Brits moot PAY-PER-USE road charges.

netwhizkid · 05-06-2005 2:44pm #1

Hi,
Just seen this on Sky.com/news it seems that our neigbours are mooting pay-per-drive charging rather than the massive petrol tax and road tax. This would quite basically be disastrous for them and if it was introduced there i am in no doubt that if the PDs were in power here at the time (it might come in within 10-15yrs) they would almost basically privatise our roads, this is quite literally capitalism gone mad, we need consensus on this issue now before it is forced down our throats like the Euro and leave a horrible taste in every bodys mouths.

This is what it says on the site as it is rather big to download for non-broadband internet users. Linky here.

Originally posted on sky.com/news

TAX TO CUT CAR CONGESTION

New road charges are being considered to cut congestion on Britain's roads.

Transport Secretary Alastair Darling is considering replacing fuel duty with a new road pricing scheme dependent on the journey distance.

The annual road tax could also be abolished to make way for the new system.

Motorists would pay a set rate per mile which would vary according to the area and time of day.

On current estimates, that could be as mush as £1.34 a mile on the most popular routes but as little as 2p a mile on the quietest rural roads.

"You could dance around this for years, but every year the problem is getting worse," said Mr Darling.

"We have got to do everything we can during the course of this Parliament to decide whether or not we go with road pricing."

Notorious traffic jam routes such as the M25 around London, the M1 in the midlands or the M6 in the north west would be early targets for charges.

The scheme would work by fitting a "black box" to cars and lorries which tracks journeys using a satellite system.

Many are already fitted with GPS navigation and this would be extended.

Present plans are for pilot schemes to be implemented in the next five years but it would be 10-15 years before a national scheme could come into operation.

It is thought that introducing such a system could cut congestion on busy roads by a half and bring economic savings of around £100bn.

This would be a disaster in monumentic terms and is a ploy to shy away from their public-transport responsibilites. Lets hope it won't happen there or if it does our "intelligent" leaders would follow like puppets on a string. I think such a move is a lready in place in germany for truckers on the Auto-bahn.

this will be interesting to see how people react to this.

Regards netwhizkid

Lennoxschips · 05-06-2005 3:14pm

As long as it's fairly priced, I think it's a good idea.

Scrap road tax and have people who drive more pay more and reward people who drive less by letting them pay less. Let's be fair, people who produce tons and tons of rubbish also have to pay extra to the bin men, so people who drive a lot should also pay extra for these services.

In these days of global climate change it's a good solution. Can't see it happening though, the punters would never have it.

The only problem I have with this plan is that they want to scrap petrol tax as well, which would mean that there is no longer an incentive to buy fuel efficient cars. If people are paying mostly for distance and not petrol then they have one less reason not to buy a four wheel drive petrol eater.

So I'd keep petrol tax and change road tax to be based on per mile road use.

the_syco · 05-06-2005 3:27pm

"We know you were @ X on Thursday @ 5:15pm, cos the black box says so".

=-=

Wonder hoiw much extra will the black box cost?
Its great for all you hippie "use public tranport" twats who live in the city, but out in the country, you HAVE to drive, to get anywhere. The school/shops/work maybe 20 miles away, if not more. You may have to go down some costly road to get there.
[/lsit]

TBH, this smells. Its workable in the towns only, cos in the country, the car is not a luxery, its a nessicity.

Victor · 05-06-2005 4:00pm

the_syco wrote:

[*]Wonder hoiw much extra will the black box cost?

Spread over 30m units, probably a reasonable amount.

[*]Its great for all you hippie "use public tranport" twats who live in the city, but out in the country, you HAVE to drive, to get anywhere.

then don't live in the country. Live near where you actually need to be.

The school/shops/work maybe 20 miles away, if not more.

How many people live 20 miles away from a school or shops?

the_syco wrote:

You may have to go down some costly road to get there.
TBH, this smells. Its workable in the towns only, cos in the country, the car is not a luxery, its a nessicity.

