AP Post - Whether to apply or not

seekingthetruth · 28-10-2020 7:40pm #1

There is an AP1 post advertised in my school. I have been teaching for many years now but only got my CID in my current school 3 years ago after a very long road of subbing and one year contracts. I am burnt out from it all and also find the job very stressful however with my situation I need more money for my future if possible.

I don't know whether to apply for the post or not as the extra stress would not be good for me personally however I would rise to the challenge if it came my way.

I have downloaded the application form and it really is a hard one to fill out with all the education jargon involved and examples requested.

Is it worth the effort? Should I be seen to be going for these so that I may get one in the future if not this one? I would also be afraid of making a fool out of myself in interview and then having to work with management etc afterwards and feeling foolish and maybe being looked at in a poor light.

Can someone in the know advise please?

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 7:45pm

seekingthetruth wrote: »

There is an AP1 post advertised in my school. I have been teaching for many years now but only got my CID in my current school 3 years ago after a very long road of subbing and one year contracts. I am burnt out from it all and also find the job very stressful however with my situation I need more money for my future if possible.

I don't know whether to apply for the post or not as the extra stress would not be good for me personally however I would rise to the challenge if it came my way.

I have downloaded the application form and it really is a hard one to fill out with all the education jargon involved and examples requested.

Is it worth the effort? Should I be seen to be going for these so that I may get one in the future if not this one? I would also be afraid of making a fool out of myself in interview and then having to work with management etc afterwards and feeling foolish and maybe being looked at in a poor light.

Can someone in the know advise please?

Go for it. Yes it's worth the effort. No harm to show that you want to do more, and even if you make a balls of the interview, you can learn from it. It won't go against you in the future. No principal would look poorly on any colleague putting their name forward.

You mention stress, what would the ap most likely be? Year head?

seekingthetruth · 28-10-2020 7:51pm

Year Head I'm guessing but them I'm wondering if someone with another post (ap2) gets it instead would there post become available and then maybe I go for that too instead

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 7:53pm

seekingthetruth wrote: »

Year Head I'm guessing but them I'm wondering if someone with another post (ap2) gets it instead would there post become available and then maybe I go for that too instead

Yeah you could. I don't know about your school, but with the amount of chopping and changing in schools these days, there are always posts up every 3 years or so. But go for the ap1, and then if that person gets it, they have to go interviews again, but this time you pretty much know exactly what the questions will be so!

solerina · 28-10-2020 8:36pm

seekingthetruth wrote: »

Year Head I'm guessing but them I'm wondering if someone with another post (ap2) gets it instead would there post become available and then maybe I go for that too instead

Depends on the post, and it also depends on the school, we have a 2 AP2 posts that are year head to 2 full year groups, that’s a huge amount of extra work. We have an AP1 post that has year head along with 3/4 other jobs. None of the posts in my school are worth it financially imo as a lot of extra work is required and after tax the extra money isnt that much !!

seekingthetruth · 28-10-2020 8:53pm

This will be a year head to one group post so good bit of extra money but its the stress Im worried about and long term - I have a lot of years left ahead of me and with the extra work and hassle but I want to get ahead in life too and have more money if possible.

Treppen · 28-10-2020 9:32pm

If you're burnt out and stressed then that's a red flag.
If you're not getting time off from your timetable (some schools do some don't) then it's going to get worse, maybe you might get an easier timetable next year!
Depends on the school too though, you need support and good relationship from management , parents, teachers, guidance, learning support etc. for year head role.

9k for A post is 5 k after tax. Might stand to you for mortgage application or extra pension contribution etc!
Or u could forego the stress and try and make that with exam correcting + invigilating, if your summers are free.

It's there any trusted yearheads you could have a chat with in the school? They could give you a peek behind the curtain.

mirrorwall14 · 28-10-2020 9:50pm

Can you do grinds? Even declared at least the income is for a role you are already doing. If you are already stressed I would be cautious about adding even more stress to it. And A posts are not easy

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 9:52pm

seekingthetruth wrote: »

This will be a year head to one group post so good bit of extra money but its the stress Im worried about and long term - I have a lot of years left ahead of me and with the extra work and hassle but I want to get ahead in life too and have more money if possible.

