C.I. Leisure Licence Price increase?

eeeee · 03-12-2020 9:31pm

cletus wrote: »

Thanks for the responses to my specific question. I cycle solo about 80% of the time, the other 20% is done with, at most, two other people.

I'm not a member of a club, and I've never entered an organised cycling event of any kind.

It would seem CI membership/insurance has little to offer.

Covers you training on your own.

I had a very, very, very close call this eve on the bike on my commute this eve, I was glad of it if things had turned out differently.
(My commute is part of my training and I have a full competition license)

ednwireland · 03-12-2020 9:59pm

grrrrrrrr ive just paid our club affiliation and try and navigate the new club portal, cant see any club information everything seems to be wiped, honestly if this is CI idea of "improvement" . at this point hthey can take it and shove it where the sun doesnt shine it would be great if someone had tested it

nilhg · 03-12-2020 11:39pm

ednwireland wrote: »

grrrrrrrr ive just paid our club affiliation and try and navigate the new club portal, cant see any club information everything seems to be wiped, honestly if this is CI idea of "improvement" . at this point hthey can take it and shove it where the sun doesnt shine it would be great if someone had tested it

To be charitable there are a lot of teething troubles, some of them seem to stem from decisions made by Ci itself. We seem to be currently stuck in a loop whereby we need 6 members to renew before the officers can access the club management pages, but because there seems to be an error which CI insist the officers fix on the management pages no one can renew....

07Lapierre · 03-12-2020 11:54pm

eeeee wrote: »

Covers you training on your own.

I had a very, very, very close call this eve on the bike on my commute this eve, I was glad of it if things had turned out differently.
(My commute is part of my training and I have a full competition license)

Don’t think so. The insurance only covers you while participating in CI sanctioned events.

Edit: you are covered while training , but not sure commuting counts. http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership

eeeee · 04-12-2020 12:02am

07Lapierre wrote: »

Don’t think so. The insurance only covers you while participating in CI sanctioned events.

Edit: you are covered while training , but not sure commuting counts. http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership

My commute is part of my training

mamax · 04-12-2020 12:10am

nilhg wrote: »

To be charitable there are a lot of teething troubles, some of them seem to stem from decisions made by Ci itself. We seem to be currently stuck in a loop whereby we need 6 members to renew before the officers can access the club management pages, but because there seems to be an error which CI insist the officers fix on the management pages no one can renew....

We had the same issue, even though club officials had 2020 membership CI insisted we take out 2021 membership just to access the portal, I haven't bothered but the other officials have, you just need 3, chairman, sec and treasurer, you can throw anyone in there BTW just to access the system

07Lapierre · 04-12-2020 12:13am

eeeee wrote: »

My commute is part of my training

My understanding is.. any solo riding is “training” as long as your wearing club kit. If not wearing club kit, it’s just commuting.

nilhg · 04-12-2020 12:24am

mamax wrote: »

We had the same issue, even though club officials had 2020 membership CI insisted we take out 2021 membership just to access the portal, I haven't bothered but the other officials have, you just need 3, chairman, sec and treasurer, you can throw anyone in there BTW just to access the system

A few myself included got through one evening, the rest are getting stripe errors, the way to try and fix the stripe error is through the management pages.

I'm just hoping that enough people will complain and they'll let at least the one's with 2021 licences have access even if 6 haven't signed up yet. They say the new rules are to make sure clubs have at least 6 members paid up for 2021 but our club had 54 last year, we're hardly going to lose 48 members over the leisure price rise.

Weepsie · 04-12-2020 12:26am

07Lapierre wrote: »

My understanding is.. any solo riding is “training” as long as your wearing club kit. If not wearing club kit, it’s just commuting.

And for unaffiliated cyclists?

07Lapierre · 04-12-2020 12:30am

Weepsie wrote: »

And for unaffiliated cyclists?

Definitely not “training” if wearing club kit!

NamelessPhil · 04-12-2020 1:14am

07Lapierre wrote: »

My understanding is.. any solo riding is “training” as long as your wearing club kit. If not wearing club kit, it’s just commuting.

It has never been the case that "club kit" is required.

From the Insurance FAQ on the CI website.
"Am I covered for cycling on my own?

Yes, provided it forms part of your ongoing training.

Am I covered for cycling with a club / group?

Yes, but participant to participant 3rd party cover is no longer included. If you are involved in an accident that involves another Cycling Ireland member then you most both claim individually under the personal accident policy.

Am I covered for cycling to / from work?

Yes, provided it forms part of your ongoing training."

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership/insurance/insurance-overview

cletus · 04-12-2020 8:19am

What a stupid way to word everything. Training for what? If I was in an accident, would I have to show my entry form for an upcoming race? Would I have to provide a training plan?

