Company requires smartphone for clocking in

billgibney · 12-09-2019 3:04pm #1

Hi my wife works in the local school as a agency cleaner, last month the contract was taken was taken over by another agency but she was retained
The new agency require her to have a smartphone with gps for clocking in purposes. She has a basic phone with no such capability.
Can they force her to get a smartphone?
Would they have to pay for the phone and data plan?
As she's on the minimum legal rate for contract cleaners (10.80 ph) this would bring her below that level.
Thanks in advance.

12-09-2019 4:23pm

She was transferred in under TUPE legislation, which basically means the same conditions as the previous employers. I cannot imagine that she would have to fork out for the phone out of her own pocket.

glomar · 12-09-2019 4:32pm

get them to pay for it

cruizer101 · 12-09-2019 4:35pm

Even if she had a smartphone I'm not sure I'd be agreeing to that.
Does she have to install an app that is monitoring her location to log the details.
I wouldn't be installing that on my phone, let them supply the phone if they want.

GBX · 12-09-2019 4:40pm

Unless they provided the phone, I wouldn't install it on my personal device. If they provided me with a phone and wanted to track it fine.

billgibney · 12-09-2019 5:07pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

Even if she had a smartphone I'm not sure I'd be agreeing to that.
Does she have to install an app that is monitoring her location to log the details.
I wouldn't be installing that on my phone, let them supply the phone if they want.

Yes there's a web link to a portal. When you go to the clocking section a mini Google map zooms in on your location.

billgibney · 12-09-2019 5:09pm

GBX wrote: »

Unless they provided the phone, I wouldn't install it on my personal device. If they provided me with a phone and wanted to track it fine.

They want her to buy a smartphone out of her own pocket and also upgrade her phone deal from calls and texts only to one with a data plan

12-09-2019 5:11pm

billgibney wrote: »

Yes there's a web link to a portal. When you go to the clocking section a mini Google map zooms in on your location.

Such a bizarre set up. It's so easy to spoof your location.

is_that_so · 12-09-2019 5:17pm

billgibney wrote: »

They want her to buy a smartphone out of her own pocket and also upgrade her phone deal from calls and texts only to one with a data plan

On a practical level is there no wifi in the school? You can get data plans from €10 a month from Tesco and basic phones from about €50.
What about contacting Workplace Relations? They seem to have a query page/form.
https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/contact_us/workplace_relations_enquiry/

is_that_so · 12-09-2019 5:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Such a bizarre set up. It's so easy to spoof your location.

Bit silly to do if you only work in one place!

billgibney · 12-09-2019 5:22pm

is_that_so wrote: »

On a practical level is there no wifi in the school? You can get data plans from €10 a month from Tesco and basic phones from about €50.

True but where we live Vodafone is the only decent service available here, also she prefers a non touch phone. Strange I know!
But the issue is they will be able to track her any time of day or night

is_that_so · 12-09-2019 5:23pm

billgibney wrote: »

True but where we live Vodafone is the only decent service available here, also she prefers a non touch phone. Strange I know!
But the issue is they will be able to track her any time of day or night

I am sure you can probably just disable the app.

billgibney · 12-09-2019 5:25pm

is_that_so wrote: »

I am sure you can probably just disable the app.

It's through chrome browser

is_that_so · 12-09-2019 5:26pm

billgibney wrote: »

It's through chrome browser

Then disable Chrome on the phone. It will be listed as an app.

billgibney · 12-09-2019 5:37pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Then disable Chrome on the phone. It will be listed as an app.

And should the employer pay for the new phone?

my3cents · 12-09-2019 5:41pm

If this is just done through a web site then why not ask the school if they can leave a computer on and connected to the internet so she can use that to clock in and out?

jimmycrackcorm · 12-09-2019 5:41pm

billgibney wrote: »

She has a basic phone with no such capability.

I totally take your word for this.
No they won't be buying your wife a shiny new phone.

TheChizler · 12-09-2019 5:47pm

is_that_so wrote: »

I am sure you can probably just disable the app.

Enable/disable location services. Swipe down from the home screen, tap location.

is_that_so · 12-09-2019 5:48pm

billgibney wrote: »

And should the employer pay for the new phone?

I linked to Workplace Relations above. Perhaps ask them?

