Coronavirus and the effect on Public transport

punisher5112 · 23-04-2020 2:50pm

Anyone planning on going to Spain and the likes would want to be seriously getting help or checked out....

They haven't just got rid and if people start going back to normal this could well explode again and even worse.....

Dravokivich · 23-04-2020 3:11pm

bk wrote: »

So will it make a difference when you take your holidays in that case? You are going to be home either way.

They want people to use their holidays when there's less demand for service. My point to the person i was quoting, was that wont affect the wage bill.

GT89 · 23-04-2020 8:47pm

bk wrote: »

The government has already announced this week that all football matches, concerts, etc. are all off until at least September and realistically they are off until this is completely beaten (vaccine/treatment/dies out), so those aren't a concern.

My point was more that once you cut out the unessecary crowds and reduce the crowds only to places where crowds are nessecary like public transport then you going to reduce transmission rates.

Not all offices are the same. Some still have actual individual offices and doors. Even my own open plan style office has a good few meters between each person and dividers

By comparison, public transport is WAY worse in my books. People are squeezed shoulder to shoulder on public transport, much worse then many offices.

True and it sort of re emphasizes my point social distancing can be easily implemented in an office enviroment but in a more confined enviroment like public transport it cannot. But the risk of a lack of social distancing on public transport is far lower than not having social distancing in an office.

I'm saying we should be going back to sardine can like buses and trains but the rules can be relaxed for it on public transport. Less over crowding would actually make public transport much more pleasant for people to use as long as people aren't being left behind at bus stops.

Look, there will of course be some people who have no choice but to take public transport.

However there are many people who do have a choice, and if safety steps aren't taken, I can tell you right now, that they won't be returning to public transport.

Think about those who have a car, but normally take public transport because it is faster or they don't have to pay for parking. Most of them will choose to take their car, even if slower/more expensive, rather then risk catching a deadly disease on a bus.

Many offices will give their employees the option to work from home where possible, if they don't feel safe coming into the office. For many having to take public transport will be what swings it for them to decide to continue to work from home. That is what my company is doing, we have been told that we can work from home for the next year with no issues and to plan accordingly (order extra gear to WFH, etc.). Most of my friends in other IT companies have been told the same.

Of course a lot of IT work can be done from home and I think it will be something more common going forward but working from home is not feasible for everyone in the long run or even doable at the moment. The retail and hospitality will return to some extent over the coming months. A lot of workers in those industries would be people who have no option but to use public transport.

Also the car is feasible solution to many working in Dublin. Especially considering most businesses do not provide parking for employees and on street parking is looking likely to be severely restricted.

I think you are very much mistaken if you think most people are just going to crowd back on buses, with no safety steps, when a deadly disease is doing the rounds.

I fear we might do real long term damage to public transport use if you stick your head in the sand like that.

BTW I appreciate the difficulty drivers would have with enforcing a face mask rule. Perhaps it would make sense to temporarily hire out of work bouncers to work on the buses, enforcing the rules. Like many supermarkets have done.

I don't people will crowd back to the extent they were before but social distancing or mask rules I feel will not be feasible and you're going to have to have a certain degree of risk attached. I can tell you the idea of having to wear a mask is something that dosen't sit well with a lot of people.

Also the idea of employing bouncers on buses is not feasible considering it would require one bouncer for every driver.

punisher5112 · 23-04-2020 9:00pm

Bring back conductors..... Or he'll get ticket checkers(inspector) out doing their job.... Ridiculous having these in garages answering a phone or telling you have GT89..... And then we have to write it on the docket....

Dravokivich · 24-04-2020 11:02am

GT89 wrote: »

True and it sort of re emphasizes my point social distancing can be easily implemented in an office enviroment but in a more confined enviroment like public transport it cannot. But the risk of a lack of social distancing on public transport is far lower than not having social distancing in an office.

I'm saying we should be going back to sardine can like buses and trains but the rules can be relaxed for it on public transport. Less over crowding would actually make public transport much more pleasant for people to use as long as people aren't being left behind at bus stops.

Eh, the issue here is that people split up and go to multiple points then come back again from them. That's were the risk is, in community transmission. Easing restrictions on public transport will just increase the spread of people, while we should be looking to contain them in within smaller areas.

bk · 24-04-2020 11:06am

GT89 wrote: »

My point was more that once you cut out the unessecary crowds and reduce the crowds only to places where crowds are nessecary like public transport then you going to reduce transmission rates.

That isn't the way this works. The way this works is you need to reduce contact and exposure everywhere possible.

Non essential events is easy, you just cancel them as you say.

Obviously essential activities is more difficult problem, but even then, you take every step possible to reduce contact and exposure.

