Schooled by an E-bike

E bikes are a lot more popular in Europe and I used to regularly be passed by them on a few climbs when I lived in Zurich.

grogi wrote: »

you have license to do it
training
qualification -
insurance

Maybe Road Tax also?

grogi wrote:

Yes, forgot about that.

Whooosh

1bryan wrote: »

the average speed of a dublin commute by bike is around 19km/h. So a limit of 30km/h is a ridiculous suggestion

I have not seen too much complaint about the 32.2km/hr (20mph) limit in the US, certainly not claims that it is ridiculously fast.

I am faster commuting on a clapped out single speed (broken gears!) hybrid than on my ebike, and I am not some skinny fit lad, far from it!

I have said in numerous threads that if the limit was 30 or 32.2km/hr then many would be happy with that and not bother paying to getting the bike derestricted, and the warranty risk etc.

When looking at average speed figures they will dip hugely due to all the stops on a commute, you can see this if people post graphs. I was saying to get the average they should be getting many figures above 25 and bringing it down as 25 or 27km/hr as this is effectively what happens on a heavy ebike, unless going downhill.

Well, presumably buses, trucks and cars also go up that hill at 50+kph past those disembarking schoolkids and pose a much more momentous danger to them. I say fair play to the lady in her 60's getting out of a car and onto a bike, though she obviously needs to tackle the fags next!

1bryan wrote: »

how is that, in any way, relevant to what happens here in Ireland? Are you suggesting it's comparing like with like?

Yes, I think it is pretty similar and relevant. Not sure what you think is so utterly different that it has absolutely zero relevance. If the limit had happened to be in the UK would you also think it irrelevant? what about France? Countries often look to others to see what the situation is like, our own gov are doing this with escooters at the moment. It would be bizarre & stupid to ignore it.

1bryan wrote: »

which part of the US, specifically do you refer to? Its a big place.

all of it. I have simply not seen people commenting that the 20mph limit they have is "ridiculous". In searching there I just see the opposite, them seemingly surprised the EU limit is low.

https://www.evelo.com/blog/why-is-there-a-20mph-speed-limit-on-electric-bikes/

Twenty miles per hour may seem like a low limit; but in Europe where electric bikes are very well established, the limit is 15 mph! We get a little bit more cushion here in the US. Also keep in mind, that the average cyclist is going about 12 mph and rarely exceeds that, so the 20mph is generally a pretty sufficient.

Weird that they think people rarely go more than 12mph! again its this flawed viewing of averages, which include complete stops.

I did hear some concern about ebikes in NY, but I think it was couriers on footpaths on derestricted models. NY have legalized them, including throttled ones
https://ny.curbed.com/2019/6/17/18681910/new-york-micromobility-escooter-ebike-legalization

A pair of bills, originally introduced in April by Sen. Jessica Ramos and Assembly member Nily Rozic, will make e-bikes (both throttle and pedal-assist) and e-scooters legal in the state. The bill will allow municipalities to decide how to regulate e-scooter sharing programs.

There are a few important provisions, though: E-scooter shares won’t be allowed in Manhattan, and riders under the age of 16 won’t be allowed to be passengers on any e-bikes.

Still, micromobility advocates, and those who’ve pressed lawmakers to legalize e-bikes—whose illegality has targeted delivery workers throughout New York City—celebrated the news.

The limit here has been questioned before.
https://irishcycle.com/2015/07/08/transport-minister-questioned-on-powerful-electric-bicycles/

Electrical assisted bicycles are currently restricted to 25km/h before the motor stops helping the user from going faster, but it seems there is lobbying for change in Ireland.

A growing number of European and other bicycle manufacturers are creating fast electric bicycles which can reach speeds of up to 40km/h with little effort.

A parliamentary question asked by Clare Daly TD (Dublin North, United Left) was told that minister has no current plan to increase the speed allowed. It is unclear who Daly was asking the question for.

Deputy Daly asked: “To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if he has considered increasing the speed limits for electric pedelecs from 15 mph (25 km/h) and increasing the engine size to above 250 watts in view of the fact that the current limits were set in 1978.”

In reply, the minister for transport, Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael), wrote: “I have no proposals at this time for amending legislation in relation to pedelecs (electrically assisted bicycles). I will however keep the matter under review.”

1bryan wrote: »

I'd estimate she's doing 35-40km/h up that 6% slope.

So she is on a motorbike. If she was doing 30km/hr, like loads of other cyclists on their own steam, then I would not see it as being an issue.

Would you support a 25km/hr limit for ALL cyclists? i.e. have them breaking going downhill etc?

rubadub wrote: »

I have not seen too much complaint about the 32.2km/hr (20mph) limit in the US, certainly not claims that it is ridiculously fast.

It might not be ridiculously fast, but 30 km/h is fast in a cycle lane, especially in an assisted bike. On a downhill slope most of the lane would move fast, but in the climb they will be muuuch slower.

rubadub wrote: »

People have an issue with people pissing about on derestricted bikes, and I do think that is a direct result of the low limit. I doubt that woman in her late 60s would have bothered getting the bike derestricted and would have been happy going 30km/hr. Some are sold as 45km/hr off the shelf but usually at a higher price.

