Why do Gardaí not enforce Traffic Law?

bmaxi · 30-08-2009 11:50am #1

Why do the Gardaí not routinely enforce traffic law? This is becoming a major irritation to many people. I know there are some Gardaí who subscribe to Boards, perhaps they could enlighten us.
It seems to me that on any given day an offence is targetted by the Inspector, Superintendent or whatever and a blitz is carried out for that day, the other 364 it is ignored. Do Gardaí not have, or are they discouraged from using, initiative.
In one instance recently, I was overtaken by a "one eyed jack". I was behind this car for about a mile when we came to a checkpoint. A cursory check of the car's windscreen and he was waved on.
I was dumbfounded, how can an obvious breach of the RTA and a serious hazard to other road users, just be ignored by those charged with upholding and enforcing the law? I know it is possible that the driver was unaware of the defect but surely it at least called for the Garda to apprise him of the situation and have it remedied before taking to the road again .
As one who has spent a considerable portion of my life on the road, it irritates me to see such blatant disregard for the law and the trust people place in them to uphold it and before anyone calls it an isolated incident, I see similar almost every day.
The Gardaí are becoming increasingly remote from and mistrusted by, the general public yet it is to these public that they must turn for help, it is a symbiotic relationship.
It really is time, before it is too late, to recover the situation.
When I was growing up the Gardaí were respected and trusted by the community at large, this is no longer the case and a major factor IMO is the perceived cherry picking attitude to the law as applied to Joe Public.

2qk4u · 30-08-2009 11:59am

What really gets to me is all the hype about road deaths and the checkpoints at bank holiday weekends, what about the rest of the time ? There would be less road deaths if there was more inforcement. Im on the road all day 5 to 6 days a week and have never been breathalised, never had my car checked for general roadworthyness and am amazed that a valid tax disk give automatic right of passage at a checkpoint.
I see drivers break the law every day in full view of the Gardai and they just do nothing.

Empire o de Sun · 30-08-2009 12:28pm

What gets me is the lack of

Parking Enforcement,
People parking anywhere they can fit. I see this everywhere, block drop kerbs, on double yellows blocking sightlines, and on double yellows and clearways blocking traffic. I see this everyday and this is around a Garda Station.

Traffic Lights,
I'm a pedestrian in Dublin and it really annoys me when I've the green to cross and cars are still coming breaking the red, and the the cars from the other direction start going early and I have no time to cross, even though I have the green to cross. :mad:

Cars Stopping at the guidelines for pedestrians instead of the stop line at traffic lights. I see this every day. How is someone who is partially sighted or a parent with buggy or someone in a wheelchair supposed to cross safely.

These could be solved by doing what they do in many other countries Spain, France, Germany etc. Our traffic lights are set with lights on the far side as well as the near side of junctions. So you can see when the other is getting red. If lights were all on the near side then;
you'd have to stop at the stop line to see the lights
stop this "rolling stop" you get at traffic lights (cars slowly rolling forward).
keep the crossings clear for pedestrians
safer

Cycleways (shared with footway or on it's own)
Cycletrack (shared road space)
Cars Parking in cycleways :mad:, I also cycle when I can. But people treating Cycletracks as a big long carparking bay.

Also, I am a cyclist, but cyclists assuming traffic lights are not for them. :mad: I drive also and this is a nightmare.

All these things happening everyday and never see anyone stopped by the Gardaí.

MaceFace · 30-08-2009 1:50pm

Its not just traffic enforcement.
How many of us have been found breaking the law in other ways and gotten away with it.
Example - on the way to gigs and cops see us drinking walking up the street even though it is illegal to drink alcohol in public. Ignored!
I got knocked off my bike my a car before as a police bike was just beside me. He just looked.

Stop the minor offences and maybe that will impact on the major offences!

mike65 · 30-08-2009 1:53pm

The guards don't appear to subscribe to the Broken Window theory, too much like hard work I suspect.