Look at supermarkets, they are essential, more so then public transport, but they aren't just leaving people crowd in with no safety steps, that would be mad! Most supermarkets are enforcing multiple rules:
- Only a small number of people in the supermarket at a time. You have to wait for someone to leave before you can enter.
- Controlled queue outside, 2 meter between each. Some have bouncers.
- No kids unless unavoidable, 1 person per trolley.
- Gloves and handwash on entering.
- Screens in front of staff at tills, fruit, etc.
- Massively increasing their online delivery services.

It is absolutely insane and unacceptable to suggest that we just try and crowd people back on buses with no protection!!

Germany and other countries are requiring masks on buses, etc. I can't see why the same can't be done here. It isn't that hard.

Remember, in the end it is the medical experts in the NPHET who will decide this. Not DB or the unions, though I do think they could be proactive on this.

Remember, the only reason buses are still running at 80%, rather then 20% or 30%, is because the NPHET instructed for that to happen. You can be certain they are getting daily updates from the NTA on passenger numbers and once the numbers go up, I've no doubt they will be making new requirements and recommendations.

bk · 24-04-2020 11:21am

Dravokivich wrote: »

Eh, the issue here is that people split up and go to multiple points then come back again from them. That's were the risk is, in community transmission. Easing restrictions on public transport will just increase the spread of people, while we should be looking to contain them in within smaller areas.

Plus their is the issue of contract tracing. If there is a case in the office/factory/etc., then it is much easier to know who that person might be close to or meet and inform them and get them tested too.

Already happened to a friend of mine, at the start of this a few weeks ago, he got an email from his employer saying a colleague in his office that he had been in contact with had tested positive and as a result for my friend to self-isolate at home for 14 days. He did and fortunately developed no symptoms. But possible spread was contained.

Public transport is the worst, because that is very difficult to do. If an infected person boards the bus, then it is very difficult to contact and let the others on the bus know they might have been in contact and to isolate/get tested.

Some countries have developed apps that track your every movement by GPS and then they use that information for contact tracing and to inform others they may have been close too. Of course those are mostly Asian countries, it is very questionable if such monitoring and invasion of privacy would be acceptable here.

So if it isn't we need to find other ways to contract trace and limit the spread.

GT89 · 24-04-2020 11:29am

bk wrote: »

That isn't the way this works. The way this works is you need to reduce contact and exposure everywhere possible.

Non essential events is easy, you just cancel them as you say.

Obviously essential activities is more difficult problem, but even then, you take every step possible to reduce contact and exposure.

Look at supermarkets, they are essential, more so then public transport, but they aren't just leaving people crowd in with no safety steps, that would be mad! Most supermarkets are enforcing multiple rules:
- Only a small number of people in the supermarket at a time. You have to wait for someone to leave before you can enter.
- Controlled queue outside, 2 meter between each. Some have bouncers.
- No kids unless unavoidable, 1 person per trolley.
- Gloves and handwash on entering.
- Screens in front of staff at tills, fruit, etc.
- Massively increasing their online delivery services.

It is absolutely insane and unacceptable to suggest that we just try and crowd people back on buses with no protection!!

Germany and other countries are requiring masks on buses, etc. I can't see why the same can't be done here. It isn't that hard.

Remember, in the end it is the medical experts in the NPHET who will decide this. Not DB or the unions, though I do think they could be proactive on this.

Remember, the only reason buses are still running at 80%, rather then 20% or 30%, is because the NPHET instructed for that to happen. You can be certain they are getting daily updates from the NTA on passenger numbers and once the numbers go up, I've no doubt they will be making new requirements and recommendations.

Easy to do in a supermarket not so easy to do on a bus, tram or a train. Some supermarkets seem to be better than others when it comes to this and even not everyone is practising social distancing. I don't think people will crowd back to buses or trains as the demand won't be there but it won't be practical to have people 2m apart or use the current arrangement with the majority of seats out of use.

I'd be interested to see how Germany is getting on enforcing that rule.

Jamie2k9 · 24-04-2020 1:07pm

Dublin Bus notified the NTA of day on day increases in passenger numbers this week and they are the highest in weeks.

bk · 24-04-2020 1:34pm

GT89 wrote: »

Easy to do in a supermarket not so easy to do on a bus, tram or a train. Some supermarkets seem to be better than others when it comes to this and even not everyone is practising social distancing. I don't think people will crowd back to buses or trains as the demand won't be there but it won't be practical to have people 2m apart or use the current arrangement with the majority of seats out of use.

I agree 2 meters is hard if not impossible to enforce on public transport. That is why masks are necessary on public transport IMO. Masks allow for a distance well under 2 meters and are probably more effective then the 2 meter rule anyway.

If the NPHET see too many people on buses, they could well order the shutdown of all bus services, if other steps aren't taken.

