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why is wind power favoured over wave power when it comes to generating electricity?

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  • 21-02-2019 2:34pm
    #1
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭


    just wondering why wind power (as in the case of wind turbines) is in favour of producing electricity in Ireland rather than waves from ocean and even waterfalls and rivers - well it seems to me like its favoured (unless its the fact that you can only see wind turbines dotted around Ireland but that there is infrastructure that makes electricity from waves/force of water but you (I) just cannot see it ) ?

    Is it money ? - does it cost more to make equipment to make electricity from waves more than a wind turbine? or do wind turbines make more electricity from the power of wind rather than an installation can make from waves? (some of the time there is no wind and the turbines are not revovling .. but the waves always lap.

    even out to sea you have the wind turbines , but why cant wave power be used instead? - its just a thing I have been wondering for some time now.
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    #2
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,833 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Rivers first. The Shannon provides 1% of our electricity. We aren't going to find a new one every year.


    Wave machines have to survive the worst storms.
    Water is 1,000 times heavier than air.
    And seawater is fairly corrosive.
    So very expensive.

    Though the swell with the big waves follows the windy weather from the Atlantic so wave to some extent would complement wind.


    Wind has the advantage of being cheap, thanks in part to the huge numbers of wind turbines being made and installed. Tidal and wave are not mature products so the cost could come down a lot.


    Solar is also getting cheaper year by year and that's going to continue for a good while.


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    #3
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,915 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Rivers first. The Shannon provides 1% of our electricity. We aren't going to find a new one every year.


    Wave machines have to survive the worst storms.
    Water is 1,000 times heavier than air.
    And seawater is fairly corrosive.
    So very expensive.

    Though the swell with the big waves follows the windy weather from the Atlantic so wave to some extent would complement wind.


    Wind has the advantage of being cheap, thanks in part to the huge numbers of wind turbines being made and installed. Tidal and wave are not mature products so the cost could come down a lot.


    Solar is also getting cheaper year by year and that's going to continue for a good while.

    It's cheap because it doesn't replace anything. Until they sort out grid level storage wind/solar is a con. Tidal is the only reliable renewal energy but no one is doing much on it, while they continue to push wind/solar.


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    #4
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,833 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Del2005 wrote: »
    It's cheap because it doesn't replace anything. Until they sort out grid level storage wind/solar is a con. Tidal is the only reliable renewal energy but no one is doing much on it, while they continue to push wind/solar.
    All it replaces is despatchable plant like fossil fuel or hydro.

    Here we don't have much hydro so renewables and imports replace open cycle gas.

    Wind is reasonable predictable a week in advance too.

    Grid level storage is still very expensive. Both to construct and in energy terms. Add in all the losses and you could easily loose 20-25% of the energy.

    There's no point in buying and storing electricity if you can't sell what's left back at a high enough price to cover the costs of paying back the loans and running costs too.

    Still cool though. When it comes to ramping up output nothing beats pumped storage when you already have the turbines spinning in air. Dinorwig can go from 0 to 1.32GW in 12 seconds.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/eu-boost-for-plan-to-build-650m-hydro-plant-in-silvermines-1.3715885


    See
    http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/ and https://www.sem-o.com/ for general forecasts

    http://lg.sem-o.com/Pages/default.aspx - for market prices


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    #5
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,321 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    just wondering why wind power (as in the case of wind turbines) is in favour of producing electricity in Ireland rather than waves from ocean and even waterfalls and rivers - well it seems to me like its favoured (unless its the fact that you can only see wind turbines dotted around Ireland but that there is infrastructure that makes electricity from waves/force of water but you (I) just cannot see it ) ?

    Is it money ? - does it cost more to make equipment to make electricity from waves more than a wind turbine? or do wind turbines make more electricity from the power of wind rather than an installation can make from waves? (some of the time there is no wind and the turbines are not revovling .. but the waves always lap.

    even out to sea you have the wind turbines , but why cant wave power be used instead? - its just a thing I have been wondering for some time now.

    It’s favoured because it’s commercial, wave power has to be commercialised.


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    #6
    Esto Fidelis
    Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭Esto Fidelis


    I supply, drive trains for most types of industry from the gear unit, motor/generator and controls. I have worked on a few water applications but they were quite small. The problem is the Infastructure costs for these mainly remote areas and the RIO. Some old grain mills have been converted but your looking at low kw’s, the wave effect causes variable inputs that need to be accounted for in the drive train and most of the calculations are assumptions so equipment can be troublesome if experienced engineers are involved they can design good systems but the wind side of things are much further advanced and this is because world wide wave or tidal is just more difficult.


