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Which conspiracy theories are real and which are not?
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If he wants his theories to be taken seriously, he needs evidence. Either evidence he has produced himself, or working off accepted evidence produced elsewhere.
It's fine to explore other theories that are grounded in the available knowledge, but if you write entire books focused on astonishing theories without evidence, with a track record of several thoroughly discredited previous theories (eg Mars), how can you expect to be taken seriously?
Even if what he said about a comet strike is proven to be correct, it proves exactly zero of his other claims (that it wiped out a global advanced civilisation), and one could be severe and say "even a stopped clock is right twice a day." What matters is not to be right, you can be lucky that a hunch is proven to be correct - what matters is the evidence. And just because one hunch is correct, again, unless you are following a process it is just a lucky guess. That process is evidence based. So it is not just that we disagree on what we think happened, but on how we arrive at the truth of that.
He has pivoted from real evidence to a wild speculation about a lost global civilisation that pre-dates Gobekli by thousands of years. At the moment they are just flights of fancy. Epic, astonishing, inventive flights of fancy but flights of fancy nonetheless.
The differences in complexities of hunter gatherer societies, their variations across the world and across thousands of years is a fascinating subject - and one for the anthropology forum; but it doesn't need Hancock's explanations, and there is no conspiracy to prevent the truth from coming out (this is a thread about conspiracy theories after all, which is why I keep repeating it).
We don't have the answers to the interesting questions raised by the discoveries at Gobekli, and right now that is a more solid answer than... it was a refuge built by the remnants of a lost global advanced civilisation.
Graham in the interviews I watched is just describing a scenario that may have happened in the ancient past that's all. He was writing books about lost civilizations in the early 90s, during a period of time, scholars said there no evidence for it, therefore Graham work is pusedo-archaeology.
Shmidt work at Gobekli tepe in my opinion though has radically changed the former perceived understanding of neolithic history. I don’t think its wild speculation after they find a 11,000 year old tablet stones depicting a devastating event occuring on earth caused by comets. Scientists were unsure what caused the younger dryas cooling period, now we have possible answer to this time old question at Gobekli tepe. This comet event was so dramatic it may have effected global climate and caused human extinction events on earth.
Graham theory is there was survivors and they went to different corners of the earth after they event. I don’t think its an implausible scenario. Since it clear at Gobekli tepe someone in 11,000 bc or earlier was describing on stone a memory of the past. Since these people disappeared fom history and the site was buried for thousands of years we have no clue as to who they really were. When only 10 per cent of site dug so far, maybe we learn more in time.
You don’t have to accept it and sure you don’t, but I open to it based on the findings so far. If Modern civilization was taken out today, would we go back to stone age, and would be able to crawl our way out, and begin again and what would that look like?. Would survivors hold onto what happened and recall later what happened to them- for me this what Gobekli tepe might be a record of past events. Perhaps this is what happened and just let Graham speak about instead of attacking him for his speculation.
Regarding Mars, i still have not seen evidence he said on planet mars surface you find a human-faced structure. I seen you guys provide links to negative articles from someone else and not from Graham himself.0 -
So it's one giant what if?0
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So it's one giant what if?
Yes and no. If he just stuck to the what if he would not get such a hammering. He claims the pyramids are thousands of years older than accepted and built with knowledge from this pre younger dryas civilisation. There is also an angle about shamanism, mind expanding drugs and that this is partly how the ancients had such advanced knowledge.
Some of the stuff is intriguing in a wouldnt it be mind blowing if ... but it is not something to be believed as likely on the basis of the available evidence v the scope of the claims. He puts a lot of ideas out there that some of them might stick but he bounces from idea to idea because the ideas have no grounding.
I remember watching some of his Channel 4 docs as a teenager and being intrigued. But sometimes mundane reality has to be accepted over the wondrous theory."To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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Yes and no. If he just stuck to the what if he would not get such a hammering. He claims the pyramids are thousands of years older than accepted and built with knowledge from this pre younger dryas civilisation. There is also an angle about shamanism, mind expanding drugs and that this is partly how the ancients had such advanced knowledge.