If you go into it for the money, you will be disappointed. It's for giving back to the school and the kids, and to up skill and move up the ladder. I've been ty coordinator and year head, neither was "worth the money". You have to want to do it.

Millem · 28-10-2020 9:58pm

For me no it’s definitely not worth it. I would prefer to make extra money by superintending etc. Maybe someone who has a post could tell you what it’s worth after tax. I would say you would be lucky to come out with 4K net. For me I remember roughly I used to say deductions were about 62% for extra work but I know the way they deduct pension is worked out differently now.

seekingthetruth · 28-10-2020 10:50pm

No grinds as when I leave work I dont want to be doing the same thing I have been doing all day in my evenings and weekends, I see on the application form that now seniority is gone out the window for posts as well..... that to me says unless you are willing to be constantly doing stuff in extra curricular and are a complete "yes" person to everything you are ever asked to do then you wont go anywhere.... Eventually people who are in the school much shorter than me will start getting posts....
I have done loads in extra curricular for years up until last year

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 10:53pm

seekingthetruth wrote: »

No grinds as when I leave work I dont want to be doing the same thing I have been doing all day in my evenings and weekends, I see on the application form that now seniority is gone out the window for posts as well..... that to me says unless you are willing to be constantly doing stuff in extra curricular and are a complete "yes" person to everything you are ever asked to do then you wont go anywhere.... Eventually people who are in the school much shorter than me will start getting posts....
I have done loads in extra curricular for years up until last year

That was a pretty big presumption to make. If you have a jaded attitude about the job already I really wouldn't advise it.

Moody_mona · 28-10-2020 10:53pm

seekingthetruth wrote: »

Eventually people who are in the school much shorter than me will start getting posts....

Yes, because they are suited to the position, have impressed with their application form and have performed well in interview. The removal of seniority levels the playing field, it's not a negative.

seekingthetruth · 28-10-2020 10:57pm

Ok I will wait and see what happens with future posts and I do see both of your points well

km79 · 29-10-2020 10:35am

From everything you have said I would not in your situation
Your motivation seems to be for the money . It won’t be worth it
You are already stressed and verging on burn out but want to take on more work and more responsibilities (and there is a lot ) ?

I feel like you are also applying because you feel like you should be applying due to less senior members of staff going for it . Again that is not a good motive . Some people are suited to these rules and motivated to them . Some are not. That was one of the reasons seniority was removed . To avoid people who didn’t even want them ending up in the role for 15/20 years .

Do not apply for this one and do not let it bother you who gets it . Have a really good think over the next while about whether you ever want one in case another comes up.

RealJohn · 30-10-2020 12:03am

seekingthetruth wrote: »

... that to me says unless you are willing to be constantly doing stuff in extra curricular and are a complete "yes" person to everything you are ever asked to do then you wont go anywhere...

Correct.

Moody_mona wrote: »

Yes, because they are suited to the position, have impressed with their application form and have performed well in interview. The removal of seniority levels the playing field, it's not a negative.

Incorrect. It allows the principal to select people he/she wants to keep because they’d be difficult to replace, or because they don’t kick up much of a fuss.
In our place, several senior teachers were passed over, in spite of more experience, and more done in the school, in favour of teachers who’d be difficult to replace and either had itchy feet (one gone since anyway) or had unsecure contracts and were likely to be snapped up by other “easier” schools if they weren’t given a reason to stay.
It created no end of ill-feeling in the staff room, and the ones who got them know exactly why and are doing the absolute minimum in their new roles (for the most part) because they know that management are scared of losing them.

seekingthetruth · 30-10-2020 12:28am

I agree with you RealJohn and tbh I do feel that seniority is a massive contributing factor to positivity in the work place and just to be clear my competition for the AP post would have far more seniority than me so I would certainly feel the pressure on that part plus how do you work with colleagues if they've been in the school far far longer and get passed over if want a post and have done loads over the years... its a really hard one...

