[tabbey]

Following Irish independence in 1922, were RIC pensions paid by the Irish government, or from Westminster?

[pinkypinky]

I don't know but I doubt the Free State coughed up for them.

[pedroeibar1]

From memory it was HM Govt. and many families had moved to England. I know between 1911 and 1925 Tipperary lost 46 per cent of its Protestant population, many being soldiers and RIC. I think there is info in Gemma Clarke's book on the Big House Burnings.

[Peregrinus]

Originally Posted by pedroeibar1

From memory it was HM Govt. and many families had moved to England. I know between 1911 and 1925 Tipperary lost 46 per cent of its Protestant population, many being soldiers and RIC. I think there is info in Gemma Clarke's book on the Big House Burnings.

The RIC was largely Catholic, except at the senior levels. It would amaze me if a huge proportion of the Protestant population of Tipperary were serving in the crown forces.

But I think it's more credible that a significant chunk of those who left were associated with the forces. There was a similar decline in the Protestant population of Cork between 1911 and 1926, and I recall reading a statistical analysis that found that most of those who had left by 1926 were not from Cork; they had come there in connection with their employment, mostly government employment, and their migration out of the county was a response to the change in that employment.

And the same could be true of Tipperary. Tipperary had a significant garrison with a number of military barracks, and by 1926 these had either been handed over to the Free State Army or closed completely.

[pedroeibar1]

Originally Posted by Peregrinus

The RIC was largely Catholic, except at the senior levels. It would amaze me if a huge proportion of the Protestant population of Tipperary were serving in the crown forces.

But I think it's more credible that a significant chunk of those who left were associated with the forces. There was a similar decline in the Protestant population of Cork between 1911 and 1926, and I recall reading a statistical analysis that found that most of those who had left by 1926 were not from Cork; they had come there in connection with their employment, mostly government employment, and their migration out of the county was a response to the change in that employment.

And the same could be true of Tipperary. Tipperary had a significant garrison with a number of military barracks, and by 1926 these had either been handed over to the Free State Army or closed completely.

In May 1922 HMG established the Irish Distress Committee which by 1926 had been renamed the Irish Grants Committee and was dealing with about 20,000 claims from usually ex-service or ex-RIC men and their families who had fled to Britain because they were perceived to have been loyal to the British regime in Ireland. There are many records of personal threats against former personnel.

Between 1911 and 1926 the Protestant population of Ireland dropped by 33% compared to a total pop. decline of 5%. Arguably there was a 100,000 drop in minority religions in the 26 Counties, of which about 25% was Army & RIC and their dependents. (See Enda Delaney, Demography, State and Society, McGill-QUP).

A big issue with accurate stats is that the 1921 census was dropped (due to civil unrest) and the 1926 one will not be released until 2027.

[tabbey]

Originally Posted by pinkypinky

I don't know but I doubt the Free State coughed up for them.

This is what I would have thought initially also.

However, a sister of my grandfather was married to a civil servant in Ceylon (Sri Lanka). After his death, my grand aunt received a pension from the Ceylonese government, which it appears was still paid by it after Sri Lankan independence, in 1948.
I know about this because when delays or worse cropped up during the 1950s, Liam Cosgrave, as Minister for External Affairs, raised the matter on her behalf with the Sri Lankan foreign minister, when the latter visited Dublin.

Perhaps therefore, the Irish government had an obligation to pay RIC pensions, but if so,would it have been prompt in paying, or would it have been inclined to cut the pension. After all, old age pensions were cut between 1924 and 1928, although due to deflation, pensioners could buy more with their nine shillings in 1924 than they could buy with ten shillings five years earlier.

[Peregrinus]

I'm open to correction here, but I think that throughout its history pay and pensions for the RIC were always handled by the Paymaster General's office in London and not by any government department or office in Ireland. Unlike in Britain, where policing was primarily the responsibility of local governments, policing in Ireland was tightly controlled from London because it was seen as central to the maintenance of the authority of the national government during times of political turbulence.

Thus in 1922, when the force was disbanded, there was no decision to "transfer" the burden of RIC pensions to London. It had always been in London. And any suggestiong that the Irish Free State should be responsible for the legacy costs of the RIC would have seemed at the time to make about as much sense as a suggestion that it should be responsible for the legacy costs of the disbanded Irish regiments of the British Army.