Some of the stuff is intriguing in a wouldnt it be mind blowing if ... but it is not something to be believed as likely on the basis of the available evidence v the scope of the claims. He puts a lot of ideas out there that some of them might stick but he bounces from idea to idea because the ideas have no grounding.
I remember watching some of his Channel 4 docs as a teenager and being intrigued. But sometimes mundane reality has to be accepted over the wondrous theory.
People who have viewed this honestly have all said the science is sound the Sphinx is much older then the record states. There evidence of water erosion. If the Sphinx is older there high chance the Great Pyramid at Giza is older also.
Great Pyramid at Giza is accepted to be a better design what came later was much worse. and this is evidence of a decline in work standard. It accepted you get better at it over time not worse.
Despite what the Egyptologists claim they have no record as to who build the Great Pyramid. It is true there was an attempt to replicate it by the Egyptians and this why is so easy to dismiss the alternative history . Fact is though the designers and builders of the Great Pyramid seemed to be more knowledgable and better at building large Pyramids.
It widely accepted by academics ancient cultures, took drugs, to connect with the spirit world.0 -
So it's one giant what if?
Irish folklore and myth is pretty crazy too. If you read the book of invasions, it alternative history of Ireland written by christen monks in the 11th century. They describe alien beings coming to Ireland onboard flying ships. And lived here thousands of years ago. Pretty weird stuff. Folklore you learned stems from these legends handed down over centuries, time travel, other worlds like tir na og, you know it i think?
Crazy thing one of the legends describes a invading group coming to Ireland from Spain, very long ago and was considered a stuff of legend. When DNA experts looked at Irish DNA they discovered their closest relations were to the people in Basque region. The Milesians were described in book of Invasions as Gaels who originated from North Spain. Odd stuff.
What if indeed.0 -
The Milesians were co-opted (as were the Sycthians for the Fir Bolg) as a way to give the Irish biblical heritage. The Spanish DNA thing reflects common ancestry not a source.0
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Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »People who have viewed this honestly have all said the science is sound the Sphinx is much older then the record states. There evidence of water erosion. If the Sphinx is older there high chance the Great Pyramid at Giza is older also. Great Pyramid at Giza is accepted to be a better design what came later was much worse. and this is evidence of a decline in work standard. It accepted you get better at it over time not worse.
Really, then how come bridges are collapsing in Italy despite being 50 years old when other bridges 100 years old are still standing?
And do all the people who have viewed this believe that the reason why the pyramid was designed better is because they received help from the inheritors of the knowledge of a lost global civilisation?
You're not providing proof of anything. You're just creating uncertainty and then into this uncertainty proposing a speculative theory with absolutely zero evidence.It widely accepted by academics ancient cultures, took drugs, to connect with the spirit world.
What's not widely accepted, which is the premise of Supernatural (2005) & Magicians of the Gods (2015) by Graham Hancock, is that there was an ancient culture who:
- Had shamans who took mind altering drugs
- The shamans entered spirit trances and encountered beings
- These beings passed on advanced knowledge to the shamans
- The shamans returned from the spirit trances with this knowledge
- This knowledge was use to found a pre younger dryas advanced global civilisation, a civilisation with ocean going ships
- This civilisation was wiped out in a comet strike during the younger dryas (note that whether a comet strike did occur is a still a current matter of scientific discussion)
- Remnants of this civilisation established a refuge at Göbekli Tepe (and despite having 'advanced knowledge' left no traces of metallurgy, writing or pottery that have been discovered in over a decade of archaeological work)
- Remnants of this civilisation, or knowledge from them, were involved in the construction of the Great Pyramid"To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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The Milesians were cooptes as a way to give the Irish biblical heritage. The Spanish DNA thing reflects common ancestry not a source.
Partly true. The myth and legends were solely from Keltic culture in Ireland and then in 11th century Ireland Christen monks spun some of it to match their own religion and biblical legends and myths, i agree.
