Course Management

kippy · 29-06-2019 1:26am

GolfNut33 wrote: »

This topic really gets me going.

I would consider myself fairly decent at course management but the amount of lads I see making horrendous decisions on the course is incredible. For example; I was playing along side a 18 HC last Sunday. Playing a longish par 4 (think 410 yrds) slightly uphill with a pond in front of the green. He hit a poor enough drive and he had about 200 yrds to the green and about 180 to carry the water. He took out a 3 wood and proceeded to plonk it straight in to the drink. I would have guessed it was a 1 in 20 shot to get it on the green. He proceeded to scratch the hole. A simple lay up would have almost ensured he'd get maybe 2 points but at least 1.

I have multiple examples of this kinda of thing, even know a low HC lad who is equally as bad at plotting his way around the course, goes for every Par 5 in two and goes for every pin no matter where it is and only to miss out on wining sometimes by a few points/strokes and wonders why he can never get over the finish line.

Golfers spend huge money on equipment and lessons to gain a shot or two improvement but neglect possibly the easiest way to improve their score through course management.

Thats all well and good lad, but there are plenty "golfers" who get out on the rare occassion and who are still learning those lessons and learning about golf as they play. The social golfer who simply cannot commit the time needed to improve at the levels that some who play and practice often can.
Each to their own, some folks are happy to get out and enjoy the company/peace without being too worried about the prizes if worried at all.

Mantis Toboggan · 29-06-2019 9:19am

kippy wrote: »

Thats all well and good lad, but there are plenty "golfers" who get out on the rare occassion and who are still learning those lessons and learning about golf as they play. The social golfer who simply cannot commit the time needed to improve at the levels that some who play and practice often can.
Each to their own, some folks are happy to get out and enjoy the company/peace without being too worried about the prizes if worried at all.

Ok but if you don't have time to practice and you're looking to improve then surely the quickest way to improve would be through better course management. Bit of strategy and stop going for the hero shot definitely improved me.

megabomberman · 29-06-2019 10:10am

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Ok but if you don't have time to practice and you're looking to improve then surely the quickest way to improve would be through better course management. Bit of strategy and stop going for the hero shot definitely improved me.

Exactly, any high handicapper who has played a fourball next to an experienced golfer who helps them pick their way around a course knows that course management can reap instant rewards. Hundreds of reps on the range not required.

GreeBo · 29-06-2019 11:02am

kippy wrote: »

Thats all well and good lad, but there are plenty "golfers" who get out on the rare occassion and who are still learning those lessons and learning about golf as they play. The social golfer who simply cannot commit the time needed to improve at the levels that some who play and practice often can.
Each to their own, some folks are happy to get out and enjoy the company/peace without being too worried about the prizes if worried at all.

Arguably the worse you are the more important good course management is.

Sure it can be more fun to just go for everything, but it rarely results in a good score for 18 holes and returning a cricket score is just not fun, at least not for me!

kippy · 29-06-2019 11:24am

GreeBo wrote: »

Arguably the worse you are the more important good course management is.

Sure it can be more fun to just go for everything, but it rarely results in a good score for 18 holes and returning a cricket score is just not fun, at least not for me!

Course management only works when you are comfortable with knowing your distances and being comfortable cycling through your clubs and being confident of getting a clean hit on the ball in the right direction. Those all come with practice, lots of practice......

megabomberman · 29-06-2019 11:50am

kippy wrote: »

Course management only works when you are comfortable with knowing your distances and being comfortable cycling through your clubs and being confident of getting a clean hit on the ball in the right direction. Those all come with practice, lots of practice......

Course management isn't just for tour pros. Do think that an 18 handicapper would score better on average with Steve Williams selecting their club and shots or a complete novice?

Mantis Toboggan · 29-06-2019 12:57pm

Watched a good video this morning on YouTube, OMP was on golf vlogs. The episode was about breaking 90 easily by taking all the trouble out. OMP is 78 and his drives go no more than 160 metres. Would apply more to high handicappers but it shows that with a little bit of thought it makes the game that bit easier.