What about people who have never entered an event, can they still be "in training"?

smacl · 04-12-2020 8:55am

cletus wrote: »

What a stupid way to word everything. Training for what? If I was in an accident, would I have to show my entry form for an upcoming race? Would I have to provide a training plan?

What about people who have never entered an event, can they still be "in training"?

As a solo non-racing type I'd certainly train for a big sportive like the Wicklow 200, in that I'd have a 3 month training plan that prepared me for the day. This would be common for a lot of leisure club cyclists. Going on club rides with people who are training for an event, even if you're not, could also reasonably be considered training with them. Realistically though, the vast proportion of my cycling these days isn't training, even if it is regular strenuous exercise with a goal of keeping fit and healthy.

Mercian Pro · 04-12-2020 11:20am

cletus wrote: »

What a stupid way to word everything. Training for what? If I was in an accident, would I have to show my entry form for an upcoming race? Would I have to provide a training plan?

What about people who have never entered an event, can they still be "in training"?

No, no and yes.

Everytime I decide to hop on the bike to go somewhere rather than take the bus or car, I'm improving or maintaining my fitness level. To me, that's "training". I haven't participated in any races for decades and, despite not doing any sportives or charity events this year, every ride has contributed to my well-being and cycling ability.

Every few years this issue comes up here but, AFAIK, nobody has ever stated that they had a claim disallowed because the broker reckoned they weren't training.

nilhg · 04-12-2020 11:20am

nilhg wrote: »

A few myself included got through one evening, the rest are getting stripe errors, the way to try and fix the stripe error is through the management pages.

I'm just hoping that enough people will complain and they'll let at least the one's with 2021 licences have access even if 6 haven't signed up yet. They say the new rules are to make sure clubs have at least 6 members paid up for 2021 but our club had 54 last year, we're hardly going to lose 48 members over the leisure price rise.

So for whatever reason this morning a few more memberships were renewed and we have access to our club management pages again, waiting now to see if the club membership fees taken as part of the renewal turn up in our Stripe account.

smacl · 04-12-2020 11:29am

Mercian Pro wrote: »

No, no and yes.

Everytime I decide to hop on the bike to go somewhere rather than take the bus or car, I'm improving or maintaining my fitness level. To me, that's "training". I haven't participated in any races for decades and, despite not doing any sportives or charity events this year, every ride has contributed to my well-being and cycling ability.

Every few years this issue comes up here but, AFAIK, nobody has ever stated that they had a claim disallowed because the broker reckoned they weren't training.

So what, if anything, distinguishes training from just cycling other than the cyclist electing to call all their cycling activity to be training? If the two can't be distinguished, it sounds as if the training clause in the insurance terms is redundant.

cletus · 04-12-2020 11:41am

Training is, fundamentally, preparation for a sports performance.

I haven't competed in any sport in a number of years, I still run, lift weights, and cycle every week. I don't consider any of it "training" per say. Each session is just a workout. That's not to say that my workouts aren't targeted, or part of a longer overall plan, but I'm not "in training" for anything.

It it strikes me that, as smacl pointed out, if any time I get on a bike I can claim it's training, and I only need to self verify, what's the point of including it in the first place

07Lapierre · 04-12-2020 11:49am

NamelessPhil wrote: »

It has never been the case that "club kit" is required.

From the Insurance FAQ on the CI website.
"Am I covered for cycling on my own?

Yes, provided it forms part of your ongoing training.

Am I covered for cycling with a club / group?

Yes, but participant to participant 3rd party cover is no longer included. If you are involved in an accident that involves another Cycling Ireland member then you most both claim individually under the personal accident policy.

Am I covered for cycling to / from work?

Yes, provided it forms part of your ongoing training."

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership/insurance/insurance-overview

Thanks for clarifying that. Has any claim ever been rejected because the incident did not occur during training?

Chips Lovell · 04-12-2020 12:17pm

Honest to god, some people are never happy. I think it's to Cycling Ireland's credit that it has secured such a broad definition of training. Would you prefer if the definition was narrowed and insurance was only available in a much more limited set of circumstances?

NamelessPhil · 04-12-2020 12:20pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying that. Has any claim ever been rejected because the incident did not occur during training?

I have no idea. You'd have to ask the insurers.

mamax · 04-12-2020 12:34pm

NamelessPhil wrote: »

I have no idea. You'd have to ask the insurers.

Please don't, any old excuse will do those vultures to not pay out on a claim.

cletus · 04-12-2020 12:35pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Honest to god, some people are never happy. I think it's to Cycling Ireland's credit that it has secured such a broad definition of training. Would you prefer if the definition was narrowed and insurance was only available in a much more limited set of circumstances?

It makes no material difference to me either way. I'm not a member, nor am I likely to join. It just seems to be a strange way to set up the insurance.

