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Do we pay too much tax for crappy services?

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    #122
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    60 billion interest on our(?) National debt is hardly causing issues, is it?


    the 60 billion was paid over the last 10 years ..You should research where and when that debt was built up a lot was pre crash and pre bankers bailout and even after bailing them out we were still borrowing.


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    #123
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,394 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Its not currently its like a vegetarian waking into a steakhouse looking at the menu and realising that its all meat. There is always at least 30% people who dont bother voting due to this and a lot of the people voting will tell you they are picking the best from a bad bunch. Why dont the cowards have the balls to put a none of the above option on the ballet and see how they go

    If only politics we are black and white as that analogy.


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    #124
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    kippy wrote: »
    If there actually were a "DEMAND" within the electorate for actual change, surely people would run to meet this demand. The demand simply isn't there from what I can see outside of a minority of people.

    People become jaded. Kenny offered 'real' change, 'change the way we do business' etc. A lot wanted that and voted for it. So the will is there, but as mentioned greed in many forms takes over.
    fliball123 wrote: »
    the 60 billion was paid over the last 10 years ..You should research where and when that debt was built up a lot was pre crash and pre bankers bailout and even after bailing them out we were still borrowing.
    Sinn Féin's David Cullinane asked: "Before the crash came it was about €40bn and it is now €205bn. So the vast majority of it is crash or austerity-related, either through bank recapitalisation or through servicing state expenditure."

    Mr O'Kelly said that this is correct.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/0704/1060035-national-debt/


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    #125
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,394 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    People become jaded. Kenny offered 'real' change, 'change the way we do business' etc. A lot wanted that and voted for it. So the will is there, but as mentioned greed in many forms takes over.
    (I am not sure Kenny is a good example)
    But is it greed or is it a dose of reality?

    There's plenty people with plenty ideas, but none with the will or support to put them in place.

    I think once you do get into a position where you might want to try change things you get to see the bigger picture of how difficult and how much of a knock on effect that change is going to have.


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    #126
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    markodaly wrote: »
    This is hilarious!!

    When asked the following question:


    We get this



    So far so good....

    Then, we get this when an idea on how to save some money, while delivering a service improvement, we get this.



    A reversal of opinion within a few posts.

    To be honest, this ties in with the OP. Why do we get crappy services with our tax money? Well, the answer is above, as exhibited by MattBarrett.
    ....

    You either don't understand or are choosing not to.
    If we are subsidising private industry, which seeks private profit, we are better off running it our selves as our goal is not to profit but to provide services in as cheap and an efficient manner as possible. Ergo, if we are losing money to provide a service it is preferable, IMO, to spending money so a private enterprise can provide the service and make a profit on top. It's very basic finance. You can disagree, but it's not a reversal as you put it. It's about value for money for the tax payer, but also providing services.


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    #127
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    kippy wrote: »
    (I am not sure Kenny is a good example)
    But is it greed or is it a dose of reality?

    There's plenty people with plenty ideas, but none with the will or support to put them in place.

    I think once you do get into a position where you might want to try change things you get to see the bigger picture of how difficult and how much of a knock on effect that change is going to have.

    He's the perfect example because he had the biggest opportunity to do something for the Irish, but decided not to.
    Changing the way we do business would mean less money to private concerns so they chose to continue as is. Greed comes into 'looking after our own' and inappropriate behaviour and sweet deals and the like.


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    #128
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    kippy wrote: »
    If only politics we are black and white as that analogy.




    Show me the alternative so?


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    #129
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,394 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    He's the perfect example because he had the biggest opportunity to do something for the Irish, but decided not to.
    Changing the way we do business would mean less money to private concerns so they chose to continue as is. Greed comes into 'looking after our own' and inappropriate behaviour and sweet deals and the like.

    Did he decide not to or did he realise that certain things were simply not feasible/possible based on the actual set of circumstances he encountered?
    (And again, I don't think Kenny is a good example here)


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    #130
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    kippy wrote: »
    Did he decide not to or did he realise that certain things were simply not feasible/possible based on the actual set of circumstances he encountered?
    (And again, I don't think Kenny is a good example here)

    He decided not to. Nobody forced Reilly to set up clinics on his own personal whim. Nobody forced crony appointments to IW. Nobody forced the siteserv deal on Noonan, (still under investigation)...I could go on. That's fine examples of the way Fine Gael under Kenny did business.
    Kenny is the greatest example of a political waster I know of. He had the chance to make branch and root changes and opted not to.