The Tetrarch · 29-06-2019 6:44pm

I don't play now but decades ago when I was in my teens we played a links course in the west of Ireland every day of our month long holiday there.
For a few years my uncle, handicap 5, holidayed there.
With the balls and equipment in those days a 200 yard drive was better than average.
I remember he always played a 400 yard par 4 with an easy driver off the tee, a 4 iron to about fifty yards in front of the green, then a short iron to at most ten feet from the pin. He always scored 4 or 5.
The rest of us sliced into the rough, hacked our way down the hole, and scored 6, 7, or 8.
After a while you absorbed his thinking, assessing the situation from where you were, planning the shots.

Golfhead65 · 29-06-2019 7:58pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Watched a good video this morning on YouTube, OMP was on golf vlogs. The episode was about breaking 90 easily by taking all the trouble out. OMP is 78 and his drives go no more than 160 metres. Would apply more to high handicappers but it shows that with a little bit of thought it makes the game that bit easier.

Brilliant videos, I'm subscribed to Golf blogs uk and omp is originally from Ireland and played off 2 back in the day and in an interview he said that Newlands is his favourite all time course

kippy · 29-06-2019 9:00pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I don't play now but decades ago when I was in my teens we played a links course in the west of Ireland every day of our month long holiday there.
For a few years my uncle, handicap 5, holidayed there.
With the balls and equipment in those days a 200 yard drive was better than average.
I remember he always played a 400 yard par 4 with an easy driver off the tee, a 4 iron to about fifty yards in front of the green, then a short iron to at most ten feet from the pin. He always scored 4 or 5.
The rest of us sliced into the rough, hacked our way down the hole, and scored 6, 7, or 8.
After a while you absorbed his thinking, assessing the situation from where you were, planning the shots.

Is that course management or being able to hit the ball well?

GreeBo · 30-06-2019 3:00am

kippy wrote: »

Course management only works when you are comfortable with knowing your distances and being comfortable cycling through your clubs and being confident of getting a clean hit on the ball in the right direction. Those all come with practice, lots of practice......

You don't need to have that detail to have good course management, it just makes it easier to score better.
You also don't need to have a clean hit... course management is independent of that.
In fact it's there to give you a better chance of shooting your best score when you are playing badly.

Seve OB · 01-07-2019 10:43am

played a game the other day, par 5, I got a good drive away and left myself about 215 to the pin, bunkers short and right of a small green, pin tucked away . clever shot was to lay up short of the bunkers about 70 yards out and chip in from there.
so I took out a 4 iron and went for it. stuck it to 12 foot. missed the eagle by an inch but a tap in birdie.
some of you guys would have had me playing course management shots where I would have been lucky to make par and bringing bogey into play. by taking on the shot I was not making things any worse for myself, sure I could have ended up in a bunker, but isn't that what a sand wedge is for

TitianGerm · 01-07-2019 10:46am

Seve OB wrote: »

played a game the other day, par 5, I got a good drive away and left myself about 215 to the pin, bunkers short and right of a small green, pin tucked away . clever shot was to lay up short of the bunkers about 70 yards out and chip in from there.
so I took out a 4 iron and went for it. stuck it to 12 foot. missed the eagle by an inch but a tap in birdie.
some of you guys would have had me playing course management shots where I would have been lucky to make par and bringing bogey into play. by taking on the shot I was not making things any worse for myself, sure I could have ended up in a bunker, but isn't that what a sand wedge is for

What do you play off though?

Seve OB · 01-07-2019 10:59am

TitianGerm wrote: »

What do you play off though?

12

Mantis Toboggan · 01-07-2019 11:08am

Seve OB wrote: »

12

Thread is more aimed at the high handicappers who are struggling to lower their handicap. That 215 yard shot they might only hit the green 1 time out of 10 and the other times land them in all sorts of trouble and walk off with double bogey.

TitianGerm · 01-07-2019 11:16am

Seve OB wrote: »

12

I'd expect a 12 handicapper to be much more consistent in their shots than someone off 18 though. The correct shot for you may very well have been to go for the green in two especially if you've no shot there.

Now the 18 player my not be able to hit a 4 iron 210 and will have to hit a 5/3 wood. This makes the shot a bit harder. The correct shot for the higher player, especially if they are not confident in the club/distance, is to lay up to 100 and take the bunkers out of play. Up and down from there will give them 4 points or on and two puts will give them 3 points.