All i saying is one legend claimed a very large invading army arrived in Ireland (3000BC maybe wrong about this date, a while since i read this) and did battle with the fairies ( tuatha de Danann) and after signing a treaty the fewer number the fairies agreed to go underground or to another world beside our own. Its very weird stuff, in this book and no evidence its happened at all, yet it book written about the origins of the Irish and people before them.
It just kind of cool in 11th century, monks were claiming some large force came from north Spain to Ireland, and science has caught up and seemly is confirming a migration of people came from there to Ireland long ago and they were the ancestors of the Irish. There no evidence of spanish invasion before this, i can pin point to explain it differently?0 -
There is no DNA evidence supporting a Spanish invasion; when DNA testing was in it's early stages it was discovered that there was a mutation on the Y Chromosome (a tiny tiny part of the Y Chromosome which in itself is only about 2% of the entire genome, and women don't carry it) that was found in very high level sin Wales, Scotland, Ireland and particularly the Basque region of Spain.
At first this mutation was estimated to have been about 15,000 years old or so and there were a lot of assumptions made: high frequency in modern population in an area that may have been habitable during the ice age equals place of origin.
As more testing was done, technology improved it was discovered that the mutation was not as old as once thought and older subgroups were found further East with younger ones found in the West.
The R1b-M269 haplogroup which dominates Western Europe got broke into two groups which are around the same age (4,500 to 5,500 years old): P312 and U106. U106 correlates very well in Germanic areas and P312 with areas associated with Celt Italic languages (and these groups have been found in DNA samples from the Bronze Age, they don't appear in Western Europe before that), P312 is then split into three groups: U152 (mainly found in Central Europe, Alps/Italy and even in Bashkirs), DF27 is found mainly in Iberia and L21 is found in the Isles. These groups are first cousins so to speak and anyone carrying them shares common ancestry and one can not have come from the other, the entry point into Western Europe looks like the Pontic Caspian steppe and was spread by the Yamnaya group initially and then further west by the bell beakers, the numbers grew rapidly as the society seemed to be male dominated and patriarchal which is what we see later in the Gaelic era.
The fairies in the book of invasions were just the celtic gods personified (with the Fomor being a darker counterpoint), the only group of the seven mentioned in the book of invasions that has any historical basis is the Fir Bolg who seemed liked to the group called the Laighin, which gave Leinster it's name.
Given how conspiracy theories can spread misinformation in hours, god only knows what happened with oral history in the past over years and centuries.0 -
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Really, then how come bridges are collapsing in Italy despite being 50 years old when other bridges 100 years old are still standing?
And do all the people who have viewed this believe that the reason why the pyramid was designed better is because they received help from the inheritors of the knowledge of a lost global civilisation?
You're not providing proof of anything. You're just creating uncertainty and then into this uncertainty proposing a speculative theory with absolutely zero evidence.
What's not widely accepted, which is the premise of Supernatural (2005) & Magicians of the Gods (2015) by Graham Hancock, is that there was an ancient culture who:
- Had shamans who took mind altering drugs
- The shamans entered spirit trances and encountered beings
- These beings passed on advanced knowledge to the shamans
- The shamans returned from the spirit trances with this knowledge
- This knowledge was use to found a pre younger dryas advanced global civilisation, a civilisation with ocean going ships
- This civilisation was wiped out in a comet strike during the younger dryas (note that whether a comet strike did occur is a still a current matter of scientific discussion)
- Remnants of this civilisation established a refuge at Göbekli Tepe (and despite having 'advanced knowledge' left no traces of metallurgy, writing or pottery that have been discovered in over a decade of archaeological work)
- Remnants of this civilisation, or knowledge from them, were involved in the construction of the Great Pyramid
Italy has been conquered and annexed mutiple times throughout human history by multiple distinct groups, and tribes. Building of roads and bridges is not a good example.
The claim here is Egyptians build every Pyramid. So it bit odd building standards took a step back and were nowhere as impressive as the original great pyramid at Giza. In book of thoth it claimed it was build by a god, which often means a people before them as they very different. Again it long time ago, so we never know for sure, but there literally nothing to show the Egyptians build the great Pyramid at GIZA, the only fact about this is they tried to repeat it and never succeeded successfully.