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    #131
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,952 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    You either don't understand or are choosing not to.
    If we are subsidising private industry, which seeks private profit, we are better off running it our selves as our goal is not to profit but to provide services in as cheap and an efficient manner as possible. Ergo, if we are losing money to provide a service it is preferable, IMO, to spending money so a private enterprise can provide the service and make a profit on top. It's very basic finance. You can disagree, but it's not a reversal as you put it. It's about value for money for the tax payer, but also providing services.

    I understand perfectly. You are a typical Irish voter.

    On one hand, you want ' a purely accountancy driven cost assessment' when assesing the provision of services.

    However, on the other hand, you state that 'we are better off running it our selves as our goal is not to profit'

    These are two ideas are separate and contradict each other. Cognitive dissonance if you will.

    Some services provided by the state are not run efficiently. Public Transport is one example of this. If an opportunity arose which meant that the Irish Taxpayer saved money but retained the same level of service, surely you would back and support this?


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    #132
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    markodaly wrote:
    Some services provided by the state are not run efficiently. Public Transport is one example of this. If an opportunity arose which meant that the Irish Taxpayer saved money but retained the same level of service, surely you would back and support this?


    Strangely enough, there's been plenty of work done on the 'inefficiency of the market' also, so....


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    #133
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,952 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Strangely enough, there's been plenty of work done on the 'inefficiency of the market' also, so....

    Can you elaborate on this point?


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    #134
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    markodaly wrote:
    Can you elaborate on this point?


    The age old debate, particularly by advocates of free market economics, would tell you the market is our savior, all knowing, and flawless, but reality tells us, this isn't exactly true, I'm just wondering, at what stage will we realise this, and how much damage will be done to humanity and our planet by the time that occurs. There's clearly something wrong with the neoliberal/neoclassical approach to life on this planet, but we re not reacting to it at all


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    #135
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,072 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    60 billion interest on our(?) National debt is hardly causing issues, is it?

    Just to be clear, the annual interest bill is approx 5-6 bn.


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    #136
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    markodaly wrote: »
    I understand perfectly. You are a typical Irish voter.

    On one hand, you want ' a purely accountancy driven cost assessment' when assesing the provision of services.

    However, on the other hand, you state that 'we are better off running it our selves as our goal is not to profit'

    These are two ideas are separate and contradict each other. Cognitive dissonance if you will.

    Some services provided by the state are not run efficiently. Public Transport is one example of this. If an opportunity arose which meant that the Irish Taxpayer saved money but retained the same level of service, surely you would back and support this?

    No. If a private company can be efficient so can a public one. A system with problems needs the problems addressed. We can tackle costs for services or subsidise private concerns and their profits. In that scenario we are better off with public. I honestly can't see what your issue is, efficiency based on cost can and does happen everyday except with the public model value is a goal above gouging for profit.

    Public: Cost to carry out service
    Private: Cost to carry out service + profit

    If we are subsidising private concerns it's possibly cheaper to remain public.


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    #137
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,072 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    No. If a private company can be efficient so can a public one. A system with problems needs the problems addressed. We can tackle costs for services or subsidise private concerns and their profits. In that scenario we are better off with public. I honestly can't see what your issue is, efficiency based on cost can and does happen everyday except with the public model value is a goal above gouging for profit.

    Public: Cost to carry out service
    Private: Cost to carry out service + profit

    If we are subsidising private concerns it's possibly cheaper to remain public.

    This could also be written as:



    Public: lower productivity / excessive wages / trade union power / no profit = costs per unit still higher then the private sector

    Private: higher productivity / high wages more earned/deserved + yes, profits = lower costs than public sector


    My local for-profit hosp does twice the procedures per session than my local public hosp.

    This is due to trade union power and the profit motive.


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    #138
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,072 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    No. If a private company can be efficient so can a public one.


    Decades upon decades have shown this to be unlikely.

    A public company could be productive and efficient, yes............

    But in reality, trade unions prevent that.

    Examples:

    Two porters in Galway hosp watch Steptoe and Sons videos after 4:30, after their boss has left.

    Consultants refuse to take more patients.

    Would this happen in a non-public hosp?