But the suggested pricing is 2p/mile for country roads.

the_syco · 05-06-2005 5:52pm

Victor wrote:

Spread over 30m units, probably a reasonable amount.

then don't live in the country. Live near where you actually need to be.
How many people live 20 miles away from a school or shops?

But the suggested pricing is 2p/mile for country roads.

1st point: Proberly right. Hopefully it'll be cheap.
2nd point: I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about farmers, people who live in the country, etc.
3rd point: Works out 15 quid for a year, if your only using the car to bring your kid 2 miles to school.

=-=

Would this rate also apply to taxi's, and/or private bus companies?

Capt'n Midnight · 05-06-2005 6:03pm

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/15/ibm_monitors_uae_drivers/

BM has won a $125m deal with the government of the United Arab Emirates to install tracking devices into tens of thousands of cars by the end of next year.

The four-year deal is believed to be the largest in the telematics sector to date. IBM will equip cars and trucks in the state with a telematics device and global positioning system.

Similar in concept to the 'black boxes' which track the flight paths of aircraft, the devices will monitor drivers' activities and broadcast them to government agencies. The data will be used by the government to monitor traffic habits, as well as by companies to tailor their advertising to the consumer.

AFAIK there were plans afoot in the UK to have either GPS/RFID installed in all new cars in a few years time ( can't remember the full details ) possibly for congestion charging.

On the price of a new car GPS is minimal, - don't forget the €339 in Aldi is the retail price with navigation software and lots of accessories that a built in one run off the cars battery won't need.

Of course it doesn't affect the people well able to afford it and it doesn't penalise people with larger cars/suv's or company cars I'd guess.

SYCO - 3rd point Kids to school - anyone in Dublin will tell you that traffic flows pretty well when the kids aren't at school, for that and safety reasons I'd reckon that a higher rate would/should apply near schools during hours.

Capt'n Midnight · 05-06-2005 6:11pm

Thread on GPS in UAE with side topic of 60mph bell.
http://www.pocketgps.co.uk/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=19355

Has anyone seen the Singapore Road Toll Charging System in operation? Instead of having to ring Mr Livingstone every day, it just gets charged onto your credit card. Perhaps this is the best way of charging for the future? You get charged for driving on motorways, more for peak times, less for at night. That way no-one's rights get infringed, and the government still get their money.

This system would also ensure that those who drive the most miles, get charged the most, those with the biggest engines pay the most tax, (XJ220 no longer seems quite so attractive). Those who do the least mileage, pay the least. One thing I think should be an issue, is the shorter the journey, the more you pay per mile. Chelsea Tractors taking one kid 3 miles to school anyone?

cyclopath2001 · 05-06-2005 6:13pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/15/ibm_monitors_uae_drivers/
AFAIK there were plans afoot in the UK to have either GPS/RFID installed in all new cars in a few years time ( can't remember the full details ) possibly for congestion charging.

Would also be useful in identifying speeding drivers, much more efficiently than speed cameras.

Sarsfield · 05-06-2005 6:37pm

Sounds like a good idea to me. The consumer of scarce resources pays more. Those in quiet rural areas should do a lot better as they travel on the roads with the least demand. It would probably do a lot for rural development as it would be so cheap to drive around on all those 2p roads! Certainly more useful to the people of the west than the WRC!

But I admit I have a teensy concern about privacy. I've nothing to hide(!), and don't drive anyway, but I would hope that the records for a vehicle simply report X-kms @ £1, Y-kms @ 50p etc. I can't imagine the good people of Britain accepting a system that knows everywhere you've been in your car! Then again, the UK has more CCTV than anywhere else in the world doesn't it?

Lennoxschips · 05-06-2005 8:14pm

"We know you were @ X on Thursday @ 5:15pm, cos the black box says so".

I didn't think of this aspect of it. Worrying indeed.

lomb · 05-06-2005 8:21pm

1.34 per mile on motorways will bring the country to its knees. unemployment will increase. the economy needs cheap transport and roads to thrive. all these hippies in government are morons. can u imagine a business driver doing 40000 motorway miles at a cost of 40 grand sterling a year lol, fcuking idiots.....