I think too many resort to derestricting, I think 30 would be good, and 45 is too high, though plenty of people on roadbikes are on capable of that on cycletracks.

People who can sustain 30 km/h on a flat are those who have done thousands of km in the saddle already. Statistically they have enough experience to know when it is safe to cycle fast. And really - not a big fraction of those in the commute-by-bike community.

If you let the assistance go above 25 km/h, you are effectively opening the high-speed cycling for those less fortunate in fitness and experience area. Horrible idea.

magicbastarder wrote: »

maintaining 45km/h on a roadbike on the flat - without wind assistance - is remarkably difficult for mere mortals. i'm reasonably fit and am comfortable up to around 33km/h (sustained), at a rough guess.

According to kreuzotter.de I need 482 watts to maintain 45kph on the flat in aero position.

When I'm doing bike training in the gym I put that amount of power out for 30 secs and I'm toast

magicbastarder wrote: »

maintaining 45km/h on a roadbike on the flat - without wind assistance - is remarkably difficult for mere mortals.

Yep, I see many do it, on slight declines and/or with wind assitance.

It would be very difficult for the average woman in her late 60s on a derestricted but otherwise road legal 250W ebike to maintain 45km/hr on the flat without wind resistance. Yet the other poster said she was flying up a hill at 45km/hr with a gradient of 6. I am not sure of the gradients I come across on steep hills but I certainly cannot sustain 25km/hr, nowhere near it, and I have heard the Bosch is actually well over the 250W limit. As I said I am not particularly fit but faster commuting on a clapped out hybrid than the ebike.

Most off the shelf ebikes have easier gearing than most road bikes, mine had the equivalent of a 37.5 tooth front ring, and 11 on the back and 27.5" wheels.

So if she is pissing up the hill smoking a cigarette at 45km/hr then not only is it derestricted it is likely some monster 2 or 3kW engine, so basically a full on electric motorbike. Her legs & chain would be smoking too with typical ebike gearing.

magicbastarder wrote: »

or else she knows nothing of the restrictions and took the bike that was sold to her, without knowing it was chipped.

Possibly, just like plenty of conmen are duping people into buying escooters.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The average commuter is going along at 15k-20k per hour.

The ones I come across are usually faster than that.

site_owner wrote: »

I don't think 25 or 30 is making much difference in terms of chipping, If people want to go faster they are usually talking about 35 or 45.

I really think it does. With the 25km/hr limit I am slower than on a crap bike, many must be the same, might depend on the roads people commute on. Once they go to the bother and expense of derestricting then, yes, certainly many will be going at 35+, just because they can and might feel they are getting value and/or fun out of the additional investment.

If they said instead of 50km/hr limits on roads they were going to restrict the sale of cars only to those automatically limited, and the limit was 40km/hr (slower than the commute in their old car) then if you could get them derestricted and there was pretty much no policing then I would guess many would be going faster than 50km/hr even though they were previously happy enough with that.

I would wonder how common it is to see people derestricing here vs the US or other places with higher limits.

rubadub wrote: »

Would you support a 25km/hr limit for ALL cyclists? i.e. have them breaking going downhill etc?

I'm not sure why you ask this. The 25kmph limit is to do with when assistance should stop? Not the speed the person on the bike should go? So, I'd imagine, even on an bike that hasn't been 'unrestricted', they can go faster than 25kmph going downhill?

What relevance has that to what speed cyclists should cycle at?

rubadub wrote: »

People have an issue with people pissing about on derestricted bikes, and I do think that is a direct result of the low limit. I doubt that woman in her late 60s would have bothered getting the bike derestricted and would have been happy going 30km/hr.

she might have been in her early 60s, hard to tell. Plus she's a smoker, and you know how those things can make you look older.

grogi wrote: »

People who can sustain 30 km/h on a flat are those who have done thousands of km in the saddle already. Statistically they have enough experience to know when it is safe to cycle fast. And really - not a big fraction of those in the commute-by-bike community.

If you let the assistance go above 25 km/h, you are effectively opening the high-speed cycling for those less fortunate in fitness and experience area. Horrible idea.

This. I'd hazard a guess that a majority of contributors in this forum fit the profile in the first paragraph above. The inexperience aspect would seem to be borne out by the increase in fatalities observed in the Netherlands, of which older men (65+) riding e-bikes make up 3/4. While they may have been riding bikes all their lives, these were probably good chunky Dutch bikes at lowish speed.

Regarding the 25km/h limit, the source EU directive 2002/24/EC doesn't make reference to why 25km/h exactly, but was probably chosen as a reasonable limit that a relatively fit individual on a decent bike could maintain. I think it's perfectly apt - it's more than enough for urban commutes, and is fine for longer commutes on more open roads. At shorter distances it's a handful of minutes, and even at an hour it's 10 minutes difference.

Bear in mind as well that if you're going to do 30km/h for an hour, you could be in for a nasty shock on the way back. If you look at the interactive model linked to by MB a few posts back, sustaining 30km/h requires about 1.6 times the power compared to 25km/h which is going to drastically reduce range - not something envisaged by the EU directive, but still something to consider