Ireland's Jewish community

blackwhite · 12-07-2019 10:36am

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually them knowing the full extent of what the Nazis were doing is extremely debatable. Of course the nazis were antisemitic and they weren't the only ones. They were also anticommunist, anti trade unions, anti lots of things. Specific information was hard to come by and even ignored by some in the Allied power base when information did come in. ............

Sorry there Wibbs - I think you've misunderstood the point.

Sinn Féin, Republican Sinn Féin and the PIRA have all continued to venerate Russell, long after the full scale of Nazi barbarism and atrocities were fully known.
The current leader of Sinn Féin has delivered orations at a statue of Russell FFS.

The continued veneration of a nazi-collaborator provide a very strong indication that they've have held their noses and tolerated most anything if they thought it might further "the cause"

blackwhite · 12-07-2019 10:36am

Tony EH wrote: »

Here's another Russell quote for you:

"I am not a Nazi. I am not even Pro German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland. The British have been our Enemies for hundreds of years. They are the enemy of Germany today. If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve independence, I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings attached."

I'm not interested in minimising anything. Be careful where you're going with this.

Just commenting on a pattern in your posting - but thanks for the not-so-thinly-veiled threats :rolleyes:

Peregrinus · 12-07-2019 10:38am

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually them knowing the full extent of what the Nazis were doing is extremely debatable . . .

The "Final Solution" - the attempt at a systematic extermination of the Jewish people - had not begun when Russell died. So far as we know it hadn't even been thought of. So we can't judge Russell, or anyone in the IRA at the time, on the basis that they would countenance working with people who would do such a thing.

But were the Nazis known to be viciously, systematically antisemitic? Hell, yes. Antisemitic laws started to be enacted in 1933; the Nuremberg race laws (stripping jews of citizenship and imposing severe disablities on them) in 1935; Kristallnacht happened in 1938. Where they could, Jews were fleeing Germany in large numbers from the mid-1930s onwards.

This was all widely-known, and much-discussed. Yes, IRA figures who collaborated with the Nazis knew who they were collaborating with.

cameramonkey · 12-07-2019 10:48am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

‘

The following action led to a fear of a pogram in Dublin at the time.

In October 1923, Commandant James Conroy was implicated in the murder of two Jewish men, Bernard Goldberg and Emmanuel 'Ernest' Kah[a]n. A later application for an army pension was rejected. The killings were the subject of a 2010 investigative documentary by RTÉ; CSÍ: Murder in Little Jerusalem

You are really showing your colours here. Those murders had nothing to do with the IRA, they were carried out by free state army officers avowed enemies of the IRA.. Your grasp of history is not great..

Tony EH · 12-07-2019 10:48am

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually them knowing the full extent of what the Nazis were doing is extremely debatable. Of course the nazis were antisemitic and they weren't the only ones. They were also anticommunist, anti trade unions, anti lots of things. Specific information was hard to come by and even ignored by some in the Allied power base when information did come in. How many air raids were aimed at concentration camps? The German barracks were easy enough to distinguish within them. The Auschwitz complex was also an industrial target, yet never attacked. Churchill apparently considered the option but didn't go through with it. Neither did the Americans.

Nowadays we know the true extent of what they were doing, but before and during the war not nearly so much beyond rumour and whispers. When witnesses did come forward it was scarcely to be believed. Hell, even in the post war period the Holocaust was almost a sideline. The world had seen the photos and film and reports from Belsen, but the true and wider extent was not nearly so well known and with the new Cold War going on and the need for Germany as a buffer it was sidelined even further. It was a US based chap by the name of Dr Raul Hilberg who kicked off research into this period and crime against humanity. Even then he had to fight to get his research published in the US and it only found a publisher in 1961. It didn't get into the general public consciousness until later again.

Even among Germans it was an odd and chilling mix of avoidance of the subject or complete ignorance of the details or a refusal to believe what details did get through. It was a scarily "invisible" machine at work and unless you were directly involved in its implementation it was a very nebulous business and one kept apart from the "normal" war effort. Even among Hitler's staff, bodyguards, secretaries etc, those who worked within the belly of that beast day after day for years, all of them declared they never saw or heard any specific or even vague details of the Final Solution. Even the Soviet interrogators that questioned some of them and tortured many believed their story. Many of them concluded that it was almost entirely left to people like Himmler to implement this horror and kept separate as much as possible. If you were one of his staff you would have known damn well what was going on. Outside that circle, if you noticed anything you kept your mouth shut. I remember an interview with a German railway office type who scheduled trains throughout the reich. Among the everyday rail traffic he saw trains going out of the main German areas into the east packed to capacity, but coming back empty, but didn't want to think about what this actually meant and consoled himself with the idea that people were being simply relocated...