30-08-2009 2:07pm

mike65 wrote: »

The guards don't appear to subscribe to the Broken Window theory, too much like hard work I suspect.

It's more to do with the paperwork, I reckon, as in can't be arsed to do it!

AugustusMaximus · 30-08-2009 3:51pm

Exactly, too much work enforcing all the rules of the road.

Instead, they revert to the usual speed trap policy, but nothing else.

cyclopath2001 · 30-08-2009 5:14pm

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Exactly, too much work enforcing all the rules of the road.

And so many people breaking the rules, wasting Garda and court time with arguments and technicalities.

MaceFace · 30-08-2009 7:40pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

And so many people breaking the rules, wasting Garda and court time with arguments and technicalities.

So sort the wasters out.

Terrontress · 31-08-2009 12:02am

What annoys me is the shooting fish in a barrel model. And yes, this includes the drink checkpoints!

Surely the best method of enforcement is to have trained traffic officers on the roads, in cars.

If they know their job they'd spot dangerous drivers throughout the entire patch they're patrolling.

Not just parked in a single location, looking for evidence of only one offence. I could drive away from the checkpoint at 160km/h, safe in the knowledge that all cops are behind me doing RANDOM checks.

Surely going out there and TARGETING SUSPICIOUS BEHAVIOUR has to be better?

Dyr · 31-08-2009 12:09pm

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

What gets me is the lack of

Parking Enforcement,
People parking anywhere they can fit. I see this everywhere, block drop kerbs, on double yellows blocking sightlines, and on double yellows and clearways blocking traffic. I see this everyday and this is around a Garda Station.

Traffic Lights,
I'm a pedestrian in Dublin and it really annoys me when I've the green to cross and cars are still coming breaking the red, and the the cars from the other direction start going early and I have no time to cross, even though I have the green to cross. :mad:

Cars Stopping at the guidelines for pedestrians instead of the stop line at traffic lights. I see this every day. How is someone who is partially sighted or a parent with buggy or someone in a wheelchair supposed to cross safely.

These could be solved by doing what they do in many other countries Spain, France, Germany etc. Our traffic lights are set with lights on the far side as well as the near side of junctions. So you can see when the other is getting red. If lights were all on the near side then;
you'd have to stop at the stop line to see the lights
stop this "rolling stop" you get at traffic lights (cars slowly rolling forward).
keep the crossings clear for pedestrians
safer

happens in ballymun all the time, people park on the main road outside the civic centre (presumably for the motor tax office) you could have row of 30 plus cars some of whihc are parked on double yellows and a bus lane. The garda station is next door yet they don't seem to have problem with it.

cyclopath2001 · 31-08-2009 7:05pm

Terrontress wrote: »

What annoys me is the shooting fish in a barrel model.

Also known as the 'lemmings over a cliff' model.

Terrontress wrote: »

Surely the best method of enforcement is to have trained traffic officers on the roads, in cars.

That's quite expensive. Cameras are quite cost effective and free up resources for other more serious offenses.

It's not just grossly dangerous drivers we need to target, it's law-breaking behaviour in general.

bazzer · 31-08-2009 7:17pm

Bambi wrote: »

happens in ballymun all the time, people park on the main road outside the civic centre (presumably for the motor tax office) you could have row of 30 plus cars some of whihc are parked on double yellows and a bus lane. The garda station is next door yet they don't seem to have problem with it.

I believe that part of the Ballymun bus lane does not operate between something like 11am and 4pm.

If the Guards seriously want some easy fine-revenue, they should patrol the bus lane on Conyngham Road. It might as well not be there with the amount of cars queueing in it every morning.

L1011 · 01-09-2009 12:52am

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's quite expensive. Cameras are quite cost effective and free up resources for other more serious offenses.

Show me the automatic camera that can work for 'minor' offenses such as broken lights, tailgating, dangerous lane changes and seatbelts; which Guards seem willing to ignore when passing...