Public transport is of course very important, but if they become a petri dish for the spread of the disease, they will be shutdown very quickly by the health authorities.

That is why I'd hope that the NTA/DB/other companies/Unions have been using this time wisely over the past few weeks, when things were quieter, to have a solid plan for when things start to open back up again.

If the plan really is, stick your head in the sand and carry on as usual, then I'd fear it will be a disaster for public transport, peoples health and the economy.

GT89 · 24-04-2020 2:15pm

bk wrote: »

I agree 2 meters is hard if not impossible to enforce on public transport. That is why masks are necessary on public transport IMO. Masks allow for a distance well under 2 meters and are probably more effective then the 2 meter rule anyway.

If the NPHET see too many people on buses, they could well order the shutdown of all bus services, if other steps aren't taken.

Public transport is of course very important, but if they become a petri dish for the spread of the disease, they will be shutdown very quickly by the health authorities.

That is why I'd hope that the NTA/DB/other companies/Unions have been using this time wisely over the past few weeks, when things were quieter, to have a solid plan for when things start to open back up again.

If the plan really is, stick your head in the sand and carry on as usual, then I'd fear it will be a disaster for public transport, peoples health and the economy.

The problem with masks is people don't use them properly. I was on a walk the other day and found loads of used masks and disposable gloves thrown everywhere. Also some people re use masks or use cloth masks without washing them. If used incorrectly they could be more harmful than beneficial.

punisher5112 · 24-04-2020 3:09pm

I'm seeing a huge increase in numbers travelling on the buses.....

bk · 24-04-2020 6:33pm

GT89 wrote: »

The problem with masks is people don't use them properly. I was on a walk the other day and found loads of used masks and disposable gloves thrown everywhere. Also some people re use masks or use cloth masks without washing them. If used incorrectly they could be more harmful than beneficial.

Yikes!!!

The point behind surgical style masks or simple cotton masks is too stop you from spreading it to others if you are infected. It doesn't matter if an infected person doesn't wash the mask, they are already have the disease. But the benefit is quiet simply that if they sneeze, the virus doesn't blow out up to 8 meters within the bus. Even an unwashed mask and an ill fitting mask will still help with that.

Of course any mask wearing rule will need to be accompanied with an extensive advertising campaign to teach correct mask usage. Just like they did a few weeks ago with teaching people how to wash hands properly. And having watched videos on how to correctly wear masks, it really isn't that difficult.

And of course, adherence won't be 100%, just like I'm sure not everyone is washing their hands correctly. But the point of all these sort of measures is to reduce the spread, not a 100% silver bullet solution.

If all the Asian countries require it, who have far more experience of these sort of disease then us require it, if Germany, Italy and Spain require it and if even the CDC in the US now require it, I don't see why we would think we are specially or different.

Frankly if we can't accept this, then I'd say we will have to shut down all public transport until a vaccine is found, simple as that.

punisher5112 · 24-04-2020 7:19pm

Still seeing many drivers use facilities then do a quick splash and dash......

Signs everywhere and it's now common knowledge or it damn well should be.....

Wash your flipping hands and do it right you may well save the spread....

d51984 · 24-04-2020 8:31pm

I got a brick through a upstairs window earlier, have to say the Guards were on scene in about 2 minutes. Amount of teenagers out and about. The mind boggles.

Im a Clontarf driver but was sent a Harristown bus to take over. Could of been some transfers though.

ArmaniJeanss · 24-04-2020 8:36pm

hmmm wrote: »

We might need some short-term solutions to reduce risk e.g. all windows should be welded open, perspex between seats, remove seats. Some public transport will become non-viable for a period.

It's often near enough to 0c even in summer on the very early buses of the day.
And have you seen what a bus is like on a windy day with very heavy rain if there are windows open.
Reckon your plan to save people from cv would cause a few severe flu/pneumonia cases instead.

GT89 · 24-04-2020 8:55pm

bk wrote: »

Yikes!!!

The point behind surgical style masks or simple cotton masks is too stop you from spreading it to others if you are infected. It doesn't matter if an infected person doesn't wash the mask, they are already have the disease. But the benefit is quiet simply that if they sneeze, the virus doesn't blow out up to 8 meters within the bus. Even an unwashed mask and an ill fitting mask will still help with that.

Of course any mask wearing rule will need to be accompanied with an extensive advertising campaign to teach correct mask usage. Just like they did a few weeks ago with teaching people how to wash hands properly. And having watched videos on how to correctly wear masks, it really isn't that difficult.

And of course, adherence won't be 100%, just like I'm sure not everyone is washing their hands correctly. But the point of all these sort of measures is to reduce the spread, not a 100% silver bullet solution.

If all the Asian countries require it, who have far more experience of these sort of disease then us require it, if Germany, Italy and Spain require it and if even the CDC in the US now require it, I don't see why we would think we are specially or different.