If they go for it with the 3 wood then they may catch the bunker and then will be giving themselves a tougher shot to get up and down for their birdie than if they were in the middle of the fairway.

I hit my 4 iron no more than 170. If it was me I'd hit the 100 as my bad shot is to leak the ball to the right (can be a slice but have almost gotten rid of that now). I'm fairly confident of hitting the ball within 10 feet from that distance and would be very confident of not having more than two putts from there.

If there's no trouble to the left of the green I may hit the 3 wood up there depending on pin position and how much green I have to work with when chipping.

Keano · 01-07-2019 11:35am

Seve OB wrote: »

played a game the other day, par 5, I got a good drive away and left myself about 215 to the pin, bunkers short and right of a small green, pin tucked away . clever shot was to lay up short of the bunkers about 70 yards out and chip in from there.
so I took out a 4 iron and went for it. stuck it to 12 foot. missed the eagle by an inch but a tap in birdie.
some of you guys would have had me playing course management shots where I would have been lucky to make par and bringing bogey into play. by taking on the shot I was not making things any worse for myself, sure I could have ended up in a bunker, but isn't that what a sand wedge is for

That's only one hole though

How was the rest of the round?

pakman · 01-07-2019 12:00pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Thread is more aimed at the high handicappers who are struggling to lower their handicap. That 215 yard shot they might only hit the green 1 time out of 10 and the other times land them in all sorts of trouble and walk off with double bogey.

I had this exact situation in Captains Prize yesterday in Kilcock. Out with a new driver and hit one 290 with strong wind behind on par 5 5th. Had 210 to hole with tree in middle and water on left.

Thinking about course management I layed up but hit it too well and got in trouble. chipped over water into far bunker, two out of the bunker with second going back into the £$%ing water. chip back from where i started and ended with a 10 to end any chances and due to bad course management when I thought I was being conservative. Should have gone wedge wedge but took an 8 after seeing the great drive and wanting to build on it. It was still the right call not to go for the 210 yard shot though.

This kind of thing went on to happen all round with new driver giving me distance I'd never had before. Played a whole different course as a result and didn't know what I was doing. Suddenly hitting half shots rather than full which I am awful at. Some short and some long with no confidence standing over the ball.

If I had been smart I would have stopped and taken 7 iron and wedge instead of hitting a 5 and then trying to finesse it. That way I would have had full shots and been in places I was familiar with on the course.

For me course management is just finding your way around where you have a club in your hand you know you can hit and in places that are safe enough. I've only really started doing it recently and dropped 3.6 shots in past two months almost completely due to it. It also the thing that kills my boards performances the most too as I don't take time to read the course. That and I am cr*p a lot of the time

DuckSlice · 01-07-2019 12:23pm

pakman wrote: »

I had this exact situation in Captains Prize yesterday in Kilcock. Out with a new driver and hit one 290 with strong wind behind on par 5 5th. Had 210 to hole with tree in middle and water on left.

Thinking about course management I layed up but hit it too well and got in trouble. chipped over water into far bunker, two out of the bunker with second going back into the £$%ing water. chip back from where i started and ended with a 10 to end any chances and due to bad course management when I thought I was being conservative. Should have gone wedge wedge but took an 8 after seeing the great drive and wanting to build on it. It was still the right call not to go for the 210 yard shot though.

This kind of thing went on to happen all round with new driver giving me distance I'd never had before. Played a whole different course as a result and didn't know what I was doing. Suddenly hitting half shots rather than full which I am awful at. Some short and some long with no confidence standing over the ball.

If I had been smart I would have stopped and taken 7 iron and wedge instead of hitting a 5 and then trying to finesse it. That way I would have had full shots and been in places I was familiar with on the course.

For me course management is just finding your way around where you have a club in your hand you know you can hit and in places that are safe enough. I've only really started doing it recently and dropped 3.6 shots in past two months almost completely due to it. It also the thing that kills my boards performances the most too as I don't take time to read the course. That and I am cr*p a lot of the time

How can you say it was the right call not too go for the shot? You didn't go for it and had a disaster, would you have been much worse if you went for it?

edit - off topic, which driver did you go for?