A quote on the matter from Hitler's bodyguard and one of the last people to see him in the bunker where he killed himself:
“I heard nothing of the Wannsee Conference on 20 January 1942 in Berlin, which was to organise in detail the extermination of the Jews which had already begun. As already mentioned, the subject of Jews and concentration camps never came up among us. Neither did anything ever filter through to us which might have led to a discussion, nor did we have any motive to talk about these things. We knew of the existence of concentration camps as work camps, but we knew nothing of what had been decided and brought into effect for the inmates of the concentration camps in the eastern territories. If Hitler had ever gone to one of those places, then we would have known, because the bodyguard was at his side around the clock. Wherever he went, we went too: from where he came, we came from there too. Our colleagues might have told me had I not been there myself. How could crimes of such enormity have remained such a well-kept secret?”

Excerpt From: Rochus Misch. “Hitler's Last Witness.”

That's among the more chilling aspects of this crime.

This is the problem with a lot of folk today when discussing anything historical. They assume that historical figures know what WE know today and it's a complete fallacy, especially in a period where the only portal of information was the wireless or what some bloke told you.

It would have been nigh on impossible for ANYONE to have have had actual knowledge that was bona fide, if they were not involved in a major capacity. A best, one would have to rely on rumour and hearsay which, during wartime, would have been wholly unreliable.

It didn't surprise me at all that Rochus Misch would have been completely ignorant of anything to do at Wannsee. Why wouldn't he? The vast majority of Nazi party members wouldn't have had a clue about Wannsee, or even Auschwitz, Chelmno or Sobibor for that matter. Those camps were built in Poland for a reason and anyone knowing anything did so because they needed to know.

And, as you say, the capacity for people to deliberately "not know" something becomes enormous during a war. Especially a war as devastating as WWII, where ordinary people, including Germans, are carried along by events just as much as anyone else.

The simple fact is, even if Germans had known about the true extent of Nazi crime, they would have been powerless to have done anything about it.

Tony EH · 12-07-2019 10:50am

blackwhite wrote: »

Just commenting on a pattern in your posting - but thanks for the not-so-thinly-veiled threats :rolleyes:

Don't become the first poster I hit the Report on. Is that clear enough for you.

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 11:03am

Lol as if the IRA were lovely lads apart from the antisemitism.

You can hardly defend their character.

blackwhite · 12-07-2019 11:04am

Tony EH wrote: »

Don't become the first poster I hit the Report on. Is that clear enough for you.

I guess that's one way to try and bully anyone away from debating :rolleyes:

Tony EH · 12-07-2019 11:06am

blackwhite wrote: »

I guess that's one way to try and bully anyone away from debating :rolleyes:

Saying someone is trying to "minimise anti Semitism" isn't debating.

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 11:08am

It might be useful if we decide to focus on the Irish Jewish community.

I think the other subject is emotive for some people and while it might seem like cowardice to back away from debate it might be a good idea.

Some people obviously have very different perceptions and ideas based probably on their upbringing and exposure to different versions of history. I don't think we will change minds.

But its just more likely the topic will be either closed or at least derailed.

I think enough posts have been devoted to it already.

steddyeddy · 12-07-2019 11:10am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Didn't Patrick Pearse want to create a throne in Ireland for King Wilhelm?

And wasn't Arthur Griffith's big idea that of a dual monarchy, like in the Austro Hungarian empire?

All of this was long before the Nazis, but there certainly was a willingness there to collaborate with the Germans. Anyway that's just a minor footnote, and not really relevant (but almost as interesting, I think, as Irish Jewish history)

These are individuals who would have traded one empire for another. Edward Simpson, former king of England had also similar goals. There was far more British collaboration with the Nazis with high up individuals than with Irish.

blackwhite · 12-07-2019 11:12am

Tony EH wrote: »

Saying someone is trying to "minimise anti Semitism" isn't debating.

If you make posts on a public forum, then don't be shocked if someone comments on them.

IMO, your posting on this and the thread in CA are falling into the same mistakes that Corbyn is making - ignoring or dismissing any concerns about antisemitism because you share other positions/beliefs with the accused.

blackwhite · 12-07-2019 11:16am

steddyeddy wrote: »

These are individuals who would have traded one empire for another. Edward Simpson, former king of England had also similar goals. There was far more British collaboration with the Nazis with high up individuals than with Irish.

The BUF in the mid 1930s were replete with members from "noble" families - and were pretty overtly anti-semetic.