You still ignoring for your own reason only 10 per cent of Göbekli Tepe is dug out and seen, about 90 per cent still underground and hidden. You can't claim there not new discoveries there to be found and that may prove Graham theory further?0 -
There is no DNA evidence supporting a Spanish invasion; when DNA testing was in it's early stages it was discovered that there was a mutation on the Y Chromosome (a tiny tiny part of the Y Chromosome which in itself is only about 2% of the entire genome, and women don't carry it) that was found in very high level sin Wales, Scotland, Ireland and particularly the Basque region of Spain.
At first this mutation was estimated to have been about 15,000 years old or so and there were a lot of assumptions made: high frequency in modern population in an area that may have been habitable during the ice age equals place of origin.
As more testing was done, technology improved it was discovered that the mutation was not as old as once thought and older subgroups were found further East with younger ones found in the West.
The R1b-M269 haplogroup which dominates Western Europe got broke into two groups which are around the same age (4,500 to 5,500 years old): P312 and U106. U106 correlates very well in Germanic areas and P312 with areas associated with Celt Italic languages (and these groups have been found in DNA samples from the Bronze Age, they don't appear in Western Europe before that), P312 is then split into three groups: U152 (mainly found in Central Europe, Alps/Italy and even in Bashkirs), DF27 is found mainly in Iberia and L21 is found in the Isles. These groups are first cousins so to speak and anyone carrying them shares common ancestry and one can not have come from the other, the entry point into Western Europe looks like the Pontic Caspian steppe and was spread by the Yamnaya group initially and then further west by the bell beakers, the numbers grew rapidly as the society seemed to be male dominated and patriarchal which is what we see later in the Gaelic era.
The fairies in the book of invasions were just the celtic gods personified (with the Fomor being a darker counterpoint), the only group of the seven mentioned in the book of invasions that has any historical basis is the Fir Bolg who seemed liked to the group called the Laighin, which gave Leinster it's name.
Given how conspiracy theories can spread misinformation in hours, god only knows what happened with oral history in the past over years and centuries.
How can you know for sure the Keltic legends and myths are not partily true? We assume lot based on our limited understanding of world back then. Its height of human ignorance to think we know everything and just dismiss it out of hand..
Even researchers are seeing markers this may have actually happened. Not everyone will agree with them, but least there something tangible there to be found. I never throw away all legends and myth, it might be those ancient cultures orally describing real events that may have took place, and just changed and morphed slightly over time.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/is-distinctive-dna-marker-proof-of-ancient-genocide-1.14261970 -
Where do you start with what could be true (one eyed Formorians on Tory Island, I know its Donegal but still)? Also look into the context in which the stories were written: by Christian monks who just happen to give the origins as mainly christian. These stories represent what they wanted the origins to be not what they know them to be.
Mil Despain was chosen as he had an lineage to Noah, that he was Spanish was also nice as at the time Isidore of Seville was very prominent and it was prestigious to be linked to the country he came from. I'm not saying these stories should be thrown out altogether, from a heritage point of view they are priceless, just not accurate.
And it wasn't just an Irish thing, later you had the Plantagenets creating a link to King Arthur in order to give them legitimacy over Wales.0 -
Where do you start with what could be true (one eyed Formorians on Tory Island, I know its Donegal but still)? Also look into the context in which the stories were written: by Christian monks who just happen to give the origins as mainly christian. These stories represent what they wanted the origins to be not what they know them to be.
Mil Despain was chosen as he had an lineage to Noah, that he was Spanish was also nice as at the time Isidore of Seville was very prominent and it was prestigious to be linked to the country he came from. I'm not saying these stories should be thrown out altogether, from a heritage point of view they are priceless, just not accurate.
And it wasn't just an Irish thing, later you had the Plantagenets creating a link to King Arthur in order to give them legitimacy over Wales.