Frankly if we can't accept this, then I'd say we will have to shut down all public transport until a vaccine is found, simple as that.

I'd it would be more a reccomendation to wear a mask than something that is required. But masks littered on trains, trams and buses would be a health risk.

hmmm · 25-04-2020 12:05am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Reckon your plan to save people from cv would cause a few severe flu/pneumonia cases instead.

If people aren't willing to put on a jumper we can't run buses with anything like capacity until this is over.

There is plenty of evidence that this thing overwhelmingly transmits indoors. I've no doubt that many/most people will not travel on public transport with all the windows locked.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/8/20-1274_article
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.04.20053058v1?fbclid=IwAR3frqh0WXMjaGafYgjyMa7VObMu4FwcQNx1Dz8hLyefQnngkCgZ_adJc-8

GT89 · 25-04-2020 12:06am

hmmm wrote: »

If people aren't willing to put on a jumper we can't run buses with anything like capacity until this is over.

There is plenty of evidence that this thing overwhelmingly transmits indoors. I've no doubt that many/most people will not travel on public transport with all the windows locked.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/8/20-1274_article
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.04.20053058v1?fbclid=IwAR3frqh0WXMjaGafYgjyMa7VObMu4FwcQNx1Dz8hLyefQnngkCgZ_adJc-8

Better solution use open top buses on normal service routes. The windows aren't locked people can open them.

john boye · 25-04-2020 12:38am

GT89 wrote: »

Better solution use open top buses on normal service routes. The windows aren't locked people can open them.

Some of these suggestions are just getting absurd now.

GT89 · 25-04-2020 12:47am

john boye wrote: »

Some of these suggestions are just getting absurd now.

My one was a joke

john boye · 25-04-2020 12:51am

GT89 wrote: »

My one was a joke

Ah OK. I was worried you were going to suggest that pax inject bleach into themselves before they get on the bus next.

GT89 · 25-04-2020 1:00am

john boye wrote: »

Ah OK. I was worried you were going to suggest that pax inject bleach into themselves before they get on the bus next.

Don't be surprised when you see an empty bottle of Harpic at the back of the 77a

bk · 25-04-2020 12:56pm

GT89 wrote: »

I'd it would be more a reccomendation to wear a mask than something that is required. But masks littered on trains, trams and buses would be a health risk.

Not at all defending the dirty feckers who litter like that. But it terms of health risk, masks littered like this would be a much smaller health risk.

The biggest danger with this virus is it being ejected by a cough/sneeze into the air up to 8 meters on a crowded bus.

A dirty mask on the ground by comparison may have the virus on it's surface, but that is less dangerous then the virus swirling around in the air. As long as the poor person who has to clean the bus takes proper precautions with disinfectant and gloves, it shouldn't pose any greater risk.

Anyway, we aren't talking about disposable masks here. Mostly what is being recommended are reusable and washable cotton masks.

BTW Czech Republic are really showing the case for wearing masks. A few weeks ago they had about the same many cases and deaths as us. They then introduced a law requiring masks. Since then, their number of cases is now a third of ours and their number of deaths is a quarter, despite their population being twice as large as us!

25-04-2020 2:06pm

Simple solution to the PT issue, run at an increased frequency, thereby reducing the amount of people on each bus

dowlingm · 25-04-2020 6:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Simple solution to the PT issue, run at an increased frequency, thereby reducing the amount of people on each bus

Simple if you have the vehicles (in maintenance and cleaned) and drivers available. Here in Toronto the bus/metro/tram operator has had COVID clusters at a bus garage, and are bleeding money because fare revenue has flatlined and so have announced 1200 layoffs.

GT89 · 25-04-2020 6:45pm

bk wrote: »

Not at all defending the dirty feckers who litter like that. But it terms of health risk, masks littered like this would be a much smaller health risk.

The biggest danger with this virus is it being ejected by a cough/sneeze into the air up to 8 meters on a crowded bus.

A dirty mask on the ground by comparison may have the virus on it's surface, but that is less dangerous then the virus swirling around in the air. As long as the poor person who has to clean the bus takes proper precautions with disinfectant and gloves, it shouldn't pose any greater risk.

Anyway, we aren't talking about disposable masks here. Mostly what is being recommended are reusable and washable cotton masks.

BTW Czech Republic are really showing the case for wearing masks. A few weeks ago they had about the same many cases and deaths as us. They then introduced a law requiring masks. Since then, their number of cases is now a third of ours and their number of deaths is a quarter, despite their population being twice as large as us!

I was reading about Berlin and I believe that the mandatory masks are more of a guideline than an actual requirement. From what I read employees were not enforcing such a policy. I'm not sure was making masks madatory the only reason for that it could have been one of a number of reasons rather than the only one.