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    #7
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,906 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    ted1 wrote: »
    It’s favoured because it’s commercial, wave power has to be commercialised.

    and is a fair way off it too.


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    #8
    grumpymunster
    Registered Users Posts: 7,603 ✭✭✭grumpymunster


    ted1 wrote: »
    It’s favoured because it’s commercial, wave power has to be commercialised.

    By and large that is about it, the optimum equipment for wave energy has yet to be defined so lags behind wind and other renewable's in that sense (wind and now PV are maturing though PV has scope for higher efficiencies). Ireland is in one of the prime world locations to benefit from wave power along with basically countries with uninterrupted frontage to an Ocean and strong winds (oddly China and Japan are investing heavily in wave technology though not in particularly good wave energy regions). Scotland is investing heavily in this technology to their credit.

    To achieve maximum energy from waves the water needs to be over 50m deep so offshore clearly which then leads to the main problems what type of generating equipment, reliable generating equipment and connection to the grid (near or onshore is clearly easier from a technical aspect but has much lower usable energy it also has to be able to overcome damage from breaking waves which is not such an issue in deep water).

    It would be prudent for the government to look seriously at this, it is very difficult for sure but it has useful benefits such as when traditional solar energy is at its lowest in midwinter potential from wave is at its highest so is very complimentary when looking at renewable energy balancing.


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    #9
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    grumpymunster wrote: »
    By and large that is about it, the optimum equipment for wave energy has yet to be defined so lags behind wind and other renewable's in that sense (wind and now PV are maturing though PV has scope for higher efficiencies). Ireland is in one of the prime world locations to benefit from wave power along with basically countries with uninterrupted frontage to an Ocean and strong winds (oddly China and Japan are investing heavily in wave technology though not in particularly good wave energy regions). Scotland is investing heavily in this technology to their credit.

    To achieve maximum energy from waves the water needs to be over 50m deep so offshore clearly which then leads to the main problems what type of generating equipment, reliable generating equipment and connection to the grid (near or onshore is clearly easier from a technical aspect but has much lower usable energy it also has to be able to overcome damage from breaking waves which is not such an issue in deep water).

    It would be prudent for the government to look seriously at this, it is very difficult for sure but it has useful benefits such as when traditional solar energy is at its lowest in midwinter potential from wave is at its highest so is very complimentary when looking at renewable energy balancing.

    There are two different aspects to generating energy from the sea. One is tidal the other is wave.

    Currently in Scotland there are trials underway but only really for tidal as it is much further advanced.

    Tidal power is where there is a strong current for example between two islands or the mainland and offshore islands. In this case, a turbine is deployed underwater in the channel either floating or tethered to the seafloor as the tide goes in and out, the turbine turns and electricity is produced. Here are some of the commercial trials underway.

    http://www.hi-energy.org.uk/renewables/tidal-energy.htm

    Getting power from waves is very much still in the test phase. Here is what is underway at the moment

    http://www.hi-energy.org.uk/Renewables/Wave-Energy.htm


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    #10
    grumpymunster
    Registered Users Posts: 7,603 ✭✭✭grumpymunster


    Yea I was thinking mainly of solar as the question asked about wave power. Tidal is interesting for sure but Ireland is not as well serviced from a tidal aspect when compared to wave but while the moon is there we will have tides which is good. Tidal turbines are easier to maintain compared to wave energy I dare say.
    One thing for certain is there is a lot of energy in the Oceans which though difficult to capture have a lot to offer.


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    #11
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,833 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    grumpymunster wrote: »
    Yea I was thinking mainly of solar as the question asked about wave power. Tidal is interesting for sure but Ireland is not as well serviced from a tidal aspect when compared to wave but while the moon is there we will have tides which is good. Tidal turbines are easier to maintain compared to wave energy I dare say.
    One thing for certain is there is a lot of energy in the Oceans which though difficult to capture have a lot to offer.
    Go to Italy if you want to see tiny tides. Ireland is one of the best places for tidal.

    Global-tidal-ranges-C-2015-NASA-Goddard-Space-Flight-Center-NASA-Jet-Propulsion.png

    Whatever happened to the 300MW tidal up north ?

    But yes tidal wouldn't have to withstand the same sort of storms as wave, and yes maintenance can be made a lot easier and cheaper by having turbines that can be raised out of the water, like the test ones.


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