Some of it yes. Clearly the Tuatha de dannann are not christen, they are depicted as pagan gods. Descriptions of them they appear to be human Greeks, just may take on it. They have the apperance and remarkably similar to the greeks gods ( in Irish myth the fairies had blonde hair) same in the Greek odyseey. I not opposed the tuatha de dannan were somehow greeks that somehow made all the way to Ireland by sailboat.
The weird aspect though for me.
I'm a believer in UFOs and i believe origins are not us humans. People have described human looking beings onboard UFOs. Travis Walton UFO case just one example, and some of the beings he claimed he saw allegedly were human looking and had blonde hair. Is is true i was not there, but descriptions of a blonde hair race is very prevalent in Ufology.
King arthur is based on celtic legend. Obviously the sword pulled from the stone is hard to believe, but that can be traced back to stone of destiny that supposedly a magic stone the tuatha de dannann had brought from Hy Brazil- which in celtic lore is another name for Atlantis.
I agree it none of this proven historical fact, but it interests me personally.0 -
Some interesting thoughts here on Irish mythology. I remember reading books about Fionn, Tir Na Nog and so on. And then there is Hy Brasil. Some link Fionn and the Fianna to King Arthur and his Knights. There is massive debate about if Fionn, Chu Chulainn/Setanta, King Arthur and other famous individuals of Celtic mythology were 100% fiction or based on real people.
The likes of Tir Na Nog and Hy Brasil along with Avalon and Atlantis are often depicted as lands across the sea in mythology. Sometimes, heavenly and supernatural things happen in such legends. Fairies, giants, etc. appear too in many tales. Unicorns as well get mentioned.
Various groups that came to Ireland are said to have come from Spain, Iran, Central Europe and Russia among others. We know languages spoken from Ireland to India are related and that many peoples from disparate areas are ethnically related too. Some of the names for peoples include Scythians (an Iranian group relating to Persians and Central Asians), Milesians (based in Spain before Ireland but some say from Western and Central Asia before that) and Celts (from Turkey/Greece to Central Europe).
What is more controversial is the view of some that there was once a global empire and that the people we know know as Europeans, Persian Iranians, Europeans, Egyptians, Maya and Aztec were all once part of the same civilisation. Some or all may even be the same race of people. The view is the Egyptian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Phoenician, Minoan, Mayan, Aztec, etc. civilisations that came afterwards was the continuation of these after an apocalyptic event broke the links between the Western side (the Americas) from the Eastern side (Europe, North Africa, Turkey, Iran). Such people say the Indo-European language, pyramids and Irish myth apparently linking to Persepolis are 'evidence' of this. They claim tales such as Atlantis and Noah's Ark/The Great Flood are details of the apocalypse that disrupted the once global civilisation.
My view is that there is some truth in all this. Suppose let's say the Caspian sea and Black sea were formed due to a flood, then the 'Noahs' would have to either move or get on a boat. Someone could move from an area in the sea to the north of what is now called Mazandaran and could then end up in what is now Baku and move West. Perhaps, Scythians, etc. all moved West and settled eventually in Spain?
Then, there's the giants, fairies and unicorns. Some say the Celts were much taller than inhabitants of Western Europe and there may be a time when 2 races existed in Ireland: one much taller than the other. Perhaps, they viewed each other with mistrust as giants and fairies. Unicorns, horses with horns, remind me very much of the rhinoceros. We must remember North Africa then was more fertile than now and such creatures could be reported back to other lands as 'horses with horns'.
We have to remember of course fact mixed in with myth and it was passed down generations. In the end, whatever fact there was in stories became diluted very much so as that all the stories ended up in the end virtually 100% fiction. Atlantis may well have been about a vague link between Europe/Africa and lands we now called the Americas. But other things got added in like the demise of the Minoan area of Thera and Greek politics and Greek deities. In the end, Atlantis was virtually 100% Plato's. Perhaps in a similar manner, Tir Na Nog was a more advanced region where people had better food and shelter so aged less. When they came back to a less well off area, they aged more profoundly. This is the same today. Look at this map (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Countries_by_average_life_expectancy_%282015%29.png/1024px-Countries_by_average_life_expectancy_%282015%29.png) and you even see countries beside each other (Iran and Afghanistan, Algeria and Mali being examples) with radically different life expectancies.0 -
That Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't the only reason JFK was died.0
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OK I have to say I'm new here. so no offense intended, I've being lurking in the background and making my own assumptions of what has happened with some of the best conspiracy theories, and thank you all for sharing your insights with me as a lurker.