Spanish Eyes · 25-04-2020 6:48pm

You'd be terrified of going anywhere but the Supermarket and the Offie.

Get real, the virus is everywhere, it is up to us and the shops that are open to minimise spread.

bk · 25-04-2020 7:22pm

GT89 wrote: »

I was reading about Berlin and I believe that the mandatory masks are more of a guideline than an actual requirement. From what I read employees were not enforcing such a policy. I'm not sure was making masks madatory the only reason for that it could have been one of a number of reasons rather than the only one.

I can't say for Berlin, but in the Czech Republic it is the law and is backed up with hefty fines.

What is even more interesting, those fines aren't really necessary. The public has massively embraced it there and are wearing the masks as a sign of pride, community support and respect. Anyone outside without a mask with at the very least get screamed at and possibly worse.

My company actually has an office in Prague that I work closely with, I noticed a few weeks ago, they all changed their picture on the internal company chat app to a picture of themselves wearing their mask! It has become a massive deal there and a symbol.

If the government here come out and they put the messaging across in the correct manner. That wearing masks is the only way we can ease restrictions and that it shows your support for the medical community fighting this battle. I've no doubt the same would happen here overnight. That most people would be wearing masks within days.

GT89 · 25-04-2020 7:31pm

bk wrote: »

I can't say for Berlin, but in the Czech Republic it is the law and is backed up with hefty fines.

What is even more interesting, those fines aren't really necessary. The public has massively embraced it there and are wearing the masks as a sign of pride, community support and respect. Anyone outside without a mask with at the very least get screamed at and possibly worse.

My company actually has an office in Prague that I work closely with, I noticed a few weeks ago, they all changed their picture on the internal company chat app to a picture of themselves wearing their mask! It has become a massive deal there and a symbol.

If the government here come out and they put the messaging across in the correct manner. That wearing masks is the only way we can ease restrictions and that it shows your support for the medical community fighting this battle. I've no doubt the same would happen here overnight. That most people would be wearing masks within days.

It depends though Dnemark has eased the restrictions as well and it appears masks aren't a requirement there

bk · 25-04-2020 7:46pm

GT89 wrote: »

It depends though Dnemark has eased the restrictions as well and it appears masks aren't a requirement there

And yet we have over twice as many cases and deaths then Denmark, so we might need more stringent approach to beat this.

BTW I just checked Berlin. And yes masks are required on public transport and fines if not worn.

Germany can be a bit confusing as it is a federalist country, sort of like the EU. So while the national government have made masks a requirement, it is up to each 16 states to actually pass a law on it and decide the details of the restrictions and fines.

Obviously that wouldn't be an issue here.

BTW The ECDC, European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, now recommends the use of face masks on public transport.

dublinman1990 · 26-04-2020 2:33am

Anyone wearing face masks on public transport & within non-essential businesses is a great idea to reduce spread of this virus. It should be done when the government gives the green light to it before they ease restrictions that non-essential businesses get approval from to re-open their physical stores once again to the general public. However after hearing tonight that NPHET & The Department of Health are not considering putting any thoughts to these restrictions does make it that to be foreseen very quickly.

I would say that essential workers who use public transport to get work by compelling them to wearing face masks on buses, trains, taxis & on the Luas would be a great starting point for now to minimize further spread of the virus to both public transport staff & passengers. This measure should be announced at any time by our government either before or after the 5th of May. It will give some confidence to the public that this rule is being implemented to the people that are able to use it for the moment that things will be a little bit safer when they use it.

If some non-essential businesses are told to get back open by our government soon; that would be some good news for the public to hear.

But some sections of our population could still lose out for now as some of these upcoming tweaks to the restrictions could be brought in. Older people or people who have underlying health conditions who don't drive cars & solely rely on public transport to get around the country probably will still not be able to use these services at all by the word of the health authorities. They could still be told by them after the 5th of May to continue cocooning in their homes to reduce the spread of the virus.

What I am saying here is that the demand for public transport services won't be that large after the 5th of May. But they will be used by healthy people who do not have symptoms of the virus at the moment if they want to use these services to get out of their homes for a while. But the thing is if they want to have the choice of using a car. That is completely up to them but this is where it becomes tricky. The risk of the virus will still come to people who drive cars because they will have no protection if they are told not to wear a face mask while being in their cars. It cannot be one rule being implemented for one section of the population & one set of rules for the other because the rate of car ownership in this country is still quite high going from official statistics. If some non essential businesses are being asked to re-open by recommendation of NPHET & are requiring people to wear face masks upon to their entry to their stores. People who drive cars & use public transport will have no choice at that point but to wear a face mask when they leave their homes otherwise there could be find themselves in trouble for not wearing one while being outdoors.