Cameras basically work for red light violations (and are widely accepted to indirectly cause more traffic accidents when fitted for such, albeit obviously the rear-ending driver is legally at fault) and speeding on roads where the camera has a few hundred metres clear view - generally straight ones.

The only place I've seen speed cameras widely used properly and not solely as a revenue generation exercise is Birmingham, where they are frequently (and HEAVILY signed) in 30mph residential areas and non-existent on higher speed, higher quality sections of road. They catch people who are not only speeding in areas where it is dangerous to speed, but who are also extremely inattentive. The rest of the UK, and here, puts them on rural straight sections of road for the most part; and almost always sections of road capable of high speed or with a lower than design speed limit.

The now defunct SPECS installation in Newry was also relatively well implemented, as it covered a very twisty section of road on which people used to absolutely bomb it - but it was only one site; and from memory they cut the speed limit just before they put it in!

cyclopath2001 · 01-09-2009 7:52am

MYOB wrote: »

They catch people who are not only speeding in areas where it is dangerous to speed,

You're using a very narrow justification for enforcing speed limits. There are other valid reasons.

Confining the support of enforcement measures to dangerous situations only is part of an agenda of stealthy unpicking of the law, much in the same way as motorists only ever refer to 'breaking read lights' and never to 'breaking amber lights'.

Unfortunately, as seen in 'motors', there are Gardai (or people masquerading as Gardai) who show much sympathy for the plight of the 'ordinary decent speeder' and would rather be popular than enforce the law.

parsi · 01-09-2009 9:04am

Cameras in France seem to be well sited and located in areas that do have a risk rather than as pure money makers.

I have an Inforad K1 for which I can download camera locations across Europe. 9% of the database is for French cameras and 30% is for UK cameras.

People's problems seem to be that there are only parts of the rules which are visibly enforced. Speed traps are visible but we've all seen one-eyed-bandits driving past squad cars and I've never seen an unlit cyclist being ticketed.

101sean · 01-09-2009 9:20am

I've just dowwnloaded the speed camera database from pocketgpsworld as off to UK next week and will have a hire van there. There over 10000 fixed and mobile camera locations for the UK, most of them government cash machines. Even some local councils are no longer supporting them and removing some. I agree with there use in hazardous locations, near schools etc but a proper police/garda presence would be better for general traffic enforcement.

bmaxi · 01-09-2009 11:27am

Just an update on my original grouse.
Driving through Rialto on Sunday I came on a situation where three cars were parked on a dished section of pavement outside what looked like a vacant business premises. There were two Gardaí at the scene, one of whom was writing what I assume to be a parking ticket, the second was speaking to the occupant of a taxi parked on the road. As I drove on I could see another person, who I took to be the owner of the car, talking to the Garda who was writing the ticket.
I can only presume that the occupant of the taxi wanted to gain access to the premises and called the Gardaí when he couldn't.
I drove back through the area about an hour later and the offending car had been removed but the other two were still there and guess what, neither had a ticket. I mean WTF?
My own opinion is, if the law is enforced it is less likely to be broken. I'm pretty sure the guy who got the ticket won't park there again, but the other two?

TheNog · 01-09-2009 11:44am

bmaxi wrote: »

Just an update on my original grouse.
Driving through Rialto on Sunday I came on a situation where three cars were parked on a dished section of pavement outside what looked like a vacant business premises. There were two Gardaí at the scene, one of whom was writing what I assume to be a parking ticket, the second was speaking to the occupant of a taxi parked on the road. As I drove on I could see another person, who I took to be the owner of the car, talking to the Garda who was writing the ticket.
I can only presume that the occupant of the taxi wanted to gain access to the premises and called the Gardaí when he couldn't.
I drove back through the area about an hour later and the offending car had been removed but the other two were still there and guess what, neither had a ticket. I mean WTF?
My own opinion is, if the law is enforced it is less likely to be broken. I'm pretty sure the guy who got the ticket won't park there again, but the other two?