Nuttzz · 06-06-2005 9:13am

lomb wrote:

1.34 per mile on motorways will bring the country to its knees. unemployment will increase. the economy needs cheap transport and roads to thrive. all these hippies in government are morons. can u imagine a business driver doing 40000 motorway miles at a cost of 40 grand sterling a year lol, fcuking idiots.....

thats it in a nutshell, look at our own experiences with the west link, there is a toll and a traffic jam on it every working morning & evening and yet people still us it. people arent going to give up their cars just because of some extra tax.

dermo88 · 06-06-2005 9:32am

You cannot compare Singapore to the UK. One is an island state with a hyperefficient public transport system with fares set at a fraction of the TFL level. This idea really only works in conurbations/cities with populations >1,000,000. It does not work at all down in the likes of the South West of England or Scotland, where population densities are miniscule.

I wouold argue that car use should be subsidised in these regions, and in th congested areas taxed to the hilt.

lomb · 06-06-2005 9:59am

dermo88 wrote:

I wouold argue that car use should be subsidised in these regions, and in th congested areas taxed to the hilt.

even if it means u loose ur job as a hypothetical salesman in the southeast because your company cant pay the 20+grand 'tax' on the roads that everyone has already paid for, lol.

gjim · 06-06-2005 11:49am

even if it means u loose ur job as a hypothetical salesman in the southeast because your company cant pay the 20+grand 'tax' on the roads that everyone has already paid for, lol.

Bull. How has "everyone already paid for" the road network? The govenment is pouring billions into roads both building new roads and maintaining and upgrading existing ones. Everyone (especially income tax payers) are paying for this massive expediture on roads on an ongoing basis whether they use them or not.

lomb · 06-06-2005 12:31pm

gjim wrote:

Bull. How has "everyone already paid for" the road network? The govenment is pouring billions into roads both building new roads and maintaining and upgrading existing ones. Everyone (especially income tax payers) are paying for this massive expediture on roads on an ongoing basis whether they use them or not.

i dont think its bull at all man. i know how congestion charging in london has affected businesses. they will hapily bring a country to its knees while china produces goods at a fraction of the cost, with no red tape and all the while raping the environment. every country has to compete and paying even 15 or 20 grand tax a year to use a car is nonsense. if the population of a country is not increasing whats the problem why are there projected to be double the numbers of cars on the road.

its all codswallop, and there will b mass protests, its politically just not viable. any government that allowed such charging to take place will be out of power in 5 minutes. its semi worked in london because the masses already took the excellent public transport system so there werent any protests. to introduce the type of charging they are talking about will if it happened affect everyone and no one can afford 15 grand of road tax when the average industrial income is 20 ish grand.

and the biggest cost of roads is their building. maintainence takes up probably 5% of their build value to maintain and we pay for that anyway thru other taxes in addition to car taxes.

aphex™ · 06-06-2005 12:37pm

They already have a pay-per-drive system. It's called Petrol Duty. The further you go, the more you pay. Simple.

As for the GPS, i'm sure a little tinfoil over the aerial will stop the signals. Not long before people cop on to that one.

EDIT: Also, isn't it mad that Blair didn't mention this in his election manifesto only a few weeks ago? Just more proof he is engaging in Bush-style politics.

Victor · 06-06-2005 5:40pm

lomb wrote:

1.34 per mile on motorways will bring the country to its knees. unemployment will increase. the economy needs cheap transport and roads to thrive. all these hippies in government are morons. can u imagine a business driver doing 40000 motorway miles at a cost of 40 grand sterling a year lol, fcuking idiots.....

Only if you seek out 40,000 miles of the most congested roads in the country. Your salesman racking up 40,000 (average 182 miles per working day) is doing medium to long journies on uncongested roads, not in the middle of cities.

cyclopath2001 · 06-06-2005 7:05pm

aphex&#8482 wrote:

As for the GPS, i'm sure a little tinfoil over the aerial will stop the signals. Not long before people cop on to that one.