Other detailed measures should also be proposed by the NTA after being given approval by NPHET to eliminate the possibility of severe overcrowding on our transport services immediately if the official use of face masks on them to be required by everybody are being brought in soon.

dashcamdanny · 26-04-2020 11:52am

Passenger numbers rising dramatically this weekend. Very noticeable. Saturday and Friday day time buses are filling (to 20 people) on most laps.

Most passenger's unable to understand the yellow DO NOT SIT HERE posters or just dont care.

People are starting to get the center door rule because the see others using it.

Garda waving 99% of buses through in suburbs.
They seem to check the odd bus in high profile areas like O Connell st. They are not doing their jobs IMO.

Night time buses are empty. Literally zero passengers on full laps

I rekon we are in for a further extension of restrictions.

GT89 · 26-04-2020 11:57am

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Passenger numbers rising dramatically this weekend. Very noticeable. Saturday and Friday day time buses are filling (to 20 people) on most laps.

Most passenger's unable to understand the yellow DO NOT SIT HERE posters or just dont care.

People are starting to get the center door rule because the see others using it.

Garda waving 99% of buses through in suburbs.
They seem to check the odd bus in high profile areas like O Connell st. They are not doing their jobs IMO.

Night time buses are empty. Literally zero passengers on full laps

I rekon we are in for a further extension of restrictions.

I think any extension of restrictions is going to be pointless. If people are disobeying them now then they're not going to start obeying them come the 5th May.

dashcamdanny · 26-04-2020 12:05pm

GT89 wrote: »

I think any extension of restrictions is going to be pointless. If people are disobeying them now then they're not going to start obeying them come the 5th May.

Well in fairness, this comes down to the Garda.
They seem to be gathering in groups chatting most of the day, themselves ignoring the social distance restrictions.

Maybe they are getting fed up with the checkpoints.

AlekSmart · 26-04-2020 1:33pm

GT89 wrote: »

It depends though Dnemark has eased the restrictions as well and it appears masks aren't a requirement there

I suppose it's inevitable,having weathered the hysteria concerning Toilet Rolls,Pasta,Flour etc that eventually,someting visible and kind of proffessional would hit the scene.

Over the past 5 weeks and noting how the on-street ballet has developed,I can confidently assert that the average Pedestrian has a FAR greater chance of being knocked down and killed by a vehicle as they (Oh so theatricialy) leap off the footpath to place the golden 2 metre's between themselves and the rest of humanity.

Rarely,if ever have I seen any of these folk look over their shoulder,and even worse,many just make a wild dash TO THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE ROAD as they cling hopefully to their facemask...:o

There is a level of commonsense and realistc compliance which the majority of society is adhering to ,and this level is easily maintained.

Sometimes,as the hysteria gets it's daily booster shot,we yet again fail to go back over the basics....

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/protect-yourself.html

There is very little risk if you are just passing someone. But try to keep a distance of 2 metres as much as possible.

Face masks
Wearing a mask is unlikely to be of any benefit if you are not sick.

As an observation I would suggest that less than 50% of the Facemask wearing I see each day,is of any benefit other than giving a (perhaps) false sense of security and protection.

Some medical folk have taken to print in order to clarify some of the points around the Facemasking 'thing' ...

https://spectator.us/face-masks-work-note-evidence/

To think about this in relation to face masks, you first need to have a handle on just how small viruses are. A human hair is about a 10th of a millimeter thick. A typical bacterium (such as the human pathogens E. coli or S. aureus) comes in at about one thousandth of a millimeter, so you could line a hundred up across the width of a hair. A coronavirus particle is about 10 times smaller still, so a thousand would fit across a hair.

So in relation to viruses, these masks are doing little, except possibly reassuring their wearers.

Even the Medical Grade facemask is not a panacea,particularly when used in the non-medical environment.

The surgical-type face masks, more likely to be used in developed countries, are a bit better. They have pores typically three times larger than the virus particles, rather than the one to five thousand times larger for the cloth masks. Better, but still not good enough to filter out viruses.

I have'nt worn a Facemask,I have no plans to wear a Facemask,unless I am legally compelled to,or am medically advised to.

Equally,I do not expect any of my customers or any other people I encounter during my time outdoors,to wear masks.

By far and away the most relevant piece of information is quoted regularly in media articles...yet convienently appears forgotten...

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0426/1134850-covid-ireland/

Around 80% of cases of Covid-19 will be a mild to moderate illness, close to 14% have severe disease and around 6% are critical.

Generally, you need to be 15 minutes or more in the vicinity of an infected person and within two metres of them, to be considered at-risk, or a close contact.

TLDR...?

Ok then,I'll go with the good Dr John Lee's sign-off..

Coronavirus is not a reason for us to accept arbitrary impositions or abandon our traditions of rational discourse.