If Hitler hadn't decided to turn west, I'd question whether the scale of support for facism in England would have declined as quickly as it did. If Germany had kept its focus Eastward only, I think there could have been considerable pressure on the British Govt to withdraw from hostilities by 1941/2

Tony EH · 12-07-2019 11:22am

blackwhite wrote: »

If you make posts on a public forum, then don't be shocked if someone comments on them.

IMO, your posting on this and the thread in CA are falling into the same mistakes that Corbyn is making - ignoring or dismissing any concerns about antisemitism because you share other positions/beliefs with the accused.

You have no idea what I "share" with anyone.

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 11:34am

DID YOU KNOW

That James Connolly gave out election pamphlets in Yiddish for the Jewish community?

And further more did you know that Dublin had its own specific dialect of Yiddish?

https://comeheretome.com/2010/03/01/james-connolly-yiddish-election-leaflet-1902/

steddyeddy · 12-07-2019 11:54am

The Switzers of Dublin who owned shops around Ireland were a Jewish family I think. I used to live in the lovely Terenure in Dublin and I knew a few Jewish people there. Terenure might seem rich now but decades ago it was full of tenements. The Jewish immigrants who came into Ireland came into extreme poverty a lot of the time and worked their way up from nothing.

Mad_maxx · 12-07-2019 12:15pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Did they have to be antisemitic? Did that help the founding of the state in anyway? No.

I don't believe the IRA were anti semetic

Mad_maxx · 12-07-2019 12:17pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Scratch the surface of the IRA and SF they are deeply ethno nationalist.

Everyone knows this. The multi cultural image is just a facade.

So are the DUP

Edgware · 12-07-2019 12:18pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I don't believe the IRA were anti semetic

Of course

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 12:19pm

odyssey06 · 12-07-2019 12:24pm

It would be interesting to see figures for how many Jewish people arrived in Ireland and intermarried \ assimilated.

I'm not 100% sure, but I was told that a great great grand-parent of mine was a Lithuanian Jew (would have been 1870s), though my family background is very much RC going back multiple generations.

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 12:26pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

So are the DUP

Well erm ..Yes?

Which is not surprising they are both from the same area.

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 12:30pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

It would be interesting to see figures for how many Jewish people arrived in Ireland and intermarried \ assimilated.

I would say its a lot. I know a few.

corner of hells · 12-07-2019 12:32pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

It would be interesting to see figures for how many Jewish people arrived in Ireland and intermarried \ assimilated.

I'm not 100% sure, but I was told that a great great grand-parent of mine was a Lithuanian Jew (would have been 1870s), though my family background is very much RC going back multiple generations.

I'd say quite a few , my wife's maiden name is Jewish , her and her sisters don't look like your typical white caucasian either.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 12-07-2019 12:40pm

corner of hells wrote: »

I'd say quite a few , my wife's maiden name is Jewish , her and her sisters don't look like your typical white caucasian either.

Actually yeah, a friend of mine has a typically Jewish surname, she is quite striking looking too.

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 12:42pm

corner of hells wrote: »

I'd say quite a few , my wife's maiden name is Jewish , her and her sisters don't look like your typical white caucasian either.

I actually think year ago it would have been even more common than now.

People couldn't go abroad to find jewish partners etc. They didn't have the money.

corner of hells · 12-07-2019 12:43pm

Amani Low Graphology wrote: »

Actually yeah, a friend of mine has a typically Jewish surname, she is quite striking looking too.

Is she a bit unbalanced?

who the fug · 12-07-2019 12:43pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The other version is that when it was shouted they were in 'Cork' due to language differences many people thought it was 'New York'.

Maureen Lipman used to joke that her family ended up in Hull because they just got off the boat at the first stop having no idea of the size of the Atlantic Ocean because in Russia there weren't any oceans.

My great grandfathers job was to meet people off the boats in Hull and shepherd them across the Pennines to Liverpool and onto a Cunard vessel.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 12-07-2019 12:45pm

corner of hells wrote: »

Is she a bit unbalanced?

When we were 17 we went to Oxegen. People brought slabs of cans, bottles of vodka and the like. This bitch brought a bottle of gin and a bottle of tonic.

Wibbs · 12-07-2019 12:51pm

The genetics bear this out. There's a fair chunk of admixture from folks where different Jewish lines migrated to. Which makes sense and just like any other groups that spread out into new lands and cultures.

Wibbs · 12-07-2019 12:57pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I actually think year ago it would have been even more common than now.

People couldn't go abroad to find jewish partners etc. They didn't have the money.