How can you assume it was a parking issue if you couldnt hear the conversation? It could have been from a report of dangerous driving, drunk driving, a stop and search, the car could have been used in a crime etc etc...

there are many reasons why the car or cars were stopped.

Also any ticket for parking issued by a Garda is not displayed on the car, it is sent to the owner/driver address.

bmaxi · 01-09-2009 1:48pm

TheNog wrote: »

How can you assume it was a parking issue if you couldnt hear the conversation? It could have been from a report of dangerous driving, drunk driving, a stop and search, the car could have been used in a crime etc etc...

there are many reasons why the car or cars were stopped.

Also any ticket for parking issued by a Garda is not displayed on the car, it is sent to the owner/driver address.

No, you're right, I can't assume any of that and that is why I used the words assume and presume in my post. The car in question was parked between the other two, directly outside the entrance and had a steering lock attached, so looked as if it hadn't been moved for a while.
I can't dispute whether parking tickets issued by Gardaí are affixed to the car because I don't know, all I can say is, in my recollection that was not always the case. One would assume that physical evidence of an offence would be a deterrent to others
Perhaps you'd care to comment on the original post.

TheNog · 01-09-2009 11:28pm

bmaxi wrote: »

I can't dispute whether parking tickets issued by Gardaí are affixed to the car because I don't know, all I can say is, in my recollection that was not always the case. One would assume that physical evidence of an offence would be a deterrent to others

In order to provide efficient and highly visible deterence for other road users would porbably be in the line of placing a visible and waterproof sticker to a window facing other road users with a ticket inside. The problem with this though is a Garda on the Beat would have to carry these items along with a printing machine along with his/her regular equipment. TBH our equipment that we routinely carry is heavy enough as it is and anything else carried would become a liability say in a public order incident which we all know can happen at anytime of the day or night.

In reality this is the job of a Traffic Warden except in an unusual case of it occuring after-hours and if the vehicle is causing a major distribution to the free-flow of traffic.

Perhaps you'd care to comment on the original post.

Your OP definitely has some validity to it but honestly I dont particularly care to respond to your original post because by doing that I would either be responding for the whole force (which I dont do) or I would be telling you what I do in that situation. No matter which way I answer it, I would have people directing their frustration towards me. No offence meant towards you.

I will just add one thing though. Every minor traffic offence should be dealt with via a Fixed Penalty rather than a summons to court which is how the majority of minor traffic offences are dealt with. This would mean easier detection of offences for the Garda and easier also for the driver who doesnt automatically have to go to court.

bmaxi · 02-09-2009 9:44am

TheNog wrote: »

In order to provide efficient and highly visible deterence for other road users would porbably be in the line of placing a visible and waterproof sticker to a window facing other road users with a ticket inside. The problem with this though is a Garda on the Beat would have to carry these items along with a printing machine along with his/her regular equipment. TBH our equipment that we routinely carry is heavy enough as it is and anything else carried would become a liability say in a public order incident which we all know can happen at anytime of the day or night.

Your OP definitely has some validity to it but honestly I dont particularly care to respond to your original post because by doing that I would either be responding for the whole force (which I dont do) or I would be telling you what I do in that situation. No matter which way I answer it, I would have people directing their frustration towards me. No offence meant towards you.

I will just add one thing though. Every minor traffic offence should be dealt with via a Fixed Penalty rather than a summons to court which is how the majority of minor traffic offences are dealt with. This would mean easier detection of offences for the Garda and easier also for the driver who doesnt automatically have to go to court.