Ok I have not a theory (it's way more odd ball than that) It's about the idea behind the matrix films (Red or Blue pill theory) obviously that is just Hollywood, but from my lurcking maybe it is a reality problem, call it as you may see it sociology or psychology, or even philosophy, (the unmeasurable sciences) there is one thing we all have in common and it's that out believe systems are very hard to break. If one person believes something that is important to them, then they will hold on to it for dear life.
So my thought is why do we love conspiracy theories, and why do we think we can solve them, (I think I understand that part of them concept) but when does an opinion become fact to certain people, that they become unshakable, what is the pivot point when that happens.
Now don't get me wrong, this thread has being amazing and as I said I love being a dective as well, and I learnt a lot. But it still is the back of my mind what is the motivation behind conspiracy theories and why people believe in the most outlandish things (which in this theard I'm still digesting the information , but I think might be able to answer this, Thank you) How do people on this thread decide what is acurate information and hoax information?
(I'm think about Gemma OD here)
Hence why I suggesting the biggest conspiracy theory is the (Blue or Red Pill Theory) why cause you're believe system is very hard to shift.
PS the Blue or Red Pill Theory (and it has something to do with someones reality) I just made up because it was from the matrixs, but the rest of what I said still stands sometimes we are, our own worst conspiracist.
Theories Anyone?0 -
OK I have to say I'm new here. so no offense intended, I've being lurking in the background and making my own assumptions of what has happened with some of the best conspiracy theories, and thank you all for sharing your insights with me as a lurker.
Ok I have not a theory (it's way more odd ball than that) It's about the idea behind the matrix films (Red or Blue pill theory) obviously that is just Hollywood, but from my lurcking maybe it is a reality problem, call it as you may see it sociology or psychology, or even philosophy, (the unmeasurable sciences) there is one thing we all have in common and it's that out believe systems are very hard to break. If one person believes something that is important to them, then they will hold on to it for dear life.
So my thought is why do we love conspiracy theories, and why do we think we can solve them, (I think I understand that part of them concept) but when does an opinion become fact to certain people, that they become unshakable, what is the pivot point when that happens.
Now don't get me wrong, this thread has being amazing and as I said I love being a dective as well, and I learnt a lot. But it still is the back of my mind what is the motivation behind conspiracy theories and why people believe in the most outlandish things (which in this theard I'm still digesting the information , but I think might be able to answer this, Thank you) How do people on this thread decide what is acurate information and hoax information?
(I'm think about Gemma OD here)
Hence why I suggesting the biggest conspiracy theory is the (Blue or Red Pill Theory) why cause you're believe system is very hard to shift.
PS the Blue or Red Pill Theory (and it has something to do with someones reality) I just made up because it was from the matrixs, but the rest of what I said still stands sometimes we are, our own worst conspiracist.
Theories Anyone?
It appears certain people believe in some of the more surreal conspiracy theories because they have difficulty handling the fact that the world is an out of control and chaotic space. To these individuals there is often a "guiding hand" behind significant or unbelievable world events. And since many of these people share the same paranoid or anti-authoritarian world views, it follows that the culprits of these acts often take on the form of all controlling nefarious entities, the usual suspects being the Jews, the US government, the NWO, Illuminati and so on. An elite group that has to power the pull the strings behind the scenes
What's quite telling is that often these types of individuals rarely want to actually solve their dogmatic conspiracy theories, rather maintain them as almost religious style beliefs0 -
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The Late Late Show wrote: »Conspiracy theories that work best tend to be based partly on fact. Four of the most popular ones of recent times are these:
Kennedy: It is clear that Kennedy was shot dead. It is clear someone wanted him dead. It is not so clear who. Perfect scenario for as many conspiracy theories as you like here. Dead JFK made a lot of people very wealthy and this topic shows few signs of being forgotten any time soon despite over 50 years.