D13exile · 12-09-2019 5:54pm

Are there not data protection issues here, as in she will be monitored by the employer who can track the phone? AFAIK, monitoring of staff is illegal unless there is a clear case of criminal goings on. Surely the fact that the work is getting done is sufficient for the employer? Do they not have roving Supervisors who can call in to spot check the work and see if the employees are on site?

endacl · 12-09-2019 6:00pm

D13exile wrote: »

Are there not data protection issues here, as in she will be monitored by the employer who can track the phone? AFAIK, monitoring of staff is illegal unless there is a clear case of criminal goings on. Surely the fact that the work is getting done is sufficient for the employer? Do they not have roving Supervisors who can call in to spot check the work and see if the employees are on site?

If they pay for a phone and the bill, and she leaves it in work, there won’t ever be an issue. It’ll be an over complicated and overexpensive clock in system, but that’s the company’s issue.

12-09-2019 6:02pm

If it's just a website, they can't track it when that site is closed.

is_that_so · 12-09-2019 6:07pm

endacl wrote: »

If they pay for a phone and the bill, and she leaves it in work, there won’t ever be an issue. It’ll be an over complicated and overexpensive clock in system, but that’s the company’s issue.

Not that expensive if potential employees know what's expected of them. I know of a company who uses something like this but they also use it as a recruitment and application tool as well.

Peregrinus · 13-09-2019 8:31am

If they require her to have a phone, they need to provide the phone and pay the associated bills. Assuming she is protected under the Transfer of Undertakings regulations, they cannot simply introduce a term into her contract of employment requiring her to provide a smartphone for work purposes at her own expense.

I understand her concerns about privacy and location tracking. She can address these by not turning the phone on, except when she needs to for work purposes (i.e. to log in when she arrives at her workplace, and presumably again when she leaves). She already has her own phone which is satisfactory for all her personal needs and she can continue to use that.

knipex · 13-09-2019 8:49am

D13exile wrote:

Are there not data protection issues here, as in she will be monitored by the employer who can track the phone? AFAIK, monitoring of staff is illegal unless there is a clear case of criminal goings on. Surely the fact that the work is getting done is sufficient for the employer? Do they not have roving Supervisors who can call in to spot check the work and see if the employees are on site?

I would think that at least 70% of the company Van's out there are tracked by employer's. Probably a good portion of the company cars.

All those service engineers, delivery drivers, maintenance guys etc with tablets / phones that take electronic signature would have realtime tracking.

Once the worker is aware that the item is tracked, and where how the data is collected and what it is used for then there is no issue..

Peregrinus · 13-09-2019 9:11am

knipex wrote: »

I would think that at least 70% of the company Van's out there are tracked by employer's. Probably a good portion of the company cars.

All those service engineers, delivery drivers, maintenance guys etc with tablets / phones that take electronic signature would have realtime tracking.

Once the worker is aware that the item is tracked, and where how the data is collected and what it is used for then there is no issue..

Tracking somebody while they're working, while knowing where they are is relevant to the job they do, is fine, so long as they understand they are or may be being tracked.

Tracking somebody 24/7, not so much.

"Why would your employer want to track you 24/7?", I hear you cry, and you have a point. They probably wouldn't. And even if they were collecting the data because they couldn't be bothered to configure their system not to, they probably don't look at it, and quite possibly don't even realise they have it. Still, I understand the concerns. "Trust us not to abuse this data. The innocent have nothing to fear." is never a very reassuring thing to hear.

salmocab · 13-09-2019 9:18am

She should just say I don’t have a smart phone. See what they come back with then. They can’t force her to get one so either they can supply one or she they can come up with an alternative. I wouldn’t be making any sort of deal out of it.

Glass fused light · 13-09-2019 12:33pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Tracking somebody while they're working, while knowing where they are is relevant to the job they do, is fine, so long as they understand they are or may be being tracked.

Tracking somebody 24/7, not so much.

"Why would your employer want to track you 24/7?", I hear you cry, and you have a point. They probably wouldn't. And even if they were collecting the data because they couldn't be bothered to configure their system not to, they probably don't look at it, and quite possibly don't even realise they have it. Still, I understand the concerns. "Trust us not to abuse this data. The innocent have nothing to fear." is never a very reassuring thing to hear.

From memory this went thought the Data Protection Commissioner a few years ago the company vehicles had to have a tracker with a manual off switch that the driver controlled and the same with any IT once off the clock the employer has no basis for collecting the data, so collection or retaining it without accessing it is a breach

Phileas Frog · 13-09-2019 12:36pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Tracking somebody while they're working, while knowing where they are is relevant to the job they do, is fine, so long as they understand they are or may be being tracked.