Mantis Toboggan · 01-07-2019 1:17pm

pakman wrote: »

I had this exact situation in Captains Prize yesterday in Kilcock. Out with a new driver and hit one 290 with strong wind behind on par 5 5th. Had 210 to hole with tree in middle and water on left.

Thinking about course management I layed up but hit it too well and got in trouble. chipped over water into far bunker, two out of the bunker with second going back into the £$%ing water. chip back from where i started and ended with a 10 to end any chances and due to bad course management when I thought I was being conservative. Should have gone wedge wedge but took an 8 after seeing the great drive and wanting to build on it. It was still the right call not to go for the 210 yard shot though.

This kind of thing went on to happen all round with new driver giving me distance I'd never had before. Played a whole different course as a result and didn't know what I was doing. Suddenly hitting half shots rather than full which I am awful at. Some short and some long with no confidence standing over the ball.

If I had been smart I would have stopped and taken 7 iron and wedge instead of hitting a 5 and then trying to finesse it. That way I would have had full shots and been in places I was familiar with on the course.

For me course management is just finding your way around where you have a club in your hand you know you can hit and in places that are safe enough. I've only really started doing it recently and dropped 3.6 shots in past two months almost completely due to it. It also the thing that kills my boards performances the most too as I don't take time to read the course. That and I am cr*p a lot of the time

Yeah laying up was probably the right choice here if you didn't think you could hit the green more often than not. laying up will still give you 2 putts for 3 points. laying up should also in theory get you closer to the flag. This strategy over the season will reward you more until you get confident of finding your target from 215.

Here's the problem with laying up though which you encountered the weekend. It's a harder shot than it looks, firstly people get too casual and don't concentrate as much as a normal shot and secondly, like you after a good drive it kills them to not go for it so they end up being greedy and try to lay up as close to the hazard as possible to eek out every yard, generally the wrong club gets picked and a couple of bad bounces later it's in the drink and then you're cursing yourself for not going for it. Happens us all.

pakman · 01-07-2019 2:14pm

etxp wrote: »

How can you say it was the right call not too go for the shot? You didn't go for it and had a disaster, would you have been much worse if you went for it?

I had a disaster because I did bad course management. I decided to play conservative but didn't think about it all and chose an 8 iron when a wedge would have done.

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Here's the problem with laying up though which you encountered the weekend. It's a harder shot than it looks, firstly people get too casual and don't concentrate as much as a normal shot and secondly, like you after a good drive it kills them to not go for it so they end up being greedy and try to lay up as close to the hazard as possible to eek out every yard, generally the wrong club gets picked and a couple of bad bounces later it's in the drink and then you're cursing yourself for not going for it. Happens us all.

This describes it perfectly. Just wanted to be further up than everyone else after out driving them. stupid stuff

etxp wrote: »

edit - off topic, which driver did you go for?

Fitting had me go from my regular shaft 10.5 Ping G20 to something with stiff shaft and lower loft. I ended up getting a second hand Titleist D3915 and I love it so far. Long drawing shots that are 20-30 further than old club and way lower trajectory. I've only played two rounds with it though.

I was reluctant to go for fitting but it was well worth the money. besides the club change he could see my outside to in swing was gone and pointed out face control was my really issue when I sliced it occasionally. Weak right hand was probably the culprit.

Seve OB · 01-07-2019 3:13pm

Keano wrote: »

That's only one hole though How was the rest of the round?

lets not get into that now but suffice it to say I need to take the positives out of my game at the moment.

GreeBo · 01-07-2019 3:29pm

pakman wrote: »

I had this exact situation in Captains Prize yesterday in Kilcock. Out with a new driver and hit one 290 with strong wind behind on par 5 5th. Had 210 to hole with tree in middle and water on left.

Thinking about course management I layed up but hit it too well and got in trouble. chipped over water into far bunker, two out of the bunker with second going back into the £$%ing water. chip back from where i started and ended with a 10 to end any chances and due to bad course management when I thought I was being conservative. Should have gone wedge wedge but took an 8 after seeing the great drive and wanting to build on it. It was still the right call not to go for the 210 yard shot though.