I do want to go for it though and ok if I don't get it this time then hopefully in the future

Leftwaffe · 30-10-2020 1:57am

seekingthetruth wrote: »

I agree with you RealJohn and tbh I do feel that seniority is a massive contributing factor to positivity in the work place and just to be clear my competition for the AP post would have far more seniority than me so I would certainly feel the pressure on that part plus how do you work with colleagues if they've been in the school far far longer and get passed over if want a post and have done loads over the years... its a really hard one...

I do want to go for it though and ok if I don't get it this time then hopefully in the future

I know of cases where younger/newer teachers have gotten posts over far more senior members of staff and it has caused a toxic work environment to be honest. Not nice at all.

But then again what can you do. A level playing field seems fair to me. It's just that older teachers are less likely to go and them leadership and management courses that will get them posts imo.

Posts aren't for everyone anyway.

Smacruairi · 30-10-2020 2:49am

And to be fair, some older members of staff are brutal too. The removal of seniority was a good thing,it's fair, it's even. Anyone who takes the hump because someone younger than them got the job and therefore contributes to a toxic atmosphere can then only look in the mirror for why they didn't get it.

That being said, as with any career, sometimes a feckkn eejit gets it and slips through the cracks. They always get found out eventually and move on, I've seen it happen several times, just like I've watched eager younger staff burn themselves out after a year or 2 of it also.

rainbowtrout · 30-10-2020 11:44am

seekingthetruth wrote: »

No grinds as when I leave work I dont want to be doing the same thing I have been doing all day in my evenings and weekends, I see on the application form that now seniority is gone out the window for posts as well..... that to me says unless you are willing to be constantly doing stuff in extra curricular and are a complete "yes" person to everything you are ever asked to do then you wont go anywhere.... Eventually people who are in the school much shorter than me will start getting posts....
I have done loads in extra curricular for years up until last year

That's gone the last two years.

If you only got your CID 3 years ago, you are not in your school that long anyway. Seniority is attached to your school, so this system gives you an advantage not a disadvantage. Your experience can't be taken away from you though.

Don't do it just for the money, if you have a post, you are expected to do the duties. If you are already burned out extra work on top of your current hours probably aren't worth it. If the year head position is in a school with excellent discipline where things run like clockwork then it mightn't be an issue but if there are ongoing issues you will have a lot of work coming your way.

The money is useful but there are other ways of making money, some of which have been mentioned on here.

If you go for it, a principal won't think any more or less of you, there will be plenty of people in for the job, some who already have a B post so it will be no surprise and some who you wouldn't put in charge of licking envelopes but want to move up the managerial ladder nonetheless.

RealJohn · 30-10-2020 12:08pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Seniority is attached to your school, ...

This is not the case. One of the successful candidates in our last round of posts was barely in the school a wet week and either got the same marks for seniority as someone who’d been there 6 or 7 years, or got more (since I’m not sure who is who on the list, aside from the person who got top marks).

rainbowtrout · 30-10-2020 12:17pm

RealJohn wrote: »

This is not the case. One of the successful candidates in our last round of posts was barely in the school a wet week and either got the same marks for seniority as someone who’d been there 6 or 7 years, or got more (since I’m not sure who is who on the list, aside from the person who got top marks).

How long ago was that? Was it an ETB school, where seniority can carry? Seniority was also given out in bands, so you could end up in the same band as somebody even if you had more experience than them because the bands were determined by the person with the greatest seniority who applied for the job.

E.g. 20 marks going for seniority, split into bands of 5 marks. The person with the greatest years of experience applying for the job has 24 years completed. The bands are created based on that person's experience as follows:

19-24 years: 20 marks
13-18 years: 15 marks
7-12 years: 10 marks
0-6 years: 5 marks

So a person with 13 years is getting the same mark as the person with 18 years.

RealJohn · 30-10-2020 12:39pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

How long ago was that? Was it an ETB school, where seniority can carry? Seniority was also given out in bands, so you could end up in the same band as somebody even if you had more experience than them because the bands were determined by the person with the greatest seniority who applied for the job.

It was an ETB school but to the best of my knowledge, the guy didn’t come from another school in the same ETB (though I’m not 100% on that).
I know how the bands work though, and I still fail to see how the person in question could have wound up in the top band (if they did), and I think it must have been them because anyone else wouldn’t have been in the same band as the person I know was in the top band.