Perhaps it's like this because they looked for leisure cycling to be included in the insurance and the insurance agency invloved would not agree, I don't really know. It just seems to me to be redundant to say you're only covered if you are training, but any time you're on the bike, you can say you are training.

km991148 · 04-12-2020 12:53pm

mamax wrote: »

Some people have no loyalty to clubs and have spent a lot of 2020 cycling on their own so personally I feel CI have made a mistake on this one and should have dropped the price to encourage more to cycle.

Our club is dropping their fee for 2021 as there have been no official club spins since March.

But still need to pay 3 x the price of that fee to CI to cover at least 1/3 of next year with no events and no club rides (If I want to maintain club membership).

RobFowl · 04-12-2020 1:25pm

If you are cycling with a goal of even getting marginally fitter you are training.

cletus · 04-12-2020 1:46pm

As a former fitness instructor and personal trainer, and current P.E. teacher, I would argue with your definition of training.

https://www.fitnesseducation.edu.au/blog/personal-training/how-training-for-sport-differs-from-general-exercise/

Idleater · 04-12-2020 1:51pm

cletus wrote: »

As a former fitness instructor and personal trainer, and current P.E. teacher, I would argue with your definition of training.

I saw one of those Sticky Bottle headlines the other day - rest is part of training

Might use that as an excuse to park some bikes inside.

mamax · 04-12-2020 1:54pm

km991148 wrote: »

Our club is dropping their fee for 2021 as there have been no official club spins since March.

But still need to pay 3 x the price of that fee to CI to cover at least 1/3 of next year with no events and no club rides (If I want to maintain club membership).

We have done the same, but I see some clubs still quote a fee of up to €60 for 2021

lissard · 04-12-2020 2:00pm

cletus wrote: »

As a former fitness instructor and personal trainer, and current P.E. teacher, I would argue with your definition of training.

https://www.fitnesseducation.edu.au/blog/personal-training/how-training-for-sport-differs-from-general-exercise/

Whats' to say you can't train badly

. I have only realised now how badly I trained and I was involved in competitive sport for over 20 years. In my experience fitness sessions were more a form of punishment than anything useful or sport specific.

Macy0161 · 04-12-2020 2:45pm

This is a nonsense discussion. Someone riding to get or keep fitness is training as far as I'm concerned. Beating a PR on a strava segment, or to keep up with a club spin is training for sporting performance.

CI/ Sport Ireland have answered it regarding Group Spins and Sportives anyway, by classifying them as "Training" and "Sporting Events" for Covid restrictions.

magicbastarder · 04-12-2020 3:31pm

posting on boards asking for advice counts as training, as it helps improve your performance.

07Lapierre · 04-12-2020 3:47pm

mamax wrote: »

Please don't, any old excuse will do those vultures to not pay out on a claim.

IMO that's exactly what the "Training" clause is. Its a potential "Get out of jail free" card for the insurance company.

cletus · 04-12-2020 3:50pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

This is a nonsense discussion. Someone riding to get or keep fitness is training as far as I'm concerned. Beating a PR on a strava segment, or to keep up with a club spin is training for sporting performance.

CI/ Sport Ireland have answered it regarding Group Spins and Sportives anyway, by classifying them as "Training" and "Sporting Events" for Covid restrictions.

Sure it's the internet, 90% of all the the conversations are nonsense

km991148 · 04-12-2020 4:13pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

posting on boards asking for advice counts as training, as it helps improve your performance.

And similar to that last climb after a long day in the saddle.. it can be torture :pac:

km991148 · 04-12-2020 4:14pm

mamax wrote: »

We have done the same, but I see some clubs still quote a fee of up to €60 for 2021

Ye- mine is less than half that and I will pay it anyway to support them, but CI is a bit annoying for some reason.

Macy0161 · 04-12-2020 4:54pm

Level 3, CI have issued advice that effectively means club spins can resume. 100% get why clubs may not organise now, but when restrictions eased in the summer did some clubs not resume in line with the CI advice? One club league managed to get done, plus the club champs.

CramCycle · 04-12-2020 8:06pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Level 3, CI have issued advice that effectively means club spins can resume. 100% get why clubs may not organise now, but when restrictions eased in the summer did some clubs not resume in line with the CI advice? One club league managed to get done, plus the club champs.

We managed a few club spins and half a club league, which was better than nowt.

Our club is starting spins again tomorrow, I can't see any issue with it in regards following guidelines and that outdoor transmission in small groups is to my knowledge, virtually zero. I won't be there I'll admit but I was anto social before Covid, not going to change now.

TGD · 04-12-2020 8:35pm

cletus wrote: »

As a former fitness instructor and personal trainer, and current P.E. teacher, I would argue with your definition of training.

https://www.fitnesseducation.edu.au/blog/personal-training/how-training-for-sport-differs-from-general-exercise/

Says he, quoting 'the Australian Fitness Academy' (established in 1993) - right ...

TGD · 04-12-2020 8:42pm

Hey lads, you can 'train' just to keep fit, just to be healthy, etc, etc.
Your 'training plan' can involved a 30 min. commute twich a day or whatever.
Don't be put down by people who take themselves a little too seriously because the are riding to get a bit fitter for some oul sportive or race or race or something, as opposed do just riding (sorry - 'training') to getting fitter/healthier.

cletus · 04-12-2020 8:47pm

TGD wrote: »

Says he, quoting 'the Australian Fitness Academy' (established in 1993) - right ...

I linked to the article above because it was the first one I came across that gave a simple breakdown of the differences between exercise for health related fitness, and training sports related fitness components for competition.
It is very obviously not an in depth peer reviewed study, but it does highlight to some degree the distinction I was drawing earlier about doing a workout or training.

Is there some part of the very simple and straightforward article above that you take issue with?

Or is it my claim to have worked in fitness industry or as a PE teacher?

Either way this thread has probably been derailed enough, so if you'd like to answer any of the questions, or continue the discussion further, I'm happy to go to pm

saccades · 04-12-2020 10:49pm

From the CI annual general report 2017.
"The challenge for 2017 is to more actively promote membership across the various areas we are involved in and to address the significant churn rate (i.e. members joining for a year and not renewing) among leisure members which is currently running at 40+%. Many of our initiatives planned for 2017 are aimed at addressing these two issues"

From the CI annual general report 2019. (As membership plummets across the board by 15% wiping out all the gains from 2014).

"The board is not satisfied that memberships should be in decline and recruitment and retention must remain at the centre of all activity in the federation"

CI hikes up all the license fees except the Road racing.

smacl · 05-12-2020 7:49pm

saccades wrote: »

"The board is not satisfied that memberships should be in decline and recruitment and retention must remain at the centre of all activity in the federation"

[Naval gazing]Given that we've now so many people out cycling that the bike shops have been running out of stock, and that CI have no competing organisation, one would expect membership numbers to be soaring. It does make me wonder if CI have the imagination to promote and nourish the growth of cycling in this country beyond the remit of road cycling as a sport because that growth is most definitely there. Personally, I don't really care about the whole insurance thing either way but as a keen and enthusiastic cyclist would love to support and be part of a body that nurtured cycling in a much more general sense. It is without a doubt a great time to be on two wheels in Ireland and while the government is chucking money at cycling infrastructure and other more vague ways of promoting cycling the whole thing does feel that bit headless. Like many here, I'd rather be out on my bike than dealing with this stuff, which no doubt is a part of the problem. Ireland is a great country to cycle in and I reckon with a bit more imagination it could be truly world beating. [/Naval gazing]

magicbastarder · 05-12-2020 8:00pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

posting on boards asking for advice counts as training, as it helps improve your performance.

caveat: that depends on you getting good advice, clearly.

cletus · 05-12-2020 8:02pm

Are there similar bodies to CI around the world (or even just Europe) who would support cycling in a general sense, rather than the sport of road cycling, like you've suggested?

Would many of the people who cycle in, say, Holland be members of the Dutch equivalent of CI?

magicbastarder · 05-12-2020 8:52pm

smacl wrote: »

[Naval gazing]

Seth Brundle · 05-12-2020 9:46pm

smacl wrote: »

[Naval gazing]Given that we've now so many people out cycling that the bike shops have been running out of stock, and that CI have no competing organisation, one would expect membership numbers to be soaring. It does make me wonder if CI have the imagination to promote and nourish the growth of cycling in this country beyond the remit of road cycling as a sport because that growth is most definitely there. Personally, I don't really care about the whole insurance thing either way but as a keen and enthusiastic cyclist would love to support and be part of a body that nurtured cycling in a much more general sense. It is without a doubt a great time to be on two wheels in Ireland and while the government is chucking money at cycling infrastructure and other more vague ways of promoting cycling the whole thing does feel that bit headless. Like many here, I'd rather be out on my bike than dealing with this stuff, which no doubt is a part of the problem. Ireland is a great country to cycle in and I reckon with a bit more imagination it could be truly world beating. [/Naval gazing]

Aside from me needing membership in order to join my club, I wouldn't have joined CI. Apart from a €20 voucher with CSS, I can't think of anything I've used. The insurance will be good should I need it (hopefully not) but as an organisation, what are they doing for the likes of me to justify the fee?

Oberkon · 06-12-2020 12:19am

The 12.5% vip discount with the cycle superstore By Signing up to cycling Ireland Was a no brainier to me . Saved a few hundred euro on a rothar by simply signing up the day before to a CI leisure license. Was well happy with it to be honest

C.I. Leisure Licence Price increase?

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