[donaghs]

Everything I've read seems to say the Free State did take on the RIC pension burden, not enthusiastically, but as a condition worked out in the Treaty.

Possibly it was reasoned that they were they were the police for of Ireland, made up of Irishmen, and would be for some time after the Treaty. Whereas the British Army, Irish regiments included, were to evacuate the Free State permanently and quickly.

Wikipedia (not "Gospel" I know):
"Some former RIC men joined the Garda Síochána. These included men who had earlier assisted IRA operations in various ways. Some retired and the Irish Free State paid their pensions as provided for in the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty agreement. Others, still faced with threats of violent reprisals,[22] emigrated with their families to Great Britain or other parts of the Empire, most often to police forces in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Southern Rhodesia" and Palestine.

http://www.ucd.ie/pages/95/Brennan.html
"However, in spite of his vociferous objections the reality was that the terms were not ungenerous particularly in light of the fact that the British government had to be careful not to alienate the new government in Ireland by granting unreasonable terms as it had been agreed that 75% of the pensions ultimately would be paid by the Irish Free State. (The other 25% was the responsibility of the Northern Government)."

But did it include Auxilliaries and "Black and Tans"/temporary constables? Apparently not:
https://www.qub.ac.uk/home/Research/...,517191,en.pdf
"Some of the compensation introduced by the first government of the Irish Free State was obligatory under the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
This was most notable in the case of members of the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) who were pensioned after the disbandment of the force in 1922. This committed the government to pay fair compensation on terms not less favourable than those accorded by the [Government of Ireland] Act of 1920 to judges, officials, members of Police Forces and other Public Servants who are discharged by it or who retire in consequence of the change of Government effected in pursuance hereof.’ The Irish liability did not extend to the Black and Tans or Auxiliaries who were the responsibility of the British government."

All the RIC records though, including pensions, seem to be held in Kew in the UK.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/h...-constabulary/

[tabbey]

Thank you for that contribution.

Looking at the linked assistance from the national archives @ Kew, chapter 6.4, Formation and Disbandment, they say that pensions continued to be paid by the Paymaster General in London. Whether there was a financial contribution from Dublin under the treaty may be the case, but this warrants further investigation.

We all know about partition and the oath of allegiance, but does anyone know where other details of the treaty are comprehensively listed?

[Peregrinus]

Your actual treaty. The arrangements mentioned by donaghs are in Article X.

[Peregrinus]

And here's the text of a financial settlement arrived at in 1926 between the UK and IFS governments which covers a variety of issues. Inj para 11 it confirms the 75% deal that Donaghs mentions.

[tabbey]

Originally Posted by Peregrinus

And here's the text of a financial settlement arrived at in 1926 between the UK and IFS governments which covers a variety of issues. Inj para 11 it confirms the 75% deal that Donaghs mentions.

Thanks for that clarification, it looks like the Irish government paid 75% of RIC pension costs, presumably on the basis that NI must have had 25% of the liability. But the pensioners got their money through the UK government.

difp is a website I was hitherto unfamiliar with, so another source to remember.

[pinkypinky]

Excellent research everyone!

[BalcombeSt4]

Originally Posted by Peregrinus

The RIC was largely Catholic, except at the senior levels. It would amaze me if a huge proportion of the Protestant population of Tipperary were serving in the crown forces.

But I think it's more credible that a significant chunk of those who left were associated with the forces. There was a similar decline in the Protestant population of Cork between 1911 and 1926, and I recall reading a statistical analysis that found that most of those who had left by 1926 were not from Cork; they had come there in connection with their employment, mostly government employment, and their migration out of the county was a response to the change in that employment.

And the same could be true of Tipperary. Tipperary had a significant garrison with a number of military barracks, and by 1926 these had either been handed over to the Free State Army or closed completely.

Ah yes, but if you read any revisionist accounts of why the Protestant population fell so much it was because they were forced into exile by the IRA at the point of a Lee Enfield rifle, despite never providing any credible evidence for this.

[Del.Monte]

Originally Posted by BalcombeSt4

Ah yes, but if you read any revisionist accounts of why the Protestant population fell so much it was because they were forced into exile by the IRA at the point of a Lee Enfield rifle, despite never providing any credible evidence for this.

Well I can assure that many were threatened and I know of two family members (former RIC) that went from Co.Tipperary to the USA where their descendants still are.