I take your point on not wishing to comment for the entire force but public perception is of the entire force not of any individual Garda. Garda promotion being internal, lazy Gardaí become lazy Commissioners and the rot spreads.
Unfortunately and unfairly IMO, Gardaí are rapidly catching up with politicians in the eyes of the public and if they wish to maintain public support it is up to the force itself to weed out, rather than close ranks around, the dross. This may sound over dramatised when discussing minor traffic offences but all these things have a knock on effect. Most people don't see the effort that goes into successfully prosecuting a murderer or finding a missing child but they do see what is perceived as a lackadaisical approach to everyday misdemeanours and this is the perception they hold on to.

In reality this is the job of a Traffic Warden except in an unusual case of it occuring after-hours and if the vehicle is causing a major distribution to the free-flow of traffic.

The incident was on a Sunday, blind people and mothers with prams don't take Sundays off.

The problem with this though is a Garda on the Beat would have to carry these items along with a printing machine along with his/her regular equipment.

Does a Garda not routinely carry a book of tickets? Surely a few plastic envelopes wouldn't weigh much and what's wrong with a pen?

I will just add one thing though. Every minor traffic offence should be dealt with via a Fixed Penalty rather than a summons to court which is how the majority of minor traffic offences are dealt with. This would mean easier detection of offences for the Garda and easier also for the driver who doesnt automatically have to go to court.

Agreed, that's something the Gardaí should be lobbying for but it doesn't alter the fact that at least some comment should have been made by the Garda at the checkpoint.

markpb · 02-09-2009 11:00am

TheNog wrote: »

I will just add one thing though. Every minor traffic offence should be dealt with via a Fixed Penalty rather than a summons to court which is how the majority of minor traffic offences are dealt with. This would mean easier detection of offences for the Garda and easier also for the driver who doesnt automatically have to go to court.

TheNog might not want to speak for the whole force but he should be. This is *exactly* the reason. Bringing someone to court for parking on a double yellow line is a waste of the Garda's time, the motorist's time and will probably see the Judge a) throw it out because it's a minor offence and b) give out to and mock the Garda in the courtroom for wasting his time.

L1011 · 02-09-2009 7:32pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You're using a very narrow justification for enforcing speed limits. There are other valid reasons.

Speed limits were introduced for safety. There are no other valid reasons other than to keep traffic below the safe speed of the road.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Confining the support of enforcement measures to dangerous situations only is part of an agenda of stealthy unpicking of the law, much in the same way as motorists only ever refer to 'breaking read lights' and never to 'breaking amber lights'.

There is no, and never can be, a non-subjective way of deciding if someone broke an amber light illegally or passed it legally due to being unable to stop. Hence its not talked about.

L1011 · 02-09-2009 7:35pm

bmaxi wrote: »

Does a Garda not routinely carry a book of tickets? Surely a few plastic envelopes wouldn't weigh much and what's wrong with a pen?

fixed penalty notices for speeding, etc, are issued using a PDA not a physical paper book. These cost a lot more than paper to deploy, and are extremely fragile (by comparison) and vulnerable to leave knocking around in a beat cops pocket. Its likely the PDA would be written off before it had "paid" for itself so to speak. Its also another thing to keep charged!

02-09-2009 8:30pm

MYOB wrote: »

There is no, and never can be, a non-subjective way of deciding if someone broke an amber light illegally or passed it legally due to being unable to stop. Hence its not talked about.

I'd add to that; except when stamping on the brakes on an amber and having a vehicle ram you up the rear! that would get you a ticket!

childoforpheus · 02-09-2009 10:46pm

MYOB wrote: »

fixed penalty notices for speeding, etc, are issued using a PDA not a physical paper book. These cost a lot more than paper to deploy, and are extremely fragile (by comparison) and vulnerable to leave knocking around in a beat cops pocket. Its likely the PDA would be written off before it had "paid" for itself so to speak. Its also another thing to keep charged!

Fixed charge penalty notices can be issued using either a PDA or in paper format.

bmaxi wrote: »

The Gardaí are becoming increasingly remote from and mistrusted by, the general public yet it is to these public that they must turn for help, it is a symbiotic relationship.