...sounds about right.

dfx- · 26-04-2020 9:40pm

I could thank that post several times, Alek. Common sense has been abandoned..

GT89 · 27-04-2020 1:17am

Is the reports of the increases in passenger numbers in recent days actually coming from data from the wayfarers or ancedotal reports from DB?

Midnight_EG · 27-04-2020 1:48am

GT89 wrote: »

Is the reports of the increases in passenger numbers in recent days actually coming from data from the wayfarers or ancedotal reports from DB?

As a driver, its obvious. Going from runs two weeks ago with 0-3 passengers to 'filling' the bus each run now.

punisher5112 · 27-04-2020 4:58am

GT89 wrote: »

Is the reports of the increases in passenger numbers in recent days actually coming from data from the wayfarers or ancedotal reports from DB?

Actual data.... Very easy for management to see this and can report on numbers, that's if one tags on at all.... Still get them where they pretend to scan or not at all.... Some drivers don't even bother hitting pass button either....

john boye · 27-04-2020 8:27am

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Garda waving 99% of buses through in suburbs.
They seem to check the odd bus in high profile areas like O Connell st. They are not doing their jobs IMO.

Are they supposed to be checking who's on the buses? Didn't realise that, if so.

punisher5112 · 27-04-2020 8:28am

john boye wrote: »

Are they supposed to be checking who's on the buses? Didn't realise that, if so.

Yes if they feel necessary, it should have been done more though.... Amount of them on it out for the spin....

bk · 27-04-2020 12:00pm

With respect AlekSmart, but your points on facemasks are misinformed.

There are two general categories of masks:
1) Respirator Masks
2) Surgical face masks

The first type, respirator face masks are designed to protect you from becoming infected. These are the masks that Doctors and nurses are wearing in hospitals to threat patients. They are proven to be EXTREMELY effective at stopping health workers who are exposed to the sickest patients from catching the disease.

The downside of these type of masks is that they are relatively expensive to buy, require careful size fitting and require careful handling. Supplies of such masks are in very limited supply and what supply is there should of course be given to front-line medial staff as a priority.

Now Surgical face masks are designed for a different purpose. They are designed to stop a sick person from passing their infection (flu, SARS, Coronavirus) to another person. They are NOT designed to stop the patient from getting sick.

The first thing that happens for every person who goes to hospital with COVID19 symptoms, they are given a surgical face mask to wear, to stop them from passing it to others in the hospital. Again this has proven highly effective at reducing the spread of the disease, with many studies to back it up.

The reason health authorities around the world have been slow to recommend masks to the general public, is because they actually know they work very well, but unfortunately there is currently a very limited supply of them in the world and they are concerned if the general public start using them, the supplies won't be there for the hospitals.

That is why instead they are recommending home made cotton masks, so people don't use up the limited supplies. Yes cotton masks are less effective, then a surgical mask. But studies have shown that they still greatly reduce the expelling of liquids from your mouth.

Again, the point of these sort of masks is not to protect you directly, but to stop you from spreading it to others. And of course if everyone wears them, then you are protected too, indirectly. You protect me, I protect you.

Both the CDC and ECDC (European equivalent), as well as pretty much every Asian health authority, recommends the wearing of masks outside (CDC) or in public transport/shops (ECDC).

Wear a mask, you protect me, I protect you.

Jamie2k9 · 27-04-2020 12:01pm

CIE tender for masks.

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1254701188706000897

Other news today points towards face masks becoming mandatory in certain situations.

I also feel guards have stepped up checked over the weekend on public transport.

dfx- · 27-04-2020 12:18pm

bk wrote: »

With respect AlekSmart, but your points on facemasks are misinformed.

There are two general categories of masks:
1) Respirator Masks
2) Surgical face masks

Respirator masks work absolutely but they are not relevant for the general public because they are not in enough supply.

Mass mask usage is surgical masks and cloth masks and they are substantially less effective and there hasn't yet been a study to demonstrate efficacy in the general public and not just lab controlled conditions. Even then poor compliance has been found.

A 2020 study said that a majority of people without a face mask found no detectable coronavirus emitted from breath.

bk · 27-04-2020 12:32pm

dfx- wrote: »

Respirator masks work absolutely but they are not relevant for the general public because they are not in enough supply.

Mass mask usage is surgical masks and cloth masks and they are substantially less effective and there hasn't yet been a study to demonstrate efficacy in the general public and not just lab controlled conditions. Even then poor compliance has been found.

A 2020 study said that a majority of people without a face mask found no detectable coronavirus emitted from breath.

Actually most of the latest evidence shows wearing masks greatly reduces the spread of the disease.