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    #139
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Geuze wrote: »
    This could also be written as:



    Public: lower productivity / excessive wages / trade union power / no profit = costs per unit still higher then the private sector

    Private: higher productivity / high wages more earned/deserved + yes, profits = lower costs than public sector


    My local for-profit hosp does twice the procedures per session than my local public hosp.

    This is due to trade union power and the profit motive.

    True. Commenting on the idea that subsidised private will automatically be an improvement and a better deal for the tax payer than bad public service, which may only need fixing.


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    #140
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Geuze wrote: »
    Decades upon decades have shown this to be unlikely.

    A public company could be productive and efficient, yes............

    But in reality, trade unions prevent that.

    Examples:

    Two porters in Galway hosp watch Steptoe and Sons videos after 4:30, after their boss has left.

    Consultants refuse to take more patients.

    Would this happen in a non-public hosp?

    As with water infrastructure, decades upon decades of inaction until a way is figured out to make private concerns money off it. The will wasn't/isn't there.
    I disagree, trade unions look out for their membership, that's their job. It's governments job to fight equally as hard for the tax payer.
    Patient has a 6 month wait to be seen, same specialist will see them next week, privately. This is private business affecting public service.
    Children's hospital over run, private contractor, substandard governance/management. Sweet deals, crony appointments. These are all issues that should be addressed not the way any business or service should be run.


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    #141
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,952 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    No. If a private company can be efficient so can a public one.

    Can it really?
    Why do the likes of Aircoach and Eireagle wipe the floor with Bus Eireann?

    Public entities are tied down with union dominated work culture and entitlements.
    Are you suggesting that we treat public employees like private ones, in order to attain efficiency? Quite right wing and Thatcherite of you.


    A system with problems needs the problems addressed. We can tackle costs for services or subsidise private concerns and their profits. In that scenario we are better off with public. I honestly can't see what your issue is, efficiency based on cost can and does happen everyday except with the public model value is a goal above gouging for profit.

    Can you give examples of this?

    When are we going to get rid of the thousands of HSE admin staff that are surplus to requirement?



    Public: Cost to carry out service
    Private: Cost to carry out service + profit

    If we are subsidising private concerns it's possibly cheaper to remain public.

    Possibly but rarely it ever happens like that. The fact is usually the case is that a private company can provide a service cheaper and make a profit, shows us the amount of waste and gross inefficiency endemic in the public sector.


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    #142
    jimbobaloobob
    Registered Users Posts: 5,153 ✭✭✭jimbobaloobob


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    The age old debate, particularly by advocates of free market economics, would tell you the market is our savior, all knowing, and flawless, but reality tells us, this isn't exactly true, I'm just wondering, at what stage will we realise this, and how much damage will be done to humanity and our planet by the time that occurs. There's clearly something wrong with the neoliberal/neoclassical approach to life on this planet, but we re not reacting to it at all
    I would agree with this. Sure didn't the WHO declare a few years ago that subsistence farming was the only way to afford and sustain feeding world populations yet economies seem hell bent on large intensive food production programmes.


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    #143
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    markodaly wrote:
    Possibly but rarely it ever happens like that. The fact is usually the case is that a private company can provide a service cheaper and make a profit, shows us the amount of waste and gross inefficiency endemic in the public sector.


    I've only ever worked in the private sector, mainly factories, plenty of inefficiencies there, plenty of lads standing around doing nothing, playing with their phones, watching tv, smoking joints etc etc, and still these companies, large multi nationals, make astonishing profits. Its not just the public sector filled with inefficiencies!

    Ul economist Stephen kinsella has shown how productivity has risen dramatically over the last couple of decades, but wealth inequality has also, him believing this is largely due to the demise of the union movement, I do suspect he's right.


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    #144
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,952 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    The age old debate, particularly by advocates of free market economics, would tell you the market is our savior, all knowing, and flawless, but reality tells us, this isn't exactly true, I'm just wondering, at what stage will we realise this, and how much damage will be done to humanity and our planet by the time that occurs. There's clearly something wrong with the neoliberal/neoclassical approach to life on this planet, but we re not reacting to it at all

    Not sure people out there state that the market is infallible. In reality, we do not have a free market and the areas which cause us most grief, like health and housing, are some of the most regulated and legislated areas in the state.

    I heard it said on RTE radio the other day on the SOR show, that the housing situation in Ireland is a classic case of market failure (it was in relation to rent control zones).