Until you get to a control barrier that won't lift unless the GPS is active....or you get a ban after a random check for 'foiling' the system.

Calina · 07-06-2005 11:42am

hmm...and for tourists? Do they get charged or is it a free ride for them? Don't remember any of the news channels mentioning that one...

jman0 · 07-06-2005 12:33pm

Calina wrote:

hmm...and for tourists? Do they get charged or is it a free ride for them? Don't remember any of the news channels mentioning that one...

We want tourists, so let the business that owns the rental cars pay for the road usage. If they decide to stick it to the tourists, it's their own business.

Calina · 07-06-2005 1:21pm

jman0 wrote:

We want tourists, so let the business that owns the rental cars pay for the road usage. If they decide to stick it to the tourists, it's their own business.

Not all tourists hire cars.

Nietzschean · 07-06-2005 1:30pm

Calina wrote:

Not all tourists hire cars.

in the uk/ireland car hire based tourism is a massive part of it, and it was mention'd on the bbc news website as such. It could criple tourism on the coasts if it costs too much to get out there.

But as has been pointed out before, with the scrapping of petrol tax, for alot of people this could work out the same if not cheaper. And as for truckers, lack of tax on their fuel will make a massive difference, and also they tend to travel at night anyway, this will just increase the trend..

Capt'n Midnight · 07-06-2005 1:37pm

Never mind the tourists, what about the cars form the Baltic states ?

One way would be to have a free dated sticker for cars obtainable at port of entry (or from embassy) once they check on the dB that you haven't just popped across the border to reset the clock.

Then a car with foreign plates with no sticker or one older than six months could be clamped/lifted.

Or just cut out the middle man and just have us all RFID tagged.

Victor · 07-06-2005 7:52pm

Calina wrote:

hmm...and for tourists? Do they get charged or is it a free ride for them? Don't remember any of the news channels mentioning that one...

Germany's truck tax applies to all trucks (over 12t) passing through Germany. Aren't Austria's motorway "tolls" monthly passcards or something similar? It can be done.

The exact manifestation of the British system would need to take tourists into account, but especially the way radial routes from London to the coast become carparks on sunny weekends.

lomb · 07-06-2005 7:55pm

it would be laughable if they introduced it and drove the economy into a deep recession which it probably would do. everything in the uk is an experiment and when it doesnt work they experiment some more.

cyclopath2001 · 07-06-2005 10:09pm

lomb wrote:

everything in the uk is an experiment and when it doesnt work they experiment some more.

The 'status-quo' is an experiment too & it's not working very well.

lomb · 08-06-2005 11:08am

cyclopath2001 wrote:

The 'status-quo' is an experiment too & it's not working very well.

looks ok to me, need a few more roads etc. britains population isnt increasing. mayb a slightly higer petrol tax like another 25pence per liter bringing it to 1.05p stg, that should do it, and if not increase it to 1.30 and BUILD NEW ROADS WITH THE MONEY.

Zaph0d · 08-06-2005 11:33am

lomb wrote:

looks ok to me, need a few more roads etc. britains population isnt increasing. mayb a slightly higer petrol tax like another 25pence per liter bringing it to 1.05p stg, that should do it, and if not increase it to 1.30 and

higher petrol tax penalises city mileage at the same rate as rural mileage. Yet rural motoring imposes lower external costs on society. So this is a crude approach. GPS tolling allows charges set for given roads, times of the day, congestion levels etc.

BUILD NEW ROADS WITH THE MONEY.

Where should new roads be built? 40% of a modern city's land area is already devoted to roads and parking. Would life be better if this figure was 60%?

Capt'n Midnight · 08-06-2005 1:32pm

Zaph0d wrote:

Where should new roads be built? 40% of a modern city's land area is already devoted to roads and parking. Would life be better if this figure was 60%?