Elvis is alive: Elvis Presley was a very talented singer who shot to fame and between 1954 and 1977, achieved things few if any others did. But despite his success, he was often not happy with how his career was controlled by management and he was depressed sometimes. Some claim he wanted to get away from it all and faked his own death in conspiracy theories. Books were written by a 'doctor' who was supposed to be treating the Elvis in hiding and others said a wax work was in the coffin not Elvis himself.
The moon landings and Area 51: 50 years ago, man landed on the moon according to most. But to some, it was a hoax filmed (possibly by Stanley Kubrick) in Nevada. Area 51 is linked into it to: to some, this holds secret alien remains but others claim it has the set used for the moon landings. Some also point to the flag fluttering in wind, the by today's standard primitive technology or deadly radiation belts as reasons why man could not get to the moon.
9/11: Sure, aren't conspiracy theories just harmless issues to create pub discussions or amateur debating society topics? Yes but not all are so 'harmless'. 9/11 conspiracies have been causing trouble for years. Some claim it was an inside job done by America to justify war. Some claim it was a Mossad job. In turn, some Americans tried to link 9/11 to Iraq to justify war and also tried to link it to Iran as well. 9/11 conspiracy theories have caused REAL problems that is for sure.
The point is conspiracy theories can be used to justify any point. Some believe in them and use them to form their world view. For example, Neo-Nazis tend to be holocaust deniers because it makes Nazism look a lot better (when you remove its most evil act). Denying an event happened (or didn't happen in the way it was reported) often is standard defense. Holocaust denial has been copied by others who want to divert attention away from issues that make them look worse: fake news and all that. Conspiracy theories are more plentiful now than ever and when they get believed can cause trouble.
Let us assume that 9\11 was not an inside. I'm not saying it was or it wasn't buts lets just assume so for the sake of argument
If it wasnt set upthen why werent greater effort made to prevent these attacks, the 9\11 attacks are as clear a case of criminal negligence on behalf of the U.S military and intelligence communities as you are ever likely to see. Incompetence is the bare minimum. The richest and best resourced communities in the world and they'll have you believe that some tin pot dictator penetrated U.S security under those circumstances. I believe it is proper to question what happened given what we've learned. Even George Bush was re-elected after these events. A man hailed for his lack of intellect.
An inside Job is a whole other level but in my view it is completely reasonable to question why the attacks were allowed to happen and why nobody in america was ever held accountable in a meaningful way.0 -
This show on History channel is excellent. Maybe the best I've seen on 9/11. You have to go back to the late 80s really to understand it.
Spoiler - it wasn't a US government conspiracy.
https://www.history.co.uk/shows/road-to-9110 -
This show on History channel is excellent. Maybe the best I've seen on 9/11. You have to go back to the late 80s really to understand it.
Spoiler - it wasn't a US government conspiracy.
https://www.history.co.uk/shows/road-to-911
Mike West debunks are successfully rebuked online, but of course i can't respond, so you guys can keep lying over and over again.
Nobody on 9/11 Skeptic forums has even touched this yet.There going to look very foolish, if they keep this up.
How the beams buckle? NIST modelled the wrong beam spec! Go on Metabunk and let Mike West Respond and see what he says?