Leftwaffe · 30-10-2020 1:09pm

Out of curiosity, what are some courses one would have to complete in order to get an AP2 post? Might be something I'd consider down the line.

I've heard of people get them with little to nothing done and relatively new to teaching (no CID) . Then heard of people being refused with every course done under the sun.

rainbowtrout · 30-10-2020 1:14pm

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what are some courses one would have to complete in order to get an AP2 post? Might be something I'd consider down the line.

I've heard of people get them with little to nothing done and relatively new to teaching (no CID) . Then heard of people being refused with every course done under the sun.

That can unfortunately come down to the principal choosing a favourite in some cases.

scrubs33 · 30-10-2020 3:12pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That can unfortunately come down to the principal choosing a favourite in some cases.

Is there a case to be made i wonder for a minimum entry requirement for posts? Even something like a patrons course in leadership (I did one last year and boy was it some brainwashing effort) might encourage people to look at the role seriously rather than simply getting it because they live next door to the principal/ chair of BoM

RealJohn · 30-10-2020 3:37pm

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what are some courses one would have to complete in order to get an AP2 post? Might be something I'd consider down the line.

I've heard of people get them with little to nothing done and relatively new to teaching (no CID) . Then heard of people being refused with every course done under the sun.

I wouldn’t waste my time. As rainbowtrout said, if the principal wants to give it to someone else, they will. If they want to give it to you, they will. Short of having a nightmare of an interview, or the principal not caring who gets it, you’ll either have it or not before you walk into the interview.

Smacruairi · 30-10-2020 3:48pm

RealJohn wrote: »

I wouldn’t waste my time. As rainbowtrout said, if the principal wants to give it to someone else, they will. If they want to give it to you, they will. Short of having a nightmare of an interview, or the principal not caring who gets it, you’ll either have it or not before you walk into the interview.

I'd disagree with that. I mean you might get one or 2 dictators but on the whole I've seen far more positively surprising decisions than not. You have external people on the panel like.

Icsics · 30-10-2020 3:53pm

Yes, posts are in the gift of the Principal. Of course its dressed up in all sorts of 'openness' but if the P doesn't want you, then you won't get it. None of the older teachers in my school have posts, it leads to all sorts of issues. Namely, inexperienced teachers in over their heads & the school suffering as a result.

ethical · 30-10-2020 4:06pm

As some contributors on here have stated ,"if your face fits with the Principal" the job is yours even before you go to interview.
The other fact to note is that some interview boards,especially ETBs have the same lackeys on all the time and do NOT be fooled by the "outsiders" on the interview board,as those so called "outsiders" are lackeys from a nother ETB.I can list names (but cannot or I'd be in bother!) Its shocking the in bred nature of some institutions.I know when I was working overseas my CV was what mattered and then the interview whereas in good old Ireland ,as someone on here has already stated,if you happen to live next to the Principal or the Chair of the BoM your CV and interview do not matter much.
(In fact the only reason you get an interview is to keep these lackeys in expenses and if you research a little bit you will find some of these are on a Golden Pension and have had a very full career with the ETB and will still not feel like giving anything back for goodwill.Last I heard the undertaker was putting false bases in coffins so that theses boys (and some girls also) can take their untold richess with them1)

Mardy Bum · 30-10-2020 4:27pm

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what are some courses one would have to complete in order to get an AP2 post? Might be something I'd consider down the line.

I've heard of people get them with little to nothing done and relatively new to teaching (no CID) . Then heard of people being refused with every course done under the sun.

It depends on the needs of the school above all else.

Leftwaffe · 30-10-2020 5:11pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

It depends on the needs of the school above all else.

Not being smart at all but what do you mean by this? So they will look for courses relevant to the need of the school when deciding?

Smacruairi · 30-10-2020 5:13pm

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

Not being smart at all but what do you mean by this? So they will look for courses relevant to the need of the school when deciding?

Could be a post coming up that had been held by an IEN specialist, so if someone has a course done in that it would look better.

am_zarathustra · 30-10-2020 5:38pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

Could be a post coming up that had been held by an IEN specialist, so if someone has a course done in that it would look better.