True and going further back there would have been a little less of the drive to preserve lines. Nowadays that would be more in play with some and like you say the vastly increased access to travel, never mind an actual Jewish state to move to if that was your thing. Access to potential partners is much higher now.

I did know one lad who headed off to Israel in the 80's. Didn't take though. Too bloody hot was one issue. Then again he was the colour of a milk bottle and had a touch of the ginger gene too. Game over.

I seem to recall hearing he moved to the US, Seattle I think.

corner of hells · 12-07-2019 1:03pm

Wibbs wrote: »

True and going further back there would have been a little less of the drive to preserve lines. Nowadays that would be more in play with some and like you say the vastly increased access to travel, never mind an actual Jewish state to move to if that was your thing. Access to potential partners is much higher now.

I did know one lad who headed off to Israel in the 80's. Didn't take though. Too bloody hot was one issue. Then again he was the colour of a milk bottle and had a touch of the ginger gene too. Game over. I seem to recall hearing he moved to the US, Seattle I think.

I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've a friend who's an Ethiopian Jew , a Falash I think is his tribes name.
During the famine , the Israelis airlifted his whole tribe to Israel, where he grew up.
Hes now married to a non Jew from Holland and lives here.
As he says himself, hes an Ethiopian, Israeli, Dutch ,Irishman.

12-07-2019 1:06pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

These are individuals who would have traded one empire for another. Edward Simpson, former king of England had also similar goals. There was far more British collaboration with the Nazis with high up individuals than with Irish.

Indeed

image?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F07%2Fqueen-nazi-salute.jpg&w=800&c=sc&poi=face&q=85

Ragnar Lothbrok · 12-07-2019 1:08pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Scratch the surface of the IRA and SF they are deeply ethno nationalist.

Everyone knows this. The multi cultural image is just a facade.

Complete and utter rubbish.

Instead of asking you if you've ever met a Jewish person, I'd be much more inclined to ask you "Have you ever met a Republican?"

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 1:12pm

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

Complete and utter rubbish.

Instead of asking you if you've ever met a Jewish person, I'd be much more inclined to ask you "Have you ever met a Republican?"

I am a jewish person.And yes i have met many republicans.

12-07-2019 1:16pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Scratch the surface of the IRA and SF they are deeply ethno nationalist.

Everyone knows this. The multi cultural image is just a facade.

Ah now. I will never vote SF in my life, but that's for economic reasons.

I'm anti-nationalist, but SF are not nationalist in the way that UKIP or Le Front National are. In many ways, they have outgrown that moniker, and can now only be described as republicans (with a small R).

"Scratch the surface..." often means "There's no evidence for what I'm saying but I would like to appeal to your suspicions".

In my view, the best thing about modern SF (again, never voted for them, never will) is their antipathy towards insular views of Irishness.

branie2 · 12-07-2019 1:16pm

Jesus was Jewish as well of course

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 1:20pm

corner of hells wrote: »

I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've a friend who's an Ethiopian Jew , a Falash I think is his tribes name.
During the famine , the Israelis airlifted his whole tribe to Israel, where he grew up.
Hes now married to a non Jew from Holland and lives here.
As he says himself, hes an Ethiopian, Israeli, Dutch ,Irishman.

Don't call them falash. Its pejorative and derogatory.

It just means 'outsider'. Its what they were called in Ethiopia.

They call themselves Beta Israel.

Yeah it was during the 80's. Think live aid era. There was a civil war going on at the same time.

The BBC did a documentary about it.

pawrick · 12-07-2019 1:22pm

One of my distant family lines was Jewish. Story as far as I know is that two brothers stopped off here on the way to the states pre WW1 from what was to become the Ukraine (spot of bother at the time with the Russians). One of them decided to stay and converted in order to marry while the other brother continued on to the states and his branch remained Jewish. Haven't looked much in to this tbh as there was more to go on with other family lines which are closer to me + had a more interesting history surprisingly enough.

Other than that i only know of one person who is Jewish and Irish living near me, old time farmer. No idea how he came to be in Westmeath or about his family history as I don't know him personally. Seems to keep to himself but was happy enough to tell us he was Jewish when we noticed he had a menorah.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 12-07-2019 3:00pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I am a jewish person.And yes i have met many republicans.

So have you, personally, been abused by Republicans purely because you're Jewish? Have you any evidence whatsoever that Sinn Féin is, and the IRA were, anti-semitic? When you "met many Republicans" did you specifically discuss politics, religion & anti-semitism with them?

Or, as I feel is more likely, do you just have a general problem with Sinn Féin & the Republican Movement? Which is fine, by the way, you're perfectly entitled to your own views. However, to claim your anti-Republicanism is due to anti-semitism within the Republican Movement is very disingenuous.

