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FF and FG, what's the difference?

13»

Comments

  • #102
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    If by that you mean comment on FF and FG being similar as a bad thing for the current government, yes I have.

    And as I asked before, what kind of government would you like to see?



    People didn't vote for a FF/FG coalition, it's a consequence not a choice.

    Sorry, but that is exactly what people voted for. The people were not happy with the FG and Labour supermajority of the previous government, so delivered us a minority government.


    Not at all what I said. FF might push for more social housing and accountability in issues such as the childrens hospital shenanigans?

    They can push all they want, but if FG says, we will do this our way, what can FF do? Well, they do have the power to bring down the government, but with great power comes responsibility. With that type of power, you have to look at the bigger picture.

    We see the debacle of the North where there has been no government there for over two years, yes two years, because of posturing over the Irish Language and other issues, that really do not matter to most people. That is a consequence of what you are calling for. Endless elections and posturing. Do you want Ireland to be like Italy?




    What answer do you expect?

    How about some honesty and realism? You avoid the harder questions all the time, instead engage in some philosophical overtures about how things should be.

    It fell the way it did, I could give an opinion of what a different outcome might look like and you can say why it didn't pan out that way.

    Well, go on then....

    Just saving time really. The idea that you can't be critical of bad governing because that's the government we got is nonsense IMO. It's tired, it's used a lot. It's about looking for better from what we have. I'd be happy for this power sharing combo to continue if they did a better job of it. I don't much care who wins.

    Ah, thought not.

    Classic hurling on the ditch.

    Can you make sense of this comment? I can't.

    As mentioned, FF and FG are in power because they are the most pragmatic parties we have. They don't really do ideology, while other parties do, to various extents.

    A party has a choice, it can drop the high idealism and compromise to get into government or you can be ideologically pure without ever doing anything of note.
    It's quite simple really. Voters who vote for the likes of SF, PBP or even Labour in 2011 bought into the false idea that a party can be a minority member of a government while maintaining this pure ideal. Only when it comes to power, hard choices have to be made. That is the price of it.

    FF and FG voters are generally much more pragmatic. They know that compromises will be made on some issues but in the main will be happy enough to stick with their lads. This is why these parties dominate Irish politics and the rest come and go.


  • #103
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    It's quite simple really - there is more power in the confidence and supply arrangement for FF than if they were in opposition. I didn't think this was an exceptionally difficult thought exercise?

    Great point if completely off the topic of discussion, well the one I'm having anyway. Parties want power shocker. I'd say that's a disservice to a party to suggest they are only about power above and beyond political ethos, but it is FF/FG we're talking about.
    A poor 'opposition' supporting a poor government is not healthy. I would have thought arriving at that several posts in wasn't an exceptionally difficult thought exercise?


  • #104
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    I'd like to see a working partnership where FF play a more active role in policy, (that's right FG, looking to FF of all parties to take you to task, well done).
    markodaly wrote: »
    ..

    FF and FG voters are generally much more pragmatic. They know that compromises will be made on some issues but in the main will be happy enough to stick with their lads. This is why these parties dominate Irish politics and the rest come and go.

    So you're saying these parties go with the tide and have little if any difference between them? I agree. Do you think that's healthy for a society for the 'opposition' to be so alike or have the same self serving interests as the government while outwardly pretending they don't? Do you think FF/FG voters vote blindfolded and stick a pin in either or?
    You can still love or loathe either, imagine it's PBP and they have a confidence and supply deal with Indies for change?


  • #105
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,316 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I'd like to see a working partnership where FF play a more active role in policy, (that's right FG, looking to FF of all parties to take you to task, well done).


    I am surprised, I hadn't seen you as a FF supporter.


  • #106
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I am surprised, I hadn't seen you as a FF supporter.

    TBF, they are best placed to take FG to task, thanks to FG. I would never vote for either.


  • #107
    Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo


    I think one good thing about Irish politics is having a referendum on things that can divide people. So instead of having a pro or anti abortion or gay marriage party split. The people decide and whoever is in government implement the will of the people.

    I hope the same happens for weed criminalisation and terminal illness euthanasia.

    All the main parties come from a soft to hard Irish nationalist background. Maybe Renua wouldn't have fallen into that category but they dead.

    The geographical spread of all the parties are fairly well ingrained as well. Like there's no south west type movement with Cork/Kerry/Limerick wanting to identify as a separate group.

    So having somewhat homogenous political parties has kept politics from ever going extreme. I think it has always been pragmatism over strong ideology.

    The PR voting system I think also keeps the voting public feeling enfranchised enough.

    An Irexit vote would never wash here. Because be you an independent voter or a party political voter everyone has skin in the game. And everyone seems to moderate one another to varying degrees.

    The main difference between FF and FG to me entirely depends on the actual personalities who sit at the cabinet table making decisions. So they are more driven by the people than ideology.