    Of course, the person who made the comment never followed up on the fact that the housing sector has been meddled with for decades by local county councils and the government. More often than not, solutions dreamt up by well meaning politicians and bureaucrats have unintended consequences, which require more and more meddling to fix.

    But that is why we elect TD's and councilors. It is more important for them to be seen doing something even if that something makes the situation worse.


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    #145
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,952 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    I've only ever worked in the private sector, mainly factories, plenty of inefficiencies there, plenty of lads standing around doing nothing, playing with their phones, watching tv, smoking joints etc etc, and still these companies, large multi nationals, make astonishing profits. Its not just the public sector filled with inefficiencies!

    Ul economist Stephen kinsella has shown how productivity has risen dramatically over the last couple of decades, but wealth inequality has also, him believing this is largely due to the demise of the union movement, I do suspect he's right.

    I am sure there are lots of inefficiencies in private businesses, I have seen them for myself. The crucial difference though, there is a constant drive to try and remove these inefficiencies otherwise bankruptcy looms, eventually.

    In the public system, so long as the taxpayer pays the wages and the pension then the system can keep on going.

    As per the last part, that would have more to do with Globalisation than anything. Wages in the west have stagnated since the late '70s and it has coincided with large numbers of women entering the workforce and globalisation. Wages in places like Poland, Vietnam, South Korea have increased hugely. Ireland can be included in this camp by the way.


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    #146
    machaseh
    Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭machaseh


    markodaly wrote: »
    I am sure there are lots of inefficiencies in private businesses, I have seen them for myself. The crucial difference though, there is a constant drive to try and remove these inefficiencies otherwise bankruptcy looms, eventually.

    In the public system, so long as the taxpayer pays the wages and the pension then the system can keep on going.

    As per the last part, that would have more to do with Globalisation than anything. Wages in the west have stagnated since the late '70s and it has coincided with large numbers of women entering the workforce and globalisation. Wages in places like Poland, Vietnam, South Korea have increased hugely. Ireland can be included in this camp by the way.

    Yet there are many countries where public institutions do function properly.

    And even if you work for the Government, if you mess things up you should be fired just as much as would happen in a private company. The Government itself will never cease to exist due to incompetency, but individual employees can.


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    #147
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    It would certainly be interesting to know how much money is spent by the public sector every year contracting in private sector companies to do the work.


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    #148
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,394 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    awec wrote: »
    It would certainly be interesting to know how much money is spent by the public sector every year contracting in private sector companies to do the work.
    Figures for 2016 are in here:
    https://ogp.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/OGP-Public-Service-Spend-and-Tendering-Report-2016-WEB-PAGES.pdf

    A bit more info here:
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2018-10-02a.407

    I don't know if this answers your question or not but pretty much anything needs to be tendered out now so that report would cover all instances of the "public" sector paying the "private" sector for specified goods and services.

    This information is publicly available generally - might be a few years behind - but requires a bit of reading.

    The Public sector could not exist without the private sector, or vice versa.

    Ultimately what the public sector spends in the private sector makes its way back into the economy, generally.
    The relationship is not generally as black and white as a straightforward financial transaction.


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    #149
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    We waste €18bn per year on the HSE which is good not nothing. We need to abolish the HSE and privatise it and let Healthcare be provided by the private sector like in America.


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    #150
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,394 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    theguzman wrote: »
    We waste €18bn per year on the HSE which is good not nothing. We need to abolish the HSE and privatise it and let Healthcare be provided by the private sector like in America.

    Yeah, that's an absolutely great idea........ healthcare costs much less to the individual citizen over there than it does here.......
    That's the model we should be focused on mirroring......
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States


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    #151
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    kippy wrote: »
    Yeah, that's an absolutely great idea........ healthcare costs much less to the individual citizen over there than it does here.......
    That's the model we should be focused on mirroring......
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States

    I hope for your own sake that you never have the misfortune for requiring the HSE. The HSE is an uter shambles, a corrupt, inept disgrace. If you gave someone a mandate on how to squander money and setup something so unfit for purpose they could not manage to create something as bad as the HSE.

    4-5 year waiting lists, over paid useless staff. Scrap PRSI and privatise the HSE and let the private sector deliver it with insurance. We should be left to opt out of the HSE since it is worthless.


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