By the way, I'm not denying that the Republican Movement is pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli. There is a difference between that and anti-semitism, as well you know.

corner of hells · 12-07-2019 3:03pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Don't call them falash. Its pejorative and derogatory.

It just means 'outsider'. Its what they were called in Ethiopia.

They call themselves Beta Israel.

Yeah it was during the 80's. Think live aid era. There was a civil war going on at the same time.

The BBC did a documentary about it.

I am going to continue to call my friend a Falash as that is what he calls himself , to give you a little more detail he's what he describes as a Falash Mura
. Falash Mura are a thread of people who moved from Judaism to Christianity and back over period of hundreds of years , read carefully, it's his account.

Beta as you mention are a different thread of Judaism, who maintained there purity in Ethiopia over the generations, they were the original batch moved during the Ethiopian famine in the 80s .

My friends family all according to him arrived the same way but spent a short period of time in a camp before being assimilated into Israeli society.

No doubt you'll find an article somewhere and dispute every last word but that's life isn't it.

12-07-2019 3:07pm

Growing up in southside Dublin, our good neighbours across the road were Jewish. Always came over on Christmas morning to wish a happy Christmas, they attended all the funerals that took place on the road.

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 3:25pm

corner of hells wrote: »

I am going to continue to call my friend a Falash as that is what he calls himself , to give you a little more detail he's what he describes as a Falash Mura
. Falash Mura are a thread of people who moved from Judaism to Christianity and back over period of hundreds of years , read carefully, it's his account.

Beta as you mention are a different thread of Judaism, who maintained there purity in Ethiopia over the generations, they were the original batch moved during the Ethiopian famine in the 80s .

My friends family all according to him arrived the same way but spent a short period of time in a camp before being assimilated into Israeli society.

No doubt you'll find an article somewhere and dispute every last word but that's life isn't it.

If that is what he calls himself. I have heard others call it who don't like it though.

corner of hells · 12-07-2019 3:40pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

If that is what he calls himself. I have heard others call it who don't like it though.

I doubt that.

James Brown · 12-07-2019 3:48pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Scratch the surface of the IRA and SF they are deeply ethno nationalist.

Everyone knows this. The multi cultural image is just a facade.

That supposes people sign up to the party or vote for the party because the GFA was just for show and they only pretend to mean any all inclusive party policies with a wink and everyone is in on it.
What utter nonsense.

machaseh · 12-07-2019 3:50pm

I grew up in the Netherlands and I knew a fair amount of Jewish people there.

Here in Ireland the only 2 jewish people I know are both actually Israeli so.

Odhinn · 12-07-2019 3:55pm

Here's SF being Ethno-nationalists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkFAeruvv4s

Think they might be doing it wrong though. Can't quite put a finger on it.

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 4:08pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Here's SF being Ethno-nationalists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkFAeruvv4s

Think they might be doing it wrong though. Can't quite put a finger on it.

Here is them not being antisemitic.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/i-m-not-anti-semitic-lord-mayor-of-dublin-says-after-palestine-trip-1.3460728

Here is the then lord mayor of Dublin Mícheál Mac Donncha ( a member of SF) going to an event to honor Haj Amin al-Husseini.

Here is Hajj Amin al-Husseini BTW

1.5653987.1018316866.jpg

Here is Haj Amin Al Husseini with Heinrich Himmler.

Odhinn · 12-07-2019 4:10pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Here is them not being antisemitic.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/i-m-not-anti-semitic-lord-mayor-of-dublin-says-after-palestine-trip-1.3460728

He obviously wasn't aware of that individuals past. SF is not an anti-semetic party.

ILoveYourVibes · 12-07-2019 4:17pm

Odhinn wrote: »

He obviously wasn't aware of that individuals past. SF is not an anti-semetic party.

How could he NOT be aware of that individuals past? It was a focus of the event why do you think those people were there?

Further MORE if he was invited to such an event you KIND of have to worry about the kinds of people SF are close with.

All the other Grand Muftis there have been etc? Why that one?

Does strike you as odd?

Of course he knew.

And if he didn't know it kind of shows SF haven't the first CLUE about the middle east and should probably stop giving their clueless opinions on it.

Plus he isn't the only one.

https://eurojewcong.org/ejc-in-action/statements/ejc-calls-on-european-parliament-to-take-action-against-mep-who-compared-israelis-to-a-rash/

There is also the fact that SF support Hamas.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dup-attacks-sinn-fin-for-meeting-palestinian-militant-group-hamas-35249667.html

Ireland's Jewish community

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