Tracking somebody 24/7, not so much.

"Why would your employer want to track you 24/7?", I hear you cry, and you have a point. They probably wouldn't. And even if they were collecting the data because they couldn't be bothered to configure their system not to, they probably don't look at it, and quite possibly don't even realise they have it. Still, I understand the concerns. "Trust us not to abuse this data. The innocent have nothing to fear." is never a very reassuring thing to hear.

Where are you getting the 24/7 tracking in the OPs example? They go to a website in a browser to clock in/out. That's all. There's no tracking other than these 2 incidents at the beginning and end of every shift.

LeBash · 13-09-2019 12:53pm

I'm fairly sure your wife could explain that she doesnt have a smart phone and could email her hours when she has finished or call in the hours.

My guess is it's just used as a Proof of Delivery of service in a way. They will have a record of when work started and finished. It would probably be used only if the end client was querying a bill.

Del2005 · 13-09-2019 12:56pm

LeBash wrote: »

I'm fairly sure your wife could explain that she doesnt have a smart phone and could email her hours when she has finished or call in the hours.

My guess is it's just used as a Proof of Delivery of service in a way. They will have a record of when work started and finished. It would probably be used only if the end client was querying a bill.

How can she email a location when she doesn't have a smart phone?

petros1980 · 13-09-2019 1:35pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I totally take your word for this.
No they won't be buying your wife a shiny new phone.

Such a funny response, dope :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

OP - the easy answer is no they can't force your wife to buy a smartphone any more than they could force her to buy anything else

tomwaits48 · 13-09-2019 2:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Such a bizarre set up. It's so easy to spoof your location.

how?

Seth Brundle · 13-09-2019 2:54pm

tomwaits48 wrote: »

how?

https://tinyurl.com/y583v8ht

Glass fused light · 14-09-2019 8:43am

LeBash wrote: »

I'm fairly sure your wife could explain that she doesnt have a smart phone and could email her hours when she has finished or call in the hours.

My guess is it's just used as a Proof of Delivery of service in a way. They will have a record of when work started and finished. It would probably be used only if the end client was querying a bill.

Its more likely the proof of delivery.
I have seen this introduced by a care company where proof that the staff member turnd up is a manual clock in and out from the landline number of the service receiver. So it's independently verifiable by the State if they need to by checking the phone records

knipex · 16-09-2019 12:58pm

Glass fused light wrote: »

From memory this went thought the Data Protection Commissioner a few years ago the company vehicles had to have a tracker with a manual off switch that the driver controlled and the same with any IT once off the clock the employer has no basis for collecting the data, so collection or retaining it without accessing it is a breach

Only and only if the vehicle was supplied and specified allowed to be used for personal use.

A company vehicle that's only for company use does not require this facility..

Glass fused light · 16-09-2019 3:56pm

knipex wrote: »

Only and only if the vehicle was supplied and specified allowed to be used for personal use.

A company vehicle that's only for company use does not require this facility..

Yep
Technically if the employee can nip down to the shops over lunch in a vehicle it's personal use.

But in real life once the company expect the vehicle back in the premises at close of business and the employee finds their own way home, the company would not have to install a off switch.

knipex · 16-09-2019 6:54pm

Glass fused light wrote: »

Yep
Technically if the employee can nip down to the shops over lunch in a vehicle it's personal use.

But in real life once the company expect the vehicle back in the premises at close of business and the employee finds their own way home, the company would not have to install a off switch.

Absolutely not true.

A van can be used to travel to and from place of work and not have a "switch" fitted.

The policy on use of vehicles needs to take into account the use of trackers and specify what the vehicle can be used for. It can even allow some Limited personal use and not require the fitting of a switch. As long as everything is known, nothing is begin done in secret then there is no problem.

Fair is fair. My employer has my address anyway so the fact that the tracker shows its at my house, so what. I don't have wear and tear and fuel on my car, can spend an extra half hour in bed in the morning and home earlier most evenings. If I need to pick up something from the hardware store or garden center or drop something to the recycling center the boss is OK about it. Then why the f**k would I make a big deal.

On the other hand if it was a company car and I worked from home, the car was used as my main means of transport, then switch needs to be fitted.

Company requires smartphone for clocking in

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