This kind of thing went on to happen all round with new driver giving me distance I'd never had before. Played a whole different course as a result and didn't know what I was doing. Suddenly hitting half shots rather than full which I am awful at. Some short and some long with no confidence standing over the ball.

If I had been smart I would have stopped and taken 7 iron and wedge instead of hitting a 5 and then trying to finesse it. That way I would have had full shots and been in places I was familiar with on the course.

For me course management is just finding your way around where you have a club in your hand you know you can hit and in places that are safe enough. I've only really started doing it recently and dropped 3.6 shots in past two months almost completely due to it. It also the thing that kills my boards performances the most too as I don't take time to read the course. That and I am cr*p a lot of the time

The thing you did wrong was hitting the driver.
No point in hitting the driver if you are then going to hit a wedge to layup!

Seve OB · 01-07-2019 3:37pm

TitianGerm wrote: »

I'd expect a 12 handicapper to be much more consistent in their shots than someone off 18 though. The correct shot for you may very well have been to go for the green in two especially if you've no shot there.

Now the 18 player my not be able to hit a 4 iron 210 and will have to hit a 5/3 wood. This makes the shot a bit harder. The correct shot for the higher player, especially if they are not confident in the club/distance, is to lay up to 100 and take the bunkers out of play. Up and down from there will give them 4 points or on and two puts will give them 3 points.

If they go for it with the 3 wood then they may catch the bunker and then will be giving themselves a tougher shot to get up and down for their birdie than if they were in the middle of the fairway.

I hit my 4 iron no more than 170. If it was me I'd hit the 100 as my bad shot is to leak the ball to the right (can be a slice but have almost gotten rid of that now). I'm fairly confident of hitting the ball within 10 feet from that distance and would be very confident of not having more than two putts from there.

If there's no trouble to the left of the green I may hit the 3 wood up there depending on pin position and how much green I have to work with when chipping.

firstly I had a shot, to be honest I think that is irrelevant but that's another discussion. my point really was though that going for it I could have ended up in a bunker. but if I had of laid up, I still could have found a bunker with my third shot. laying up is not always all its made out to be. sure if you don't have the range to make the distance, then you just have to lay up, but that's a different scenario.

its all well saying the 18 handicapper should lay up to 100 yards and chip on make 2 putts...…. but they are an 18 handicapper, they probably don't have the game to always get the 100 yard shot to finish on the green and always make the 2 putts. an 18 handicapper could very easily take 5+ shots to get down from that range. hell knows I've done it often enough

no risk, no reward, if you want to score well, you just have to take some shots on sometimes.

oh yea and the podcast is called "no laying up"

TitianGerm · 01-07-2019 3:42pm

Seve OB wrote: »

firstly I had a shot, to be honest I think that is irrelevant but that's another discussion. my point really was though that going for it I could have ended up in a bunker. but if I had of laid up, I still could have found a bunker with my third shot. laying up is not always all its made out to be. sure if you don't have the range to make the distance, then you just have to lay up, but that's a different scenario.

its all well saying the 18 handicapper should lay up to 100 yards and chip on make 2 putts...…. but they are an 18 handicapper, they probably don't have the game to always get the 100 yard shot to finish on the green and always make the 2 putts. an 18 handicapper could very easily take 5+ shots to get down from that range. hell knows I've done it often enough

no risk, no reward, if you want to score well, you just have to take some shots on sometimes.

oh yea and the podcast is called "no laying up"

I'd bet the vast majority of high handicappers would have more trouble out of the bunker than from the fairway at 100 yards.

I agree on taking shots on. But there's a time and place for that, i.e holes that you are confident on.

DuckSlice · 01-07-2019 3:53pm

TitianGerm wrote: »

I'd bet the vast majority of high handicappers would have more trouble out of the bunker than from the fairway at 100 yards.

I agree on taking shots on. But there's a time and place for that, i.e holes that you are confident on.

but if they never go in the bunkers they wont get better at playing out of them :eek:

pakman · 01-07-2019 4:04pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The thing you did wrong was hitting the driver.
No point in hitting the driver if you are then going to hit a wedge to layup!