The posts are not allowed to be specific now and your role can and does change every couple of years. The days of the ICT person etc are gone. I'm not entirely sure whether this is a good thing, given the specific nature of some roles, but that is the way. Having a qualification in a specific areas would probably help and does show professional development, which is always good!

I know in our place it wasn't people with courses or even degrees that got the roles but people who had worked hard within the school. All the questions were very much geared towards how you had materially improved things for the students and the staff as a whole.

Mardy Bum · 30-10-2020 6:37pm

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

Not being smart at all but what do you mean by this? So they will look for courses relevant to the need of the school when deciding?

The school may need someone who is very good at admin so that some work can be offloaded from the secretary. It may need someone who is good at building relationships and organising events. It may need someone who is meticulous with finances. It may need someone who is devoted to improve teaching and learning across the school rather than just their own fiefdom.

The best bet is demonstrating strong leadership capabilities by leading new or existing projects. This is frowned upon by most during the current industrial disputes. Otherwise, you could do a master's in an area you know will be required in the short to medium term.

Smacruairi · 30-10-2020 7:49pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

The posts are not allowed to be specific now and your role can and does change every couple of years. The days of the ICT person etc are gone. I'm not entirely sure whether this is a good thing, given the specific nature of some roles, but that is the way. Having a qualification in a specific areas would probably help and does show professional development, which is always good!

I know in our place it wasn't people with courses or even degrees that got the roles but people who had worked hard within the school. All the questions were very much geared towards how you had materially improved things for the students and the staff as a whole.

Yeah the interviews are very generic, and I understand the logic behind it. But if your ien person has left, everyone and the dog knows you need a new one, and there's someone in the staff with all those extra courses, you'd be mad not to hire them to be honest.

We had uproar in our place when a wellbeing coordinator was developed as an ap1, who then promptly went on maternity leave, came back, owing to reshuffling of posts became a year head, and is now making a balls of it. The generic interview style will be looked at again in a few years I imagine.

RealJohn · 30-10-2020 8:00pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

I'd disagree with that. I mean you might get one or 2 dictators but on the whole I've seen far more positively surprising decisions than not. You have external people on the panel like.

There are some surprising decisions, sure, but they’re a result of the principal not having a preference. The panel is there for show. It’s the principal’s decision. Talk to a principal other than your own. They’ll probably even admit it, as long as they don’t think they’ll ever have to explain their decision on a post to you in the future.

rainbowtrout · 30-10-2020 8:02pm

scrubs33 wrote: »

Is there a case to be made i wonder for a minimum entry requirement for posts? Even something like a patrons course in leadership (I did one last year and boy was it some brainwashing effort) might encourage people to look at the role seriously rather than simply getting it because they live next door to the principal/ chair of BoM

Minimum requirements currently are dictated by years of experience, 1 year for AP2, 3 years for AP1. It would get too specific I think if specific courses were required.

Smacruairi wrote: »

I'd disagree with that. I mean you might get one or 2 dictators but on the whole I've seen far more positively surprising decisions than not. You have external people on the panel like.

The external person on the panel last time round for me was a buddy of the principal. I knew it was game over the minute I walked into the interview. Went back to school, was chatting to the secretary and told her who was on the panel and her reply was 'oh you're definitely not getting it so'. :rolleyes:

Another teacher was told before lockdown that if they came in and did a couple of jobs for the principal during the summer that the next post would be theirs. :mad:

Icsics wrote: »

Yes, posts are in the gift of the Principal. Of course its dressed up in all sorts of 'openness' but if the P doesn't want you, then you won't get it. None of the older teachers in my school have posts, it leads to all sorts of issues. Namely, inexperienced teachers in over their heads & the school suffering as a result.

AP2 post in my school went to someone in the job 1.5 years. Now she's a good teacher but didn't yet have a CID, but it was a real kick in the teeth to a couple of the teachers who went for it who are there 15 years and do loads of extra curricular etc and are really competent and would have been good at the job. It's really telling them 'we do not value your experience, qualifications, work ethic or competence, but we expect you to keep doing all of this while we promote people above you with less experience'.

am_zarathustra wrote: »

The posts are not allowed to be specific now and your role can and does change every couple of years. The days of the ICT person etc are gone. I'm not entirely sure whether this is a good thing, given the specific nature of some roles, but that is the way. Having a qualification in a specific areas would probably help and does show professional development, which is always good!