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3.2.3 Lateral Support Beams Prevent Beam Buckling Figures 3.11, 3.12, 3.13, and 3.14 show our evaluation of NIST’s preliminary hypothesis, which NIST used to determine whether the shear studs on the floor beams would fail when the floor system was heated. The NIST report posits that beam G3005 buckled because its thermal 83 expansion was restrained by girder A2001. Our analysis found that this can only happen when the three lateral support beams S3007, G3007, and K3007 spanning from beam G3005 to the north exterior wall are not included in the model. While these short beams are observed in some of the figures in the NIST report, they are missing from the model(s) used in the thermal and structural analyses shown in the report. It is important to realize that the lateral support beams have a significant effect and therefore should not have been omitted from the model(s). In addition, the NIST report describes the response of beam G3005 based on the wrong size beam. Erection drawing E12/13 (Frankel Steel Limited, 1985) shows a W21x44 for G3005 and a W24x55 for the four adjacent beams (K3004, C3004, B3004, and A3004). The erection drawing shows G3005 framing into the wind girder. However, the NIST report shows analysis results for G3005 based on a W24x55, not a W21x44
http://ine.uaf.edu/media/222439/uaf_wtc7_draft_report_09-03-2019.pdf0 -
Mike is clueless about why a hypothetical model has a southeast tipping effect.
Hulsey explained it here. Can you find this explantation on Mike Forum, i can't.
Based on these analyses, we found that Columns 79, 80, and 81 did not fail at the lower floors of the building (e.g., from Floor 6 to 13 or Floor 13 to 21). We found that the failure of Columns 79, 80, and 81 at the lower floors of the building would cause the building to tilt dramatically to the east, which would have been observed in the videos but was not, and that it would not cause the east penthouse to collapse, because the intact portions of Columns 79, 80, and 81 above where the columns failed would still support the penthouse. On the other hand, we found that the failure of Columns 79, 80, and 81 at the upper floors of the building, especially at Floor 45 all the way up to the penthouse, would cause the penthouse to collapse into the building as observed, while causing minimal movement of the exterior. It appears, therefore, that Columns 79, 80, and 81 failed at the upper floors of the building.
Based on this analysis, we found that a simultaneous failure of all core columns would
cause the building to tip to the southwest. We attribute this behaviour to WTC 7 having fewer
exterior columns on its south side than on its north side and on the reported damage to columns
on the southwest corner caused by the impact of debris from the collapse of WTC 1 — damage
that we included in our model.
We can also derive from this analysis that even if the horizontal progression of core
column failures asserted by NIST, Arup/Nordenson, and Weidlinger had somehow occurred,
leaving the exterior standing as a hollow shell momentarily, it would still not result in the
observed straight-down collapse.0 -
Notice Mike avoids this- fires could not have caused weakening or displacement of structural members capable of initiating any of the hypothetical local failures alleged to have triggered the total collapse of the building, nor could any local failures, even if they had occurred, have triggered a sequence of failures that would have resulted in the observed total collapse.
Hulsey discussed why all this was not possible due to fire. Mike pretends Hulsey jumped through hoops and just created a finite element model out of nothing.
Hulsey debunked NIST thermal expansion heat failure.
Hulsey actually did show why the Penthouse would stop where it did.
Mike does not debunk Hulsey connection analyse assumptions- he complaining about a model
Mike West failure, the model is hypothetical, and actual global model sim is a separate video.
Mike also claims the Hulsey model did not break at the base, false again.
Seen here, it did.
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Hulseys model differs from the real video. Its as clear as day.
Hulsey is a fraud.0 -
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Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »It does not, here the video comparsion., 40 seconds in.
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Penthouse collapse doesn't match.
Hes a fraud.0 -
Cheerful Spring you’re still banned from 9/11 and this is not the subforum.
don’t post in this thread again.0 -
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So on the basis that Fraud Hulseys report is a total cobblers, as per below link, we can now add 9/11 to one of the theories that isn't real.
https://www.metabunk.org/sept-3-2019-release-of-hulseys-wtc7-draft-report.t10890/
They can't even provide honest valid evidence to show WT7 came down from something other than fire never mind form a coherent theory about who, why, what, when and so on. 18 years later.
There was no conspiracy. Case closed.0 -
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Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »Someone has to debunk this nonsense. I not allowed to debunk Nal ridiculous stance about the Penthouse. Fine later, continue the silliness..
That’s your own self-inflicted problem. You willfully ignored a warning that you were told in advance would result in a ban. This is the last post about the matter. Don’t respond to this post in thread, if you have anything else to say PM it to me, you have already been told not to post in this thread.0
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