True. Before this weekend though I was driver, 7 iron, and wedge on that hole. The wind and new driver just took 50 yards off the hole for me. The whole round was that way.

Seve OB · 01-07-2019 4:06pm

just before anyone thinks that I advocate going for everything all the time and don't believe in course management...…..

playing medal on Saturday I had two course management decisions to make.

first one I knew what I was doing was in theory wrong but I didn't care. my score was already in tatters. 18th hole found myself just left of fairway in trees, not thick ones or anything, I did have a view through them to the green but they were in my way enough that I was going to have to execute the shot near perfectly. I needed a birdie to make the buffer so it was worth taking the shot on as par was probably not going to be enough, and playing a conservative chip back to the fairway was not going to guarantee me par anyway. I was punching 3 iron to keep it low, caught a branch on my back swing (I knew it was there and it could affect my swing) and although my ball strike was ok, it did enough to throw me offline by about a foot and I hit a tree square on and ball kicked left into cabbage.

Now course management on any other day with a half decent score going (or indeed in the first few holes) I would have been knocking it back to the fairway and looking for 5. as it was, I think I made the correct course management decision for the situation I faced.

the second scenario was where the ball ended up in the cabbage. I foolishly tried to hit a wedge back to the fairway, but I was just to quick in deciding on the shot to play. As soon as I struck it I realised I should have gone back to previous position and replayed under penalty. it took me 3 shots to get out of the cabbage and to be honest I was lucky it was only 3. No matter what score I had going, the only clever move here was to take penalty drop. This is new rough, never seen before, an area that used to be a good miss and have an approach to the green from regular rough. I think this caused me not to actually think about the shot first because I'm normally quite good at taking a drop when in an unplayable lie position.

BoardsMember · 01-07-2019 4:18pm

Last time I played Druids Glen, the 13th hole kind of sums it up for me.

I went for a big power fade off the tee, it just stayed in play and chased up towards end of fairway. Hit a power fade 4 iron that was over water most of the way, drifted off the water and towards the flag at the end, landed softly, finishing pin high 20 feet. I sank the putt for a birdie.

Every other time I have played that hole I have played it the same way. I have probably scored on it maybe two other times out of 6 or 7 times playing it. So awful course management but one serious highlight. Some people just want to go for the 1 in 20 shots I suppose. It's not necessarily ignorant, it can be an active choice to go for the champagne shot.

That said, some of the stuff higher handicappers go for, the "completely and utterly impossible even from a pro" type shots are harder to explain. They can be amsuing though.

It's really what you want out of the game. I'll always remember my birdie. But I'll never be as low a handicap as I should be. My handicap record used to show 2 or 3 low rounds per year max, with the rest in the 20 point region. My way of playing was hampering marginal gains, or more consistent scoring. Maybe that is why I gave the game up....

Seve OB · 01-07-2019 4:33pm

BoardsMember wrote: »

Last time I played Druids Glen, the 13th hole kind of sums it up for me.

I went for a big power fade off the tee, it just stayed in play and chased up towards end of fairway. Hit a power fade 4 iron that was over water most of the way, drifted off the water and towards the flag at the end, landed softly, finishing pin high 20 feet. I sank the putt for a birdie.

Every other time I have played that hole I have played it the same way. I have probably scored on it maybe two other times out of 6 or 7 times playing it. So awful course management but one serious highlight. Some people just want to go for the 1 in 20 shots I suppose. It's not necessarily ignorant, it can be an active choice to go for the champagne shot.

That said, some of the stuff higher handicappers go for, the "completely and utterly impossible even from a pro" type shots are harder to explain. They can be amsuing though.

It's really what you want out of the game. I'll always remember my birdie. But I'll never be as low a handicap as I should be. My handicap record used to show 2 or 3 low rounds per year max, with the rest in the 20 point region. My way of playing was hampering marginal gains, or more consistent scoring. Maybe that is why I gave the game up....

so for the 13th in Druids if you are taking on the water and it's a 1 in 20 shot to make the green, good course management will look at where the miss is. IE. make sure you aim to the right hand side of the green, plenty of room short along that line and you may end up half way up the hill, but ball should be in play still. noting wrong with that course management IMO.

Course Management

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