In places like LA they already have 1/3 for roads, 1/3 for Parking and 1/3 for everything else.. so 67% is closer to actuality across the pond.

lomb · 08-06-2005 3:19pm

Zaph0d wrote:

40% of a modern city's land area is already devoted to roads and parking. Would life be better if this figure was 60%?

yes , and compulsory purchase orders are the way to do it.

gjim · 08-06-2005 9:50pm

it would be laughable if they introduced it and drove the economy into a deep recession

Sorry but that's more bull. How much of the Irish economy is dependent on travelling salesmen (salespeople?) or truck haulage? I'd be surprised if it was even 5%. The money for roads has to come from somewhere and I don't see why it shouldn't come from those who benefit from roads.

cyclopath2001 · 08-06-2005 10:37pm

lomb wrote:

increase it to 1.30 and BUILD NEW ROADS WITH THE MONEY.

Or maybe try to use the existing roads more efficiently?

Lennoxschips · 08-06-2005 11:19pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

In places like LA they already have 1/3 for roads, 1/3 for Parking and 1/3 for everything else.. so 67% is closer to actuality across the pond.

Gimme Paris over LA anyday.

dermo88 · 09-06-2005 4:00am

I am completely against this purely on principle. It is an insidious and underhand form of taxation.

The British have run out of cute hoor ways of taxing cigarettes out of existence, beer out of existence, public transport fares are sky high, council tax is sky high, and its impossible to raise income tax without causing an outcry.

The Brits have'nt a clue how to tell their government to take a running jump. Fortunately in Ireland, we still have an ability to do that.

I would be all for road usage payments in the likes of cities and conurbations such as Manchester, Liverpool, London, Leeds, Birmingham/West Midlands, Glasgow, Newcastle, Sheffield, where you park your car on the outskirts, and get a train into town. There are quite a few places in the UK where people can live without a car.

But please consider the likes of people living in Cornwall, Wales, Scotland. Public transport there is sparse. I would argue penalise the hell out of motorists in the likes of areas where there is a viable alternative, Singaporean style. Have a COE scheme instead for these areas (Certificate of Entitlement), and that COE becomes tied to the particular address NOT to the car. Otherwise you'll have a Dubliner registering their car at their Grannys address in Wexford. The COE coupled with a road user charge would reduce congestion enormously. However, for the likes of low populated and isolated regions, I would argue that should be subsidised to reduce isolation.

I am deeply concerned with this move from a personal freedom point of view. I am for a National ID card, since it will enable the UK and Ireland to fully participate with the Schengen agreement, and the fact that neither country has one has prevented us from taking part to date.

I am deeply concerned that the Government must be running out of ways to raise money over here, and are looking to target the most screwed bunch of all....the motorist. And they are extremely suspicious. And rightly so.

Because if they can get away with this, what next?

I am not joking when I seriously believe that if the UK Government could tax a vagrants cardboard box, they would serve it with a summons for not paying council tax. At least, despite Irelands higher cost of living, we are a little bit more humanitarian when it comes to taxation.

Road users pay of the order of 500% more to the government than they get back. I would be happy of a fraction of that went back into the railways, but NO......not here.

The Government is like a packet of condoms, It protects a bunch of pricks, and keeps you safe while your being screwed.

It just reminds me of what I warned my mates in Ireland pre smoking ban, and we were having a few pints, and I was merrily sucking a John Player Blue.

"It might be a month to go before it happens, but you like your booze as much as I like my fags"

"Yeah" *(Confused frown)

"Well guys, remember where you heard it first, within 2 years I predict Norwegian style alcohol prices and excise duties. They can't touch us smokers anymore, so lads......your next"

Spare me this bollox about the common good either. Thats rubbish. Or environmental issues. Its just another cute hoor window dressed way of saying I am going to financially rape you, but you are making me smile while you do it. Your just using KY Jelly to soothe me and butter me up instead of spit and shove.

Just remember, Tony Blair is Maggie with a smile. Maggie Thatcher was'nt liked by a lot of people because she called a spade a spade. Tony Blair is sweetness and light on the outside, but hes Palapatine through and through (apologies to those who have not seen Star Wars)

Brits moot PAY-PER-USE road charges.

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