First, there is plenty of evidence that wearking masks reduces previous diseases like Flu and SARS:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-masks-science/masks-do-reduce-spread-of-flu-and-some-coronaviruses-study-finds-idUSKBN21L2BW

And now we have increasing evidence based on COVID-19.

Take the example of the city of Jena in Germany that required face mask wearing a few weeks ago. They have had ZERO new cases in the last 8 days, whilst their neighbouring cities that didn't implement this rule have increasing number of cases.

This is actually the major example that has pushed Germany to make it mandatory across the country.

The other example is Czech REpublic versus Austria, frankly the numbers speak for themselves:

GT89 · 27-04-2020 1:17pm

Do staff really need to be wearing masks though or just passengers? I would imagine wearing a mask whilst working wouldn't be the most pleasant especially now the weather is getting warmer. I was under the impression that they weren't designed to be used for long periods and they weren't supposed to be used if they become moist.

If it's just of wearing a mask whilst travelling on public transport or when in a supermarket that might not be so bad but wearing them all day everyday when out at work or outdoors dosen't seem right. I think in Berlin the masks are only mandatory for passengers but optional for staff. The idea being that passengers would be protecting staff by wearing masks/face coverings themselves.

bk · 27-04-2020 1:31pm

GT89 wrote: »

Do staff really need to be wearing masks though or just passengers? I would imagine wearing a mask whilst working wouldn't be the most pleasant especially now the weather is getting warmer. I was under the impression that they weren't designed to be used for long periods and they weren't supposed to be used if they become moist.

If it's just of wearing a mask whilst travelling on public transport or when in a supermarket that might not be so bad but wearing them all day everyday when out at work or outdoors dosen't seem right. I think in Berlin the masks are only mandatory for passengers but optional for staff. The idea being that passengers would be protecting staff by wearing masks/face coverings themselves.

Ideally both. Passengers and staff. After all an infected driver could pass it to the passengers too.

Though it certainly wouldn't be the biggest deal if it was left up to drivers if they can't find suitable masks that are comfortable while driving.

Having said that, there are definitely masks designed for comfortable all day wear. But they may well be hard to get at the moment.

The German approach sounds like it would be reasonable to me.

Amirani · 27-04-2020 1:42pm

bk wrote: »

That is why instead they are recommending home made cotton masks, so people don't use up the limited supplies. Yes cotton masks are less effective, then a surgical mask. But studies have shown that they still greatly reduce the expelling of liquids from your mouth.

There's no conclusive scientific studies showing that the wearing of makeshift masks reduce the transmission of viruses like SARS Cov 2. If there was then there would be something approaching scientific consensus on their use, but we're nowhere near that.

What are these studies that you are referring to?

bk · 27-04-2020 2:19pm

Amirani wrote: »

There's no conclusive scientific studies showing that the wearing of makeshift masks reduce the transmission of viruses like SARS Cov 2. If there was then there would be something approaching scientific consensus on their use, but we're nowhere near that.

What are these studies that you are referring to?

Where are the conclusive studies on hand washing or 2 meters social distancing reduce SARS-Cov-2?

There are no more conclusive studies on these subjects then mask wearing, yet we have all taken those as gospel.

Of course, this is where a lot of the problem comes from. SARS-Cov-2 is a brand new virus that has been with us for only a few months. Because it is so new, almost nothing conclusive can be said about it.

It normally takes the scientific community years to come to a conclusion on a specific topic. It usually requires hundreds of studies and papers and often meta-studies before a general conclusion is come too.

We clearly don't have years, thousands of people are dying every day of this disease, steps need to be taken now, not years from now.

A lot of the studies and research are based on past respiratory diseases, such as Influenza, SARS, MERS, etc. It is assumed that those same studies also applies to SARS-Cov-2, but they can't say "conclusively" and probably can't until years after this pandemic has finally past.

Non-pharmaceutical measures are famously difficult to study and create experiments for. The gold standard for studying new medicines is the double blind test. You divide a group of patients into two and you give half them the new medicine, you give the other half a placebo, they are the control group. You try and keep all other factors the same.

But how do you do an experiment like that for something like wearing face masks across billions of people? Really you can't. There are too many variables. Different types of masks, different materials, some people wearing them more consistently, etc.

Just like we don't really know how effective the hand washing instructions are. Because some people will wash their hands well, others wont, etc. We really don't have any conclusive evidence that hand washing instructions are effective at reducing the spread of SARS-Cov-2

What you will see emerge over the next few weeks and months is high level studies and analysis between neighbouring regions that try different measures. Jena in Germany is a great example as there should be so few other differences with their neighbouring German cities.

The early evidence is already showing facemask wearing to be highly effective in reducing the spread of this virus.

But it will take years of study for this to be conclusive. I just really hope we don't fall into the control group of dumbass countries that didn't apply this measure in these studies.

Coronavirus and the effect on Public transport

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