True, but the reality is that if the ICT person retires it will need to be done by someone and if it's not being taken on by one of the existing post holders then the new person is going to get it.

Smacruairi · 30-10-2020 8:10pm

I can't speak to your own personal experience, and if you felt passed over for a pet in the school, sorry to hear. But having held posts in 2 diff schools at both a post and b post level, and now the new ap levels, more often than not you have loads of very qualified people all going for the one job, someone has to lose out unfortunately.

I've been on hiring panels for jobs in my school, even awkwardly interviewing an old colleague, and some people have terrible interviews(not saying you did!!) while thinking they did amazing. You would be surprised at the level of educational discourse among some rookies coming out of college - the problem with the interview is you're not allowed call someone's bull**** out, u just have to listen to their story and go yeah that's nice, move on.

But I agree, the snakeoil salesmen that are the jct employees hoovering up ETB and educate together jobs is sickening.

rainbowtrout · 30-10-2020 8:17pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

I can't speak to your own personal experience, and if you felt passed over for a pet in the school, sorry to hear. But having held posts in 2 diff schools at both a post and b post level, and now the new ap levels, more often than not you have loads of very qualified people all going for the one job, someone has to lose out unfortunately.

I've been on hiring panels for jobs in my school, even awkwardly interviewing an old colleague, and some people have terrible interviews(not saying you did!!) while thinking they did amazing. You would be surprised at the level of educational discourse among some rookies coming out of college - the problem with the interview is you're not allowed call someone's bull**** out, u just have to listen to their story and go yeah that's nice, move on.

But I agree, the snakeoil salesmen that are the jct employees hoovering up ETB and educate together jobs is sickening.

My principal was on the first panel and lied during the interview to discredit me. We weren't even all asked the same questions at the interview. I am the most qualified and experienced person in my staffroom by a country mile. When I won my first appeal the appeal board came back with 'we don't actually know how marks were arrived at because there was no marking scheme'. I am a country mile ahead of the candidates in terms of experience and qualifications who did get the posts. When I did get it second time round my principal did not acknowledge it but he did bring the guy who lost out into his office for a three hour confab on how to win the appeal... using the text of my appeal apparently worked.

Let's not even go into what happened on the third round. :mad:

Don't kid yourself on the idea that loads of qualified people are going for the job so someone has to lose out.

Smacruairi · 30-10-2020 8:19pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

My principal was on the first panel and lied during the interview to discredit me. We weren't even all asked the same questions at the interview. I am the most qualified and experienced person in my staffroom by a country mile. When I won my first appeal the appeal board came back with 'we don't actually know how marks were arrived at because there was no marking scheme'. I am a country mile ahead of the candidates in terms of experience and qualifications who did get the posts. When I did get it second time round my principal did not acknowledge it but he did bring the guy who lost out into his office for a three hour confab on how to win the appeal... using the text of my appeal apparently worked.

Let's not even go into what happened on the third round. :mad:

Don't kid yourself on the idea that loads of qualified people are going for the job so someone has to lose out.

Well the fact that there is no qualification explicitly set other than having served 5 years, normally, yes, there are loads of people qualified.

rainbowtrout · 30-10-2020 8:23pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

Well the fact that there is no qualification explicitly set other than having served 5 years, normally, yes, there are loads of people qualified.

Look you might work in a school where things are done properly, but loads of us don't. It would be madness not to acknowledge that many panels are just going through the motions and it's the principals decision at the end of the day and if people are getting posts after 2 years in the school they haven't even had the time to bring a group through Junior Cert so where exactly are they getting the experience of management, long term planning etc?

Smacruairi · 30-10-2020 8:29pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Look you might work in a school where things are done properly, but loads of us don't. It would be madness not to acknowledge that many panels are just going through the motions and it's the principals decision at the end of the day and if people are getting posts after 2 years in the school they haven't even had the time to bring a group through Junior Cert so where exactly are they getting the experience of management, long term planning etc?

I didn't discount your viewpoint, like with every profession sometimes people slip through cracks. I literally gave an example of it happening above myself. I'm just also saying that some people moan in the staffroom, and these people wouldn't cross the road to help the school unless they got paid extra for it. It's swings and roundabouts in my experience, but you'd have to admit that when people really want a job their opinion of who actually gets it might be coloured.

rainbowtrout · 30-10-2020 8:58pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

I didn't discount your viewpoint, like with every profession sometimes people slip through cracks. I literally gave an example of it happening above myself. I'm just also saying that some people moan in the staffroom, and these people wouldn't cross the road to help the school unless they got paid extra for it. It's swings and roundabouts in my experience, but you'd have to admit that when people really want a job their opinion of who actually gets it might be coloured.

No I wouldn't have to admit that at all. When the principal is telling members of staff that the next post is earmarked for them long before the post is even advertised my view is not coloured at all, because it's a done deal months in advance.

Empathy20 · 30-10-2020 9:39pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No I wouldn't have to admit that at all. When the principal is telling members of staff that the next post is earmarked for them long before the post is even advertised my view is not coloured at all, because it's a done deal months in advance.

Totally agree. I have seen in my school since new management arrived established hard working teachers were overlooked. One new post holder did not even have a CID but had a path worn to the office. I had an interesting conversation with some colleagues a few weeks ago about the number of new staff who were connected to the Principal on a personal level. One colleague even pointed out that any of the new subs who know the Principal personally are picking up probably full hours but other subs are the last to be called. Also to point out some of these new staff are not qualified. So the notion its an even playing field for everyone is fantasy.

deiseindublin · 30-10-2020 11:38pm

@rainbowtrout - sounds horrendous where you're based. Is this for DP, AP1 or AP2? Is it the same for all staff, or all saved up for you?

rainbowtrout · 30-10-2020 11:41pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

@rainbowtrout - sounds horrendous where you're based. Is this for DP, AP1 or AP2? Is it the same for all staff, or all saved up for you?

I'm not going to say too much to identify me, I have an AP2 currently, women are second class citizens where I work. I'd say I'll need a trip to the WRC to get an AP1. But lots of women have had similar experience here.

deiseindublin · 30-10-2020 11:50pm

Ah, sorry, probably shouldn't have asked, but I always find it shocking reading your posts. I'm also in an ETB and while I'm not so innocent as to think everything is all above board all the time, there's nowhere even touching that level of corruption.

rainbowtrout · 30-10-2020 11:55pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

Ah, sorry, probably shouldn't have asked, but I always find it shocking reading your posts. I'm also in an ETB and while I'm not so innocent as to think everything is all above board all the time, there's nowhere even touching that level of corruption.

Not at all, we say we should be writing it all down for the movie script

scrubs33 · 31-10-2020 9:04am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

My principal was on the first panel and lied during the interview to discredit me. We weren't even all asked the same questions at the interview. I am the most qualified and experienced person in my staffroom by a country mile. When I won my first appeal the appeal board came back with 'we don't actually know how marks were arrived at because there was no marking scheme'. I am a country mile ahead of the candidates in terms of experience and qualifications who did get the posts. When I did get it second time round my principal did not acknowledge it but he did bring the guy who lost out into his office for a three hour confab on how to win the appeal... using the text of my appeal apparently worked.

Let's not even go into what happened on the third round. :mad:

Don't kid yourself on the idea that loads of qualified people are going for the job so someone has to lose out.

There’s lots of war stories like this I’d say. I know in our place there is a post filled by a female but it’s purely token as all the decisions are made by the principal and the GAA lads who got posts as soon as they were hired.

Treppen · 31-10-2020 10:25am

I'm going to say something controversial here....

In "a friend's school" there used to be a gentleman's agreement that the most senior person always got the post.
Once you were in the school for so long it was like a rite of passage that you graduated to the post.
You knew a few years in advance who was retiring.

Here's the kicker, once the post became available there was generally only one or two candidate's but the most senior always got the post. People waited their turn and purposefully didn't go forward to interview.

Now it's open season.

AP Post - Whether to apply or not

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