circumstances until covid they had no rights and to be honest if he wants to leave then do so....

    The rent a room is €14k tax free to the home owner and they can turf you or whoever out whenever they like.... With covid it is a grey area but would anyone want to be hanging around if there are major issues.


    Did they give much of a deposit?

    They should be given this back and I wouldn't be leaving without unless willing to take that hit.

    Why so?

    The tenant didn’t provide adequate notice.


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    #14
    splashuum
    Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭splashuum


    Sarn wrote: »
    Tenancies are supposed to be registered with the RTB, however, that wouldn’t affect the ability of a tenant to use the RTB if a dispute arose. The RTB isn’t relevant in this case as it doesn’t cover licencees.

    Is it possible that the tenant could have been registered to RTB by the LL without the tenant knowing?


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    #15
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    splashuum wrote: »
    Is it possible that the tenant could have been registered to RTB by the LL without the tenant knowing?
    Dont see the point as it is not a tenancy.
    If that was done the tenant should have got a confirmation letter from PRTB and the tenancy would be on the PRTB register (no personal details listed)


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    #16
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Fol20 wrote: »
    Why so?

    The tenant didn’t provide adequate notice.

    It doesn't sound like he was a 'tenant'.

    Without knowing what was agreed between the parties, there is no way of knowing whether the notice was 'adequate'.

    There is no statutory provision for notice periods for a licensee.


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    #17
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Fol20 wrote: »
    Why so?

    The tenant didn’t provide adequate notice.

    Swings and roundabouts....

    The tenant is a licensee.... They aren't in a normal tenancy that would be say a house share or on their own but where the LL doesn't reside there....

    They have no rights so no agreement was made anyway and even if it were the LL could still turf one out under normal circumstances.


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    #18
    splashuum
    Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭splashuum


    If the landlord resides in the property the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 is not applicable to anyone living in the property.

    True?


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    #19
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    I guess a landlord could offer a tenancy if he were ill-informed or wanted to come under the jurisdiction of the RTB.


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    #20
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    Fol20 wrote: »
    Why so?

    The tenant didn’t provide adequate notice.

    What is adequate notice for a licencee?

    Answer: there is no legal requirement to give any notice. Perhaps they contractually agreed to notice. If not then the deposit should likely be returned.


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    #21
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,005 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    splashuum wrote: »
    If the landlord resides in the property the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 is not applicable to anyone living in the property.

    True?

    True. You have been told repeatedly that this is a license situation not a tenancy. No RTB registration, no protection under the RTA.


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    #22
    splashuum
    Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭splashuum


    Caranica wrote: »
    True. You have been told repeatedly that this is a license situation not a tenancy. No RTB registration, no protection under the RTA.

    "I guess a landlord could offer a tenancy if he were ill-informed or wanted to come under the jurisdiction of the RTB "

    This confused me slightly. As it seems it may be possible.


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    #23
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,623 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    What is adequate notice for a licencee?

    Answer: there is no legal requirement to give any notice. Perhaps they contractually agreed to notice. If not then the deposit should likely be returned.

    In the real world. It’s normally the frequency rent is paid.ie weekly,fortnightly or monthly. In this case I would assume monthly and the fact the op says they gave 15 days notice instead of a month. Gl trying to fight this as I assume your talking about disputing maybe a few hundred euro especially when he probably knows himself he didn’t give enough notice.


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    #24
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Not difficult/expensive to fight. €25, small claims court.


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    #25
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,005 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    splashuum wrote: »
    "I guess a landlord could offer a tenancy if he were ill-informed or wanted to come under the jurisdiction of the RTB "

    This confused me slightly. As it seems it may be possible.

    The word "guess" was the clue. This is a license not a tenancy.


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    #26
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,623 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Graham wrote: »
    Not difficult/expensive to fight. €25, small claims court.

    Sorry, i meant the OP might potentially loose a few hundred if they are expecting the full deposit back vs half a deposit. If its only a few hundred especially when he didnt give a lot of notice, i would chalk it up as its not worth the hassle.


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    #27
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,266 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    splashuum wrote: »
    A friend of mine has got himself in a small situation with a Landlord.
    Renter is unsure of his rights.

    Started renting a room in February. Never signed a lease. Therefore wasnt registered with RTB. (LL lives in property)

    He is a Liencee and these aren’t registered with PRTB. He has no protection and can be asked to leave on the spot. Likewise he can leave whenever he wants


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    #28
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,266 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    splashuum wrote: »
    Final Q. Is it possible to be be registered with the RTB without having signed a lease?

    Yes.


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    #29
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,005 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    ted1 wrote: »
    Yes.

    If it was a tenancy.


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    #30
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,266 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Caranica wrote: »
    If it was a tenancy.

    That wasn’t part of the question..


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    #31
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,005 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    ted1 wrote: »
    That wasn’t part of the question..

    But if you read the OP's posts you'll see the question was asked in the hope that their friend was a tenant. They're clearly a licensee. RTB and RTA are irrelevant to them.


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