The following are the 'satisfaction with overall Garda service to the community' statistics: 87 per cent in 2002, 81 per cent in 2003, 85 per cent in 2004, 83 per cent in 2005, 79 per cent in 2006, 81 per cent in 2007 and 81 per cent in 2008. So the figures would suggest that satisfaction with the Gardai has been fairly consistent in the last number of years.

cyclopath2001 · 03-09-2009 8:04am

MYOB wrote: »

Speed limits were introduced for safety. There are no other valid reasons other than to keep traffic below the safe speed of the road.

Traffic flow? Intimidation effect on pedestrians and cyclists? Noise? Cars exist in a social environment.

MYOB wrote: »

There is no, and never can be, a non-subjective way of deciding if someone broke an amber light illegally or passed it legally due to being unable to stop. Hence its not talked about.

More likely, motorists are trying to suppress a rule that they fid inconvenient.

There are objective ways of measuring stopping distances at speed and we all know that every day there are blatantly obvious instances of drivers not stopping on amber. You might be able to kid yourself on this but it's quite obvious to any well-informed road user.

Limiting your cooperation with road-traffic rules to matters of safety and danger is like a criminal agreeing not to murder or injure anyone, but thinking that a bit of theft and intimidation is fair enough.

The Gardai are overwhelmed by petty law breaking.

It's up to individual citizens obey road-traffic laws and show proper consideration for others.

Wishbone Ash · 03-09-2009 8:55am

Bambi wrote: »

happens in ballymun all the time, people park on the main road outside the civic centre (presumably for the motor tax office) you could have row of 30 plus cars some of whihc are parked on double yellows and a bus lane. The garda station is next door yet they don't seem to have problem with it.

Parking is permitted at certain times there.

Did you ever visit that Garda Station? It's usually full of people complaining about having received a parking ticket!

vasch_ro · 03-09-2009 9:16am

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

What gets me is the lack of

Parking Enforcement,
People parking anywhere they can fit. I see this everywhere, block drop kerbs, on double yellows blocking sightlines, and on double yellows and clearways blocking traffic. I see this everyday and this is around a Garda Station.

Traffic Lights,
I'm a pedestrian in Dublin and it really annoys me when I've the green to cross and cars are still coming breaking the red, and the the cars from the other direction start going early and I have no time to cross, even though I have the green to cross. :mad:

Cars Stopping at the guidelines for pedestrians instead of the stop line at traffic lights. I see this every day. How is someone who is partially sighted or a parent with buggy or someone in a wheelchair supposed to cross safely.

These could be solved by doing what they do in many other countries Spain, France, Germany etc. Our traffic lights are set with lights on the far side as well as the near side of junctions. So you can see when the other is getting red. If lights were all on the near side then;
you'd have to stop at the stop line to see the lights
stop this "rolling stop" you get at traffic lights (cars slowly rolling forward).
keep the crossings clear for pedestrians
safer

Cycleways (shared with footway or on it's own)
Cycletrack (shared road space)
Cars Parking in cycleways :mad:, I also cycle when I can. But people treating Cycletracks as a big long carparking bay.

Also, I am a cyclist, but cyclists assuming traffic lights are not for them. :mad: I drive also and this is a nightmare.

All these things happening everyday and never see anyone stopped by the Gardaí.

what gets me is that people feel free to break all these laws when ever they feel like it ,there is a culture of law breaking in this country,a particularly with double yellow lines etc people just do not think

vasch_ro · 03-09-2009 9:20am

bmaxi wrote: »

Does a Garda not routinely carry a book of tickets? Surely a few plastic envelopes wouldn't weigh much and what's wrong with a pen?

.

we used to carry them, the worst thing they ever did was take them off us
with yellow sticky backed waterproof envelopes,
now because of the ticket less system there is alot of wasted time over mutiple issuing of fines for the same offence at the same location

Why do Gardaí not enforce Traffic Law?

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