  • #108
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Great point if completely off the topic of discussion, well the one I'm having anyway.
    There doesn't seem to be a coherent topic of discussion though. I'm still not clear what point you're actually trying to make.
    Parties want power shocker. I'd say that's a disservice to a party to suggest they are only about power above and beyond political ethos, but it is FF/FG we're talking about.
    So, if I'm understanding your point here: all parties want power; only FF/FG wants power.
    A poor 'opposition' supporting a poor government is not healthy. I would have thought arriving at that several posts in wasn't an exceptionally difficult thought exercise?
    Without the C&S there is no government. So I'm not sure what you want exactly? Endless elections and no government for months isn't a great look - ask some of our crackpot European neighbours.


  • #109
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    There doesn't seem to be a coherent topic of discussion though. I'm still not clear what point you're actually trying to make.

    So, if I'm understanding your point here: all parties want power; only FF/FG wants power.

    It seems you're choosing not to.

    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Without the C&S there is no government. So I'm not sure what you want exactly? Endless elections and no government for months isn't a great look - ask some of our crackpot European neighbours.
    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I'd like to see a working partnership where FF play a more active role in policy, (that's right FG, looking to FF of all parties to take you to task, well done)...
    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    ...
    A poor 'opposition' supporting a poor government is not healthy. I would have thought arriving at that several posts in wasn't an exceptionally difficult thought exercise?

    It's all been explained quite clearly, I suggest you read posts before commenting.


  • #110
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »
    I think one good thing about Irish politics is having a referendum on things that can divide people. So instead of having a pro or anti abortion or gay marriage party split. The people decide and whoever is in government implement the will of the people.

    I hope the same happens for weed criminalisation and terminal illness euthanasia.

    All the main parties come from a soft to hard Irish nationalist background. Maybe Renua wouldn't have fallen into that category but they dead.

    The geographical spread of all the parties are fairly well ingrained as well. Like there's no south west type movement with Cork/Kerry/Limerick wanting to identify as a separate group.

    So having somewhat homogenous political parties has kept politics from ever going extreme. I think it has always been pragmatism over strong ideology.

    The PR voting system I think also keeps the voting public feeling enfranchised enough.

    An Irexit vote would never wash here. Because be you an independent voter or a party political voter everyone has skin in the game. And everyone seems to moderate one another to varying degrees.

    The main difference between FF and FG to me entirely depends on the actual personalities who sit at the cabinet table making decisions. So they are more driven by the people than ideology.

    The idea is sound and partners, not pretending to also be in opposition should work together, however they should also try keep the senior partner on the right track in the face of waste and cronyism otherwise there's no point in them considering themselves separate at all IMO. Also the above falls flat when the government of the day are doing a (record breaking in some areas) poor job and the 'opposition' are happy to support it.
    You can criticise and hope for better without giving a rallying call for another team. We have what we have, it could be better.


  • #111
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Also the above falls flat when the government of the day are doing a (record breaking in some areas) poor job and the 'opposition' are happy to support it.

    The opposition parties Labour/SF/PBP/Soc-Dems all went out of their way to stay in opposition after the last election.

    They are happy enough to allow FG run the show. It avoids them actually having to make any decisions and lets them showboat ever onward.


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  • #112
    John DoeReMi
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭John DoeReMi


    One has bankrupted the country twice. The other hasn't.


  • #113
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    The opposition parties Labour/SF/PBP/Soc-Dems all went out of their way to stay in opposition after the last election.

    They are happy enough to allow FG run the show. It avoids them actually having to make any decisions and lets them showboat ever onward.

    Possibly I'm sure. I'm not commenting on Labour/SF/PBP/Soc-Dems. We have what we have, it could be better if FG were held to account by FF IMO, or FG changed the way they do business.
    John DoeReMi wrote: »
    One has bankrupted the country twice. The other hasn't.

    Yet they are good enough to partner with.


  • #114
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Possibly I'm sure. I'm not commenting on Labour/SF/PBP/Soc-Dems. We have what we have, it could be better if FG were held to account by FF IMO, or FG changed the way they do business.

    They would have to change the way they do business if the other parties put together a government. Easily done surely if FG are so bad?


  • #115
    B-D-P--
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭B-D-P--


    FG is in power now, FF will be in power in 2 years.

    About all there is in difference.


  • #116
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    They would have to change the way they do business if the other parties put together a government. Easily done surely if FG are so bad?

    You have to accept that we have FG/FF in government. The pros or cons of the what ifs won't help us today. I've no interest in creating a fantasy league government. I don't care who's in if they do a good job. We'll see where we are next election.
    Just because FG aren't doing well now regarding the crises doesn't mean they can't change things and shouldn't be encouraged to do so by FF.

    They are too alike and doing a poor job. FF can bluster about it but they are complicit.


  • #117
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,316 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Possibly I'm sure. I'm not commenting on Labour/SF/PBP/Soc-Dems. We have what we have, it could be better if FG were held to account by FF IMO, or FG changed the way they do business.



    Yet they are good enough to partner with.


    Unfortunately, when looking at FF supporting FG, if you want to criticise it (and you do ad nauseum), it is important that you explain what the alternative is.

    Looking at the list of parties you reference - Labour/SF/PBP/Soc-Dems - there hasn't been a single thing they have done or proposed in the last few years that would even make you pause to think that they might do a better job. They mostly end up making FG look